Hey how bout the weak ass Big Ten?? 2 in the Final Four!!!!!

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:11 am

JackDog wrote:
ScoopBrady wrote:
FloridaGators wrote:Wisconsin plays tough. They are hard to blow out, but they are weak on the inside, as witnessed by May's 29.
Talk about Mr. Contradiction. Wasn't you who said the following?

FloridaGators wrote:I just would like to see Wisconsin actually play a team seeded higher than them. I think they lose convincingly.
Which is it? Are they hard to blow out or will they lose convincingly to a higher-seeded team? I would have never guessed that you would act just as ignorant as Parker FG. That's pretty sad.
He also forgot Minnesota,Iowa and a self imposed Ohio St. The Big Ten is far from a 3 team conference.

They are far from a 3 team conference but they are far from the best conference due to the bottom 5. I will still stick with that. The problem is like Parker and Kaz is that FG has joined them in the group of "if I am wrong simply change the subject" line of posting.

I don't recall this being about how great the BIG 10 is as a whole. It is simply about what the Big 10 teams in the tournament have done. I ate my crow and now it is time for FG to dine on his. Yet when Wisconsin shows up and hangs with NC and Michigan St beats Kentucky all FG is left with is changing the subjects and the if's, and's or but's.

Just look at this comment...

Michigan State's experience has carried them. They are a tough team, but I think UNC powers past them.

Why Michigan St just beat Duke (1 seed) and Kentucky (2 seed) back to back. If I recall correctly CBS mentioned that was the first time any team has ever beaten both of those teams in the same tourney. UNC on the other hand had Villinova (5 seed) and Wisconsin (6 seed) and struggled with each.

Could they (Wisconsin) handle Boone/Villanueva/Nelson or Simien? Hard to tell. I don't think they get there to play UNC, if Bucknell doesn't shock the world.

Where is his outcry that if NC had to play tougher, higher seeded teams they might not have made it to the final four? Would those powerhouses from Kansas and Uconn given them a tougher challenge? The way FG talks about Kansas and UConn I am shocked the NCAA did not just cancel the tournament and have those two teams play for the championship.

Like Scoop said... One contradiction after another.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:03 am

bdoughty wrote:
JackDog wrote:
ScoopBrady wrote: Talk about Mr. Contradiction. Wasn't you who said the following?
Which is it? Are they hard to blow out or will they lose convincingly to a higher-seeded team? I would have never guessed that you would act just as ignorant as Parker FG. That's pretty sad.
He also forgot Minnesota,Iowa and a self imposed Ohio St. The Big Ten is far from a 3 team conference.
They are far from a 3 team conference but they are far from the best conference due to the bottom 5. I will still stick with that. The problem is like Parker and Kaz is that FG has joined them in the group of "if I am wrong simply change the subject" line of posting.

I don't recall this being about how great the BIG 10 is as a whole. It is simply about what the Big 10 teams in the tournament have done. I ate my crow and now it is time for FG to dine on his. Yet when Wisconsin shows up and hangs with NC and Michigan St beats Kentucky all FG is left with is changing the subjects and the if's, and's or but's.

Just look at this comment...

Michigan State's experience has carried them. They are a tough team, but I think UNC powers past them.
Why Michigan St just beat Duke (1 seed) and Kentucky (2 seed) back to back. If I recall correctly CBS mentioned that was the first time any team has ever beaten both of those teams in the same tourney. UNC on the other hand had Villinova (5 seed) and Wisconsin (6 seed) and struggled with each.

Could they (Wisconsin) handle Boone/Villanueva/Nelson or Simien? Hard to tell. I don't think they get there to play UNC, if Bucknell doesn't shock the world.
Where is his outcry that if NC had to play tougher, higher seeded teams they might not have made it to the final four? Would those powerhouses from Kansas and Uconn given them a tougher challenge? The way FG talks about Kansas and UConn I am shocked the NCAA did not just cancel the tournament and have those two teams play for the championship.

Like Scoop said... One contradiction after another.

I saw you had a coke with your crow.

You'll get no argument from me on any of your points. I think they are all valid. What's so hard about saying you were wrong? God knows I did after Ohio St and Texas beat Michigan this past football season. And who can forget the MLB Playoffs and World Series.

If you going to talk $hit you have got to be man enough to eat it. I guess that's the problem with all the above mentioned posters. They are still waitng for their nuts to drop.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:07 am

FG, why can't you just admit that either a) You are trolling or b) you have no idea what the hell you are talking about? It's obvious to everyone else here that it's one of the two, so why don't you just admit it to yourself already?

I used to think you were pretty sensible, but this thread has me wondering what college (and all the drinking perhaps) has done to your brain.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:19 am

How can anyone dismiss Michigan State at this point?

Izzo is the best coach remaining in the tournament. Elite Eight in what, five of the last seven years, including a national title? That's better than the "championship coach" Rick Pitino and better than Roy Williams.

I know people don't put much into seeding, and that's probably legitimate this year when Washington -- f*cking Washington! -- was a No. 1 seed and Louisville was only a No. 4.

But look at the seeds each of the Final Four had to beat to get into the shadow of the Arch:

Illinois: 16, 9, 12, 3
Louisville: 13, 5, 1, 7
Carolina: 16, 9, 5, 6
Michigan St.: 12, 13, 1, 2

The toughest seed Carolina has faced is a 5. A 5! Meanwhile, Michigan State has beaten a 1 and 2, and those were legitimate top seeds, unlike Washington.

And Gators is trying to tell us that N.C. will coast past Michigan State? Maybe Gators is the bastard love child of Billy Packer and Dick Vitale, after all.

Michigan State over Illinois in an all-Big 10 final. Gators probably won't even watch since the Big 10 is such a second-rate conference.

Take care,
PK

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:47 am

My problem with FG's arguments here is not the bashing but rather the ignorance involved within his bashing. Say all you want about how the Badgers got lucky in their draw, and I don't think anyone could argue that facing Bucknell and NC State instead of Kansas and UConn is better. However, there is something to be said for taking care of your business, something the Badgers did very well.

In fact, many of the national pundits (actually all of them that I saw) predicted that the Badgers would get taken out on Friday by NC State. They didn't. Then most people thought that Carolina would roll past them without having to break a sweat. The Tarheels won, but hardly in easy fashion.

If you're going to talk s*** about a team like Wisconsin, please at least know what the hell you're talking about. FG mentioned time and again that a team with a frontcourt like Wisconsin has wouldn't be able to match up well with UConn and Kansas, let alone UNC, so it was much better to be able to play perimeter-oriented teams. The strength of the Badgers is the frontcourt. Going into this season they lost Devin Harris to the top ten of the NBA Draft and his projected replacement Boo Wade. They ended up playing a guy with an injured knee (Sharif Chambliss) and a sophomore with very limited experience (Kammron Taylor) at point. They also played a former walk-on (Clayton Hanson) at shooting guard along with a true freshman (Michael Flowers). The frontcourt, however, featured all Big Ten Mike Wilkinson and a solid Zach Morley. Oh, and another guy named Alando Tucker who had a pretty good game. Bring in Ray Nixon, Andreas Helmingk and Brian Butch from the bench and it is the frontcourt that is the core of this team, not the perimeter.

Did Sean May kill them yesterday? Yes, but he's been killing everyone for the past six weeks. I'm damn proud of how they played yesterday and damn proud of their season. They played Carolina's tempo yesterday and it was a one possession game with under two minutes to play.

So be a man, FG, and just admit that you're thoroughly biased against these Big 10 teams and we'll all be happy. Oh, and by the way, with the way UNC plays defense, they're going out on Saturday against Michigan State. MSU has the depth to play with Carolina and they have a guy inside in Paul Davis who can not only check May a little when UNC has the ball, but who will force May to play defense on the perimeter where he will be thoroughly uncomfortable. Go Spartans. Go Illini.

Mike

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:09 am

Badger_Fan wrote:My problem with FG's arguments here is not the bashing but rather the ignorance involved within his bashing. Say all you want about how the Badgers got lucky in their draw, and I don't think anyone could argue that facing Bucknell and NC State instead of Kansas and UConn is better. However, there is something to be said for taking care of your business, something the Badgers did very well.

In fact, many of the national pundits (actually all of them that I saw) predicted that the Badgers would get taken out on Friday by NC State. They didn't. Then most people thought that Carolina would roll past them without having to break a sweat. The Tarheels won, but hardly in easy fashion.

If you're going to talk s*** about a team like Wisconsin, please at least know what the hell you're talking about. FG mentioned time and again that a team with a frontcourt like Wisconsin has wouldn't be able to match up well with UConn and Kansas, let alone UNC, so it was much better to be able to play perimeter-oriented teams. The strength of the Badgers is the frontcourt. Going into this season they lost Devin Harris to the top ten of the NBA Draft and his projected replacement Boo Wade. They ended up playing a guy with an injured knee (Sharif Chambliss) and a sophomore with very limited experience (Kammron Taylor) at point. They also played a former walk-on (Clayton Hanson) at shooting guard along with a true freshman (Michael Flowers). The frontcourt, however, featured all Big Ten Mike Wilkinson and a solid Zach Morley. Oh, and another guy named Alando Tucker who had a pretty good game. Bring in Ray Nixon, Andreas Helmingk and Brian Butch from the bench and it is the frontcourt that is the core of this team, not the perimeter.

Did Sean May kill them yesterday? Yes, but he's been killing everyone for the past six weeks. I'm damn proud of how they played yesterday and damn proud of their season. They played Carolina's tempo yesterday and it was a one possession game with under two minutes to play.

So be a man, FG, and just admit that you're thoroughly biased against these Big 10 teams and we'll all be happy. Oh, and by the way, with the way UNC plays defense, they're going out on Saturday against Michigan State. MSU has the depth to play with Carolina and they have a guy inside in Paul Davis who can not only check May a little when UNC has the ball, but who will force May to play defense on the perimeter where he will be thoroughly uncomfortable. Go Spartans. Go Illini.

Mike

I agree with your whole post. It sums everything up nicely. The Badgers had a great year with the backcourt they were left with. Bo did a great job.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:24 pm

I just listened to Doug Gottlieb on the "Colin Cowherd Show" on ESPNRadio and I think he said it best. People are supposed to be shocked with the Big 10 putting two teams in the Final Four, but they did have two top 10 teams in the preseason in both Illinois and Michigan State.

Their runs to the Elite 8, along with Wisconsin's win over Northern Iowa (who should NOT have been in the tournament), Bucknell (2nd best in the Patriot League), and NC State (7-9 in the ACC, tied for 6th best record in the conference) is not as impressive as West Virginia's run to the Elite 8 nor Villanova's would be run.

Michigan State, though I still think they won't handle UNC, is full of McDonald's All Americans and seniors. They were 13-3. So this whole shock that nobody knows where it can from is something I don't understand.

If you want me to give credit to Wisconsin for giving UNC a tough game, then yes, I give credit to Wisconsin for pushing UNC and making them play their best basketball down the stretch to win the game. UNC had to make shots because the Badgers didn't quit, due to heart and great coaching.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:27 pm

Wisconsin has Zach Morley and Mike Wilkinson but they are not a frontcourt team in the truest sense. Let's be serious, those guys are jump shooters that happen to be tall and start in the frontcourt. The Badgers gameplan is never to pound the ball into those aforementioned players and try to power the ball to the hoop. It's all about running their offense and shooting the ball. If they are smart with the ball and get a good outside shot they win. They don't have a "bruiser" player, like the ones I mentioned in this thread the other day.

Morley and Wilkinson love to shoot the ball from 12+ feet, something Josh Boone, Sean May, Wayne Simien, and Shelden Williams do NOT do.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:31 pm

pk:

I highly disagree about your opinion on Tom Izzo being the strongest coach in the tournament. I place him second, by a far margin behind Rick Pitino. Rick Pitino has taken THREE teams to the Final Four. In this day and age where it is easier to maintain a top program by winning and recruiting at the same place he has been able to build up three teams.

Any coincidence that since Ricky P decided to pack up shop at Kentucky that the Wildcats haven't been to a Final Four in seven years, under Tubby Smith? Sure Tubby has taken them to the Final Four the year before that, but wasn't those Pitino's players, if I'm not mistaken.

Any coach that takes Providence, Providence to the Final Four should be credited highly.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:39 pm

FloridaGators wrote:I just listened to Doug Gottlieb on the "Colin Cowherd Show" on ESPNRadio and I think he said it best. People are supposed to be shocked with the Big 10 putting two teams in the Final Four, but they did have two top 10 teams in the preseason in both Illinois and Michigan State.

Their runs to the Elite 8, along with Wisconsin's win over Northern Iowa (who should NOT have been in the tournament), Bucknell (2nd best in the Patriot League), and NC State (7-9 in the ACC, tied for 6th best record in the conference) is not as impressive as West Virginia's run to the Elite 8 nor Villanova's would be run.

Agreed. But Wisonsin's run is much more impressive than the runs of Kansas, Boston College, Syrause, Florida, UConn, Wake Forest, Washinton, Oklahoma State, Gonzaga, and Oklahoma.

FloridaGators wrote:Michigan State, though I still think they won't handle UNC, is full of McDonald's All Americans and seniors. They were 13-3. So this whole shock that nobody knows where it can from is something I don't understand.

If you want me to give credit to Wisconsin for giving UNC a tough game, then yes, I give credit to Wisconsin for pushing UNC and making them play their best basketball down the stretch to win the game. UNC had to make shots because the Badgers didn't quit, due to heart and great coaching.

Do you get a nickel from Roy Williams every time you tickle his nuts?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:41 pm

Gators:

I stand by my call on Izzo, and I'll make the case that Roy Williams is a better coach than Pitino because he has taken two different schools to the Final Four in the last three years.

He also has revived your beloved Carolina team from its 8-21 doldrums of a few years back, even if the backbone of today's team was recruited by Doherty.

Sorry, but Pitino's one title damn near came by default. That 1996 Kentucky team was talented as hell, and Syracuse had no business even being on the same floor in the final with Kentucky in 1996, let alone playing it tough until two minutes remained.

Pitino is an excellent coach, but I don't rate him as highly as most. He has done a nice job with Louisville, but he doesn't get beat up as badly in the regular season in Conference USA if he was coaching in a supreme conference, such as your beloved ACC, for example.

Oh, one more thing: Pitino has a .750 career win-loss record in the NCAA Tournament, third-best among active coaches. Who is one of the coaches ahead of him? Tom Izzo, at .778. Coach K is No. 1 on that list.

Take care,
PK

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:49 pm

First of all, Doug Gottlieb is an idiot. He was an idiot as a player at Oklahoma State and he's an idiot now. Earlier this season he called Brian Butch the most overrated player in the Big 10 because he wasn't playing a lot of minutes and was a McDonald's All American. Butch had mono. Good call Doug.

Second of all, saying that the Badgers aren't a front-court oriented team because they don't bang the ball inside is stupid. That's basically saying that there is only one way for a forward or center to play basketball. Wilkinson hits his share of 12-15 footers, but he also has some of the best footwork in the nation down low, including any of the guys you mentioned. Just because Boone, Villanueva, Simien, etc. CAN'T hit 15 footers doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to try to.

You said that the Badgers weren't a frontcourt-oriented team when in fact that is the key to what they do.

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:52 pm

In fact, here's a quote from Luke Winn, a college basketball writer from SI.com on the website today:

It's real, Sean. You dominated frontcourt-dependent Wisconsin and its homegrown star, Mike Wilkinson, scoring the game's first two baskets, and eight of UNC's first 10 points, including a fast-break slam on a feed from Raymond Felton with 17:11 on the clock.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/w ... index.html

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:22 pm

Gators, you're falling into the same trap as 90% of the national media and judging NC (and others) by the number of McDonalds All Americans and general basketball bling. All well and good, but it ignores that they're also the most talented team that has taken entire halfs off more than any team in the country. There's more to a great team than pedigree, which is why the actually play the games rather than processing the results on paper. The results this year, and every year, bear that out pretty clearly.

And that doesn't even take into account the spurious logic in naming, and the undue weight given, to the McDonald's All Americans.

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:38 pm

I'll say right now that I really think that MSU wins Saturday night against UNC. State plays mean defense and has the guard play and depth to be able to check UNC a little. I don't think that UNC can stop anyone with Final Four talent on offense.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:48 pm

I maybe in the minority, but I don't see why anyone would feel that UNC is more talented than MSU or any of the other top 10 teams out there. Maybe it's the images of Santa Clara taking it to them, and them showing no heart in that game burned in my brain, but I have not been overly impressed with UNC this year.

BTW, Badgers, that kid Alando Tucker is fun to watch. That kid is legit, he showed a wide range of skills. And more than that, he seemed to be a real high energy guy. Fun player to watch.

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:55 am

Tucker is a very good player. He's only about 6'5" but has a real knack for getting to the basket against bigger guys. If he could extend his range to about 18 feet he would be unstoppable.

He'll be back next year along with Kammron Taylor, Michael Flowers, Brian Butch (hopefully healthy) and a freshman center named Greg Stiemsma who's a 7-footer with really good defensive skills. Ray Nixon should play pretty well next year and they have a recruit coming in from South Dakota who is big with ridiculous range. I guess he's a lot like Mike Miller. They should be very solid again next year. Hell, they've made the tourney 7 years in a row now and that is something I never though I'd see back in 1995.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:38 pm

UNC is NOT just a talented team. Have you seen Sean May's leadership? What about Raymond Felton? And Marvin Williams is the most mature freshman I've seen in quite some time. They are not only talented but well coached.

The only immature, me first player is Rashad McCants and he seems to be getting the message.

UNC is still my pick to win it all, and frankly I struggle to see how they can lose to the three final four teams. I think Villanova's hot shooting is the biggest scare they will face.

Illinois can win, sure. But the other two teams need lights out shooting and a lot of Sean May fouls.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:54 pm

FloridaGators wrote:UNC is still my pick to win it all, and frankly I struggle to see how they can lose to the three final four teams. I think Villanova's hot shooting is the biggest scare they will face.

Illinois can win, sure. But the other two teams need lights out shooting and a lot of Sean May fouls.

Open your eyes and take off the NC glasses for a second and it will be easy to see how they can lose without even getting to the final.

You don't think they were scared by being tied with Wisconsin at the half, and then being down late in the 2nd half?

I'm so glad you are somehow able to give a 28-1 a chance at beating NC.

I suppose when NC loses, you'l either make excuses or act is if it never happened. You've already made predictions in this thread that have proven to be false, and then you convienently move along to the next topic without even acknowledging you were flat out wrong.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:54 pm

FloridaGators wrote:UNC is NOT just a talented team. Have you seen Sean May's leadership? What about Raymond Felton? And Marvin Williams is the most mature freshman I've seen in quite some time. They are not only talented but well coached.

Yeah, you know, that Carmelo Anthony sure was an immature piece of sh*t while he led Syracuse to the national title as a freshman, oh, two years ago.

Marvin Williams couldn't even carry Carmelo's bag, both as a player and a leader. Hell, I remember Carmelo coming over to Boeheim and telling him to relax during a Boeheim meltdown in a game in 2002-03. That's leadership.

Gators, you need to expand and lengthen your vision of college hoop. It's getting a bit narrow and short these days. Like most young people, you see the latest and the most-hyped as the greatest, with little appreciation for history.

Take care,
PK

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:55 pm

You fail to see how they could lose? Really? How about these reasons:

1. They play hands-down the worst defense of the remaining teams. Last time I checked you need to be able to play on both ends to win it all. Carolina is a bad defensive team.

2. Roy Williams, for all he has accomplished, is the third best coach left in the tournament. I'll put him above Bruce Weber, but Pitino and Izzo are better coaches. Period.

3. As talented as UNC is they have less tournament experience than both Michigan State and Illinois. Even Louisville has more tournament experience than UNC. That is a factor.

I'm not saying that UNC can't win it, but I think it's ridiculous to say that they're a lock. I still think that MSU takes 'em down on Saturday playing good defense and getting balanced offense out of Davis, Torbert, Anderson and company.