Rumble in the Motor City

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:33 am

I just gotta add my 2 cents to the whole "thug/race" issue.

1) I am sick and tired of the overly sensitive and/or misguided people who constantly bring up race whenever a person of color is involved in an incident. Not everything is a race issue.

2) The term thug is seen as a badge of honor for guys like Artest. Like PK stated in an earlier post, it's a constant reference in certain genres of rap, and lo and bhold, Ronny is coming out with a rap album. I think it's safe to say that it won't be Fresh Prince 80s style either. They brough the term to themselves, it wasn't some KKK white trash redneck that started the term.

3) If people are so upset about troubled black NBA players being referred to as thugs, where is your outrage for white Nascar racers being referred to as rednecks?

4) Not every NBA player who is black is consider a thug or punk. I like guys like Tim Duncan & Ray Allen, who treat the game and others with respect.

On a side note, I caught a group on ESPN discussing the whole fight. ONe of the guys was Mark Jackson, my "shimmy-shake" from the Pacers a few years ago. I don't remember it exacly, but he mentioned how hard it was to hold back when people (like fans) are disrespecting you. Kind of ironic of a guy who blatantly taunted fans and other players on a constant basis to be crying about respect. Maybe that's an issue a lot of these guys have, they want everyone to respect them, but show little to none for others.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:02 pm

matthewk wrote:I just gotta add my 2 cents to the whole "thug/race" issue.

1) I am sick and tired of the overly sensitive and/or misguided people who constantly bring up race whenever a person of color is involved in an incident. Not everything is a race issue.

2) The term thug is seen as a badge of honor for guys like Artest. Like PK stated in an earlier post, it's a constant reference in certain genres of rap, and lo and bhold, Ronny is coming out with a rap album. I think it's safe to say that it won't be Fresh Prince 80s style either. They brough the term to themselves, it wasn't some KKK white trash redneck that started the term.

3) If people are so upset about troubled black NBA players being referred to as thugs, where is your outrage for white Nascar racers being referred to as rednecks?

4) Not every NBA player who is black is consider a thug or punk. I like guys like Tim Duncan & Ray Allen, who treat the game and others with respect.

On a side note, I caught a group on ESPN discussing the whole fight. ONe of the guys was Mark Jackson, my "shimmy-shake" from the Pacers a few years ago. I don't remember it exacly, but he mentioned how hard it was to hold back when people (like fans) are disrespecting you. Kind of ironic of a guy who blatantly taunted fans and other players on a constant basis to be crying about respect. Maybe that's an issue a lot of these guys have, they want everyone to respect them, but show little to none for others.

I agree 100%. Nice post.

This follows the point you made about NASCAR. I hate it when some people of my race call grown men "White Boys". That is some foul $hit and an outright attack on their manhood. But it's accepted. ESPN's Micheal Irving has used the term many times describing white players in the NFL.

He gets a pass because he's a black. If Steve Young called TO a crazy "Black Boy" he would be looking for a job. It's bull$hit.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:14 pm

wco81 wrote:The guys on sports reporters made a good point.

Artest could restrain himself from fighting back with Ben Wallace. It was the beer that really set him off. IOW, they are implying he's a coward who'd only fight guys "half his size."

Then you had Mark Jackson and some other NBA players saying they can't be "disrespected," that some words and having beer thrown crosses the line.

Some people are demanding that he be suspended for the whole season.

Meanwhile, Jermaine apparently clocked someone in the tunnel, out of sight from the cameras.

The Pacers could be decimated this year.

I also saw the show. Jason Whitlock was right IMO. Your right the Pacers are in trouble.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:09 pm

1) I am sick and tired of the overly sensitive and/or misguided people who constantly bring up race whenever a person of color is involved in an incident. Not everything is a race issue.

Cool. You are entitled to your opinion. I'm sick of tired of hearing thug and gangsta bantered about anytime anything happens in the NBA. We all have opinions.

Code: Select all

2) The term thug is seen as a badge of honor for guys like Artest.  Like PK stated in an earlier post, it's a constant reference in certain genres of rap, and lo and bhold, Ronny is coming out with a rap album.  I think it's safe to say that it won't be Fresh Prince 80s style either.  They brough the term to themselves, it wasn't some KKK white trash redneck that started the term.

Nice Generalization

3) If people are so upset about troubled black NBA players being referred to as thugs, where is your outrage for white Nascar racers being referred to as rednecks?

Um...go through my posts. When have I ever done such a thing. You seem to be suggesting two wrongs make a right. I disagree.

4) Not every NBA player who is black is consider a thug or punk. I like guys like Tim Duncan & Ray Allen, who treat the game and others with respect.

Good. Then let's start treating the bad guys in every sport the same. This topic seems to have reached a dead end. Like i said, who has disagreed about saying Ron Artest should be punished. It would nice it we could talk about people as people and use the same language for everybody. I don't call people thug, gangsta, white trash, redneck, etc, because then you are dipping into some cultural notion you have no idea about.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:14 pm

Had Artest been the sole instigator of this incident, I think he very well may be facing being banned for the season. But since Ben Wallace, an idiot fan and the Detroit Pistons are the ones who kicked it off, I think Artest will probably *just* get stuck with a suspension of record length. I still don't think Artest is the guiltiest one on his own team, much less in the arena.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:16 pm

matthewk wrote:4) Not every NBA player who is black is consider a thug or punk. I like guys like Tim Duncan & Ray Allen, who treat the game and others with respect.

You're right...they are white guys.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:16 pm

Guilty or not, I just hope all the Pacers players are still suspended for Tuesday's game.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:20 pm

reeche wrote:It would nice it we could talk about people as people and use the same language for everybody.

Reeche:

Then let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya," OK?

Seriously, I don't understand how you don't see how the black community has propagated the use of the term "thug" and "gangsta" through rap and hip-hop cultures. I don't hear many George Strait or Ozzy Osbourne tunes with those lyrics.

And if you want homogenous language used to describe peoples of all cultures, then I guess the Dixie Chicks' lyrics will read just like a rap song by Missy Elliott, right?

Different cultures use different terms. But when it's a term that seems to pertain to race, there's outrage. But when right-wing Christian conservatives are referred to as "Bible bangers," there doesn't seem to be much outrage here.

Jack nailed it: This isn't a race issue. It's an asshole issue.

P.S.: Bill Laimbeer was a thug. Feel better now?

Out,
PK

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:34 pm

pk500 wrote:
reeche wrote:It would nice it we could talk about people as people and use the same language for everybody.
Reeche:

Then let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya," OK?

Seriously, I don't understand how you don't see how the black community has propagated the use of the term "thug" and "gangsta" through rap and hip-hop cultures. I don't hear many George Strait or Ozzy Osbourne tunes with those lyrics.

And if you want homogenous language used to describe peoples of all cultures, then I guess the Dixie Chicks' lyrics will read just like a rap song by Missy Elliott, right?

Different cultures use different terms. But when it's a term that seems to pertain to race, there's outrage. But when right-wing Christian conservatives are referred to as "Bible bangers," there doesn't seem to be much outrage here.

Jack nailed it: This isn't a race issue. It's an asshole issue.

P.S.: Bill Laimbeer was a thug. Feel better now?

Out,
PK

You can call people whatever the heck you want. It's your business. I'm simply going to give my opinion on it just like everybody else does. I think it's wrong. I don't call people rednecks. I don't call people thug and gangsta. I don't call people by cultural tags. I TRY to make logical arguments. I don't always suceed but I'm more than willing to admit a mistake when I do. I've read countless NBA posts on this board where the gangsta tag was used in a discussion relating to the NBA where it had no point. Some people just want to start using it whenever they can to make a larger cultural point. So obviously there is an issue. The issue isn't that Ron Artest listens to rap music so he is a gangsta. The issue is that Ron Artest has done a lot of questionable things. I very rarely get into heated arguments on this board and personal arguments because I try to keep it rationale instead of dipping into that stuff. Somebody's else appraoch may be different. That's fine. I have a feeling the result would be different if I went around calling hockey players and NASCAR people certain derogatory stereotypes in every single post I make but I don't do that stuff anyway. Like I said, freedom of speech goes both ways. You can say what you want. I can say what I want about that. I don't expect to change your opinion on some messageboard and I'm sure the same goes the other way.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:39 pm

Kazuya wrote:Had Artest been the sole instigator of this incident, I think he very well may be facing being banned for the season. But since Ben Wallace, an idiot fan and the Detroit Pistons are the ones who kicked it off, I think Artest will probably *just* get stuck with a suspension of record length. I still don't think Artest is the guiltiest one on his own team, much less in the arena.

My guess is something like this although I'm just pulling it out of my behind.

Artest: From 20 games to the rest of the season. Somewhere in that range. I think the union will fight so I don't think the full season suspension will be enacted.

Jackson & O'Neal: 10 Games like Maxwell

Wallace: 5 games.

We'll see.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:46 pm

I read on ESPN.com where there's talk that David Stern has been studying the actions of FIFA and European national soccer governing bodies after incidents of fan-player violence.

Manchester United's Eric Cantona was banned for eight months in 1995 for jumping into the stands and launching one karate kick at a Crystal Palace fan, a way more benign act than the Motown Brawl.

AS Roma was forced to play a Champions League game in front of no spectators earlier this year after one of its supporters hit a referee with some sort of projectile, cutting the referee.

I would love to see Stern ban Artest, O'Neal and Jackson for eight months and love to see the Pistons play a home playoff game in front of zero spectators, losing probably more than $1 million in revenue.

But Stern never would have the balls to do that.

Take care,
PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:54 pm

pk500 wrote:I would love to see Stern ban Artest, O'Neal and Jackson for eight months and love to see the Pistons play a home playoff game in front of zero spectators, losing probably more than $1 million in revenue.

That would be f*ckin' AWESOME.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:00 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
pk500 wrote:I would love to see Stern ban Artest, O'Neal and Jackson for eight months and love to see the Pistons play a home playoff game in front of zero spectators, losing probably more than $1 million in revenue.
That would be f*ckin' AWESOME.

That would rock...though Id like to see Artest spend his 8 months at Arkam Asylum .

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:07 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
pk500 wrote:I would love to see Stern ban Artest, O'Neal and Jackson for eight months and love to see the Pistons play a home playoff game in front of zero spectators, losing probably more than $1 million in revenue.
That would be f*ckin' AWESOME.

How about free tickets or something? I fail to see how denying the 99.9% of the fans who are good a home playoff game can be a good thing.

I agree mostly with Marc Stein. Nobody did anything worse than Kermit did that fateful night, there was just more people doing bad. Give Artest Kermit's two months, plus one month because of past antics. Everybody else gets Mad Max type suspensions. I prefer just an enormous fine for the Pistons rather than playing a playoff game in a vacuum.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:12 pm

How about free tickets or something? I fail to see how denying the 99.9% of the fans who are good a home playoff game can be a good thing.

I agree mostly with Marc Stein. Nobody did anything worse than Kermit did that fateful night, there was just more people doing bad. Give Artest Kermit's two months, plus one month because of past antics. Everybody else gets Mad Max type suspensions. I prefer just an enormous fine for the Pistons rather than playing a playoff game in a vacuum.

Agreed. I'm always against "message" actions from a league office. 99% of the fans were fine. Punish the people who were involved. Beef up security from here on out and be more pro-active with tossing fans. Send a message and re-iterate to NBA players and officials that touching fans is never alright. Move on.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:36 pm

reeche wrote:
Kazuya wrote:Had Artest been the sole instigator of this incident, I think he very well may be facing being banned for the season. But since Ben Wallace, an idiot fan and the Detroit Pistons are the ones who kicked it off, I think Artest will probably *just* get stuck with a suspension of record length. I still don't think Artest is the guiltiest one on his own team, much less in the arena.
My guess is something like this although I'm just pulling it out of my behind.

Artest: From 20 games to the rest of the season. Somewhere in that range. I think the union will fight so I don't think the full season suspension will be enacted.

Jackson & O'Neal: 10 Games like Maxwell

Wallace: 5 games.

We'll see.

Wire report on T.V. is that Artest is gone for 30, Jackson & O'Neal for 20 each, and Wallace for 5 games.

Best wishes,

Doug

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:46 pm

reeche wrote:Agreed. I'm always against "message" actions from a league office.

Why? Because it might make league officials look like they actually have control of their league, teams and players? Because it might actually cause franchises, players and fans to get the intended message?

If the administration of a sports league can't send a message to that league, then who can? And please don't say disgusted fans, because American sports fans are among the biggest lemmings in the world. Every work stoppage in American sports has proved that, as fans eventually have returned to the stadiums in droves despite their "I'm never coming back" outrage during the work stoppage.

But really, the whole thing is sort of moot. The message the NBA truly wants fans to know about this ugly incident was sent right after the melee ended Friday night:

"The rematch between the Pacers and Pistons is on Christmas Day -- it's Must See TV!"

The ratings will be boffo, and that's really what the NBA wants. Same as any other sports league.

Take care,
PK

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:53 pm

dougb wrote:Wire report on T.V. is that Artest is gone for 30, Jackson & O'Neal for 20 each, and Wallace for 5 games.

Best wishes,

Doug

Confirmed, Reuters is saying the exact same thing. This is not official yet, just news reports. Just about perfect, IMO.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:05 pm

Artest is such a knucklehead. He pitches away what was turning into an almost MVP like season.

NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH
R. Artest 7 7 41.6 24.6 1.1 5.3 6.4 3.1 1.71 0.86 2.4 1.29 3.9 0.0

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:20 pm

reeche wrote:Artest is such a knucklehead. He pitches away what was turning into an almost MVP like season.

NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH
R. Artest 7 7 41.6 24.6 1.1 5.3 6.4 3.1 1.71 0.86 2.4 1.29 3.9 0.0

He is more than a knucklehead,he's mental. The Stern or the Pacers need to make sure he get's the help he needs. 30 games in not enough IMO.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:25 pm

JackDog wrote:
reeche wrote:Artest is such a knucklehead. He pitches away what was turning into an almost MVP like season.

NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH
R. Artest 7 7 41.6 24.6 1.1 5.3 6.4 3.1 1.71 0.86 2.4 1.29 3.9 0.0
He is more than a knucklehead,he's mental. The Stern or the Pacers need to make sure he get's the help he needs. 30 games in not enough IMO.

Artest needs help!!!
Next time he will kill someone.
This is not an isolated incident.

The Bulls dumped Artest cause they were scared of his insanity.

Stern needs some balls....

What will the worm say when Artest seriously injures or eventually kills someone?????
If he does I want to see Stern swing.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:34 pm

What will the worm say when Artest seriously injures or eventually kills someone?????

You mean like Ray Lewis or that one hockey player who broke that guys neck. I agree with Kazuya. If those are the true suspensions I have no problem with them.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:46 pm

reeche wrote:
What will the worm say when Artest seriously injures or eventually kills someone?????
You mean like Ray Lewis or that one hockey player who broke that guys neck. I agree with Kazuya. If those are the true suspensions I have no problem with them.

I have no proof Ray ray did anything.
I have no video tape.
I have no history.
I do have dropped charges.

Terrible comparrison.

I am dissapointed.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:51 pm

XXXIV wrote:
reeche wrote:
What will the worm say when Artest seriously injures or eventually kills someone?????
You mean like Ray Lewis or that one hockey player who broke that guys neck. I agree with Kazuya. If those are the true suspensions I have no problem with them.
I have no proof Ray ray did anything.
I have no video tape.
I have no history.
I do have dropped charges.

Terrible comparrison.

I am dissapointed.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:57 pm

reeche wrote:
XXXIV wrote:
reeche wrote: You mean like Ray Lewis or that one hockey player who broke that guys neck. I agree with Kazuya. If those are the true suspensions I have no problem with them.
I have no proof Ray ray did anything.
I have no video tape.
I have no history.
I do have dropped charges.

Terrible comparrison.

I am dissapointed.

Actually I am dissapointed with Joey harrington.
Doesnt this doofus have any idea who is good or bad on his team?