Rumble in the Motor City

JOZ · Post by **JOZ** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:41 pm

When watching the video, it looks like Stephen Jackson may have seen the guy that threw the bottle. After the bottle hits Artest, Jackson points up right away. Maybe he told Artest the guy in the black shirt. So Artest runs to the wrong guy in the black shirt. Once Artest gets to the guy and grabs him, you see Jackson come in behind and drill the guy to the right who also has a black shirt. Not that any of this matters, just something I noticed.

With all this "thug" talk going on, what is up with the worthless "thug" that steps on the court and challenge Artest with his actions. This guy was just asking to get his ass kicked. Also if you notice, this guy's buddy was the one who tried to get Artest off of the guy. This was the guy that O'Neal laid out. My guess is O'Neal just turned around and seen a guy tackling Artest and retaliated. Just another thing that I noticed.

The players made bad decisions for what they did and deserve punishment no doubt. Players going into the stands just can't happen and serious fines/punishment needs to be assesed. But something seriously needs done to the fans. Fans have got to learn that this sort of behavior cannot be tolerated. This is the time to make arrests if possible. If it comes down to putting the entire crowd under surveillance and having a name to go with each ticket then so be it. It would be nice if snipers were in the rafters or rooftops to put a bullett in anyone who acts like this. Hopefully, the fans who were involved in this will all just shoot themselves and we won't have to worry about them again.

Why in the world are there bottles there anyway? I thought they got rid of bottles at sporting events. I don't care if its plastic or not. I still think a plastic bottle full of liquid could hurt like hell if thrown at someone. At least a hell of alot more than a cup with the liquid pouring out as it goes.

For Christ's sake, how long do we have to endure these incidents before they get rid of alcohol at events. I'm not saying alcohol causes these problems, idiots do. But I know it definitely escalates the problems. Another amazing thing is that these people paid $3-$4 bucks for a soda or $5-$6 for a beer and throw them!?! That's after paying the totally ridiculous prices for tickets.

hoserthehorrible · Post by **hoserthehorrible** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:53 pm

Players have no business going into the stands for any reason whatsoever. If they do they ought to be suspended for many, many games. I believe the fans have every right to sue the hell out of the players in this case. It's the arena security's job to make sure fans who throw stuff onto the ice, court, field are punished accordingly. It's not the players right to take the law into their own hands.

By the same token, fans should not be on the field of play, the ice, the court, for any reason. If they step onto the court, in what can only be considered a threatening manner last night, then the players have every right to knock them on their arses and the fans basically should have no recourse for being knocked out while on the court in a threatening manner.

Last night, many people were at fault. The fans for throwing crap at the players, security for not controlling the fans, the players for going into the stands, and the fans again for coming onto the court. They all should, and likely will, pay the price for their actions.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:58 pm

For Christ's sake, how long do we have to endure these incidents before they get rid of alcohol at events. I'm not saying alcohol causes these problems, idiots do. But I know it definitely escalates the problems. Another amazing thing is that these people paid $3-$4 bucks for a soda or $5-$6 for a beer and throw them!?! That's after paying the totally ridiculous prices for tickets.

I've felt this way for years. I don't know how many times I've had to endure fellow drunks around me hollering and yelling and doing stupid stuff. I thought these were supposed to be family sports.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:58 pm

hoserthehorrible wrote:Players have no business going into the stands for any reason whatsoever. If they do they ought to be suspended for many, many games. I believe the fans have every right to sue the hell out of the players in this case. It's the arena security's job to make sure fans who throw stuff onto the ice, court, field are punished accordingly. It's not the players right to take the law into their own hands.

By the same token, fans should not be on the field of play, the ice, the court, for any reason. If they step onto the court, in what can only be considered a threatening manner last night, then the players have every right to knock them on their arses and the fans basically should have no recourse for being knocked out while on the court in a threatening manner.

Last night, many people were at fault. The fans for throwing crap at the players, security for not controlling the fans, the players for going into the stands, and the fans again for coming onto the court. They all should, and likely will, pay the price for their actions.

Well said.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:02 pm

Regarding the "thug" aspect of today's NBA, back in the day, when pro basketball was an overlooked stepchild of other pro sports, people actually played in cages, hence the reason basketball players were sometimes called cagers, long after the cages were gone.

The game allowed a lot of physical play so the owners put up cages to protect fans.

As for banning alcohol, it's because they charge $6 and up for 10 ounces of beer that they won't ban it.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:06 pm

wco81 wrote:Regarding the "thug" aspect of today's NBA, back in the day, when pro basketball was an overlooked stepchild of other pro sports, people actually played in cages, hence the reason basketball players were sometimes called cagers, long after the cages were gone.

While I respect the historical accuracy of your post, I have a feeling most NBA fans don't know that history of the game.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:17 pm

Actually, this cage stuff predates the NBA.

And I can't remember but I think fans and players did get into scuffles. This is like the '40s or even earlier.

But was it Jack Johnson in the ABA days who was suppose to be packing when he showed up for some games?

See today's NBA thugs are wannabe thugs in comparison.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:24 pm

wco81 wrote:Actually, this cage stuff predates the NBA.

And I can't remember but I think fans and players did get into scuffles. This is like the '40s or even earlier.

But was it Jack Johnson in the ABA days who was suppose to be packing when he showed up for some games?

See today's NBA thugs are wannabe thugs in comparison.

Even though it's not relevant in this situation, all NBA fights make me thing of Kermit Washington eventually.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/ba ... 2430c.html

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:27 pm

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:PK, I am the last person alive that would use the race card, believe me or not. It just seems any time anything is mentioned about the NBA's players the words "thug" and "gangsta" are used.

Valid point. But the hip-hop and rap worlds, which are predominantly black, use words like "thug" and "gangsta" more than any other cultural phenomenon.

The majority of NBA players are black. I would say many of those black players -- not all -- either embrace, like or are part of the hip-hop/rap lifestyle and culture.

So factoring in that correlation, it's pretty easy to see why "thug" and "gangsta" are used when referring to rogue NBA players who are black.

Take care,
PK

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:27 pm

wco81 wrote:
And I can't remember but I think fans and players did get into scuffles. This is like the '40s or even earlier.

Much earlier, in the 1920's. The era of the "cage" comes from when there were still town teams. Each town had a team and they played other towns. Because so much pride was at stake fights usually broke at at games, with spectators attacking players, etc. These barriers were set up to stop this type of behavior. Then afterward everyone would stay after for a dance on the game floor....believe it or not. This era even predates professional players at all because generally speaking these players weren't paid.

Brett

realismoverfluff · Post by **realismoverfluff** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:28 pm

i think your trying to make it sound fair in a way, because it is what was interpreted back in the day

that wont fly in today's climate with AA and white americans

when a white american refers to any AA as a thug, a red flaq is thrown up and that white person is often thought of as prejudice or even racist. it may not be fair to the white person, but when you use certain words around certain people, these are the things that happen

its a really tough issue to grasp because everyone is always running away from it. but people need to be more specific when they use certain terms

realismoverfluff · Post by **realismoverfluff** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:29 pm

pk500 wrote:
TheFormerBrett44 wrote:PK, I am the last person alive that would use the race card, believe me or not. It just seems any time anything is mentioned about the NBA's players the words "thug" and "gangsta" are used.
Valid point. But the hip-hop and rap worlds, which are predominantly black, use words like "thug" and "gangsta" more than any other cultural phenomenon.

The majority of NBA players are black. I would say many of those black players -- not all -- either embrace, like or are part of the hip-hop/rap lifestyle and culture.

So factoring in that correlation, it's pretty easy to see why "thug" and "gangsta" are used when referring to rogue NBA players who are black.

Take care,
PK

so, are you saying it is okay?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:52 pm

realismoverfluff wrote:
pk500 wrote:
TheFormerBrett44 wrote:PK, I am the last person alive that would use the race card, believe me or not. It just seems any time anything is mentioned about the NBA's players the words "thug" and "gangsta" are used.
Valid point. But the hip-hop and rap worlds, which are predominantly black, use words like "thug" and "gangsta" more than any other cultural phenomenon.

The majority of NBA players are black. I would say many of those black players -- not all -- either embrace, like or are part of the hip-hop/rap lifestyle and culture.

So factoring in that correlation, it's pretty easy to see why "thug" and "gangsta" are used when referring to rogue NBA players who are black.

Take care,
PK

so, are you saying it is okay?

Yes, I am. If "thug" and "gangsta" are perceived at the same level as "n*gger," "sp*c" or "k*ke," for example, then the PC police really are running amok.

Merriam-Webster's definition of thug is a "brutal ruffian" or a "rogue." Ron Artest doesn't qualify for that classification? He IS a thug.

And let's face it: The NBA players in trouble with the law or who have basketball-related discipline problems all but invite these terms to be used to describe them due to the majority of the players embracing the hip-hop and rap cultures, which have made the words "thug" and "gangsta" part of their lexicon.

The terms "thug" and "gangsta" used to describe certain elements of urban and hip-hop/rap culture certainly didn't come from the vodka-soaked mind of Barclay Wellington while having a martini with fellow members of the Fortune 500 at the local country club. So don't blame white guys for inventing and propagating a term that was given its current context and popularized by the black community.

We're not talking "n*gger" here, which was an offensive term used by and popularized by slave owners in colonial America. We're talking about terms that were given their current context by the black community itself.

Take care,
PK

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:57 pm

This is not Spain,France or any other racist part of europe.
I see no need to bring race int this....especially since race had nothing to do with it.

This is about ne psycho asshole, his two scumbag partners, some drunk fans and their enablers at ESPN

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:02 pm

XXXIV wrote:This is not Spain,France or any other racist part of europe.
I see no need to bring race int this....especially since race had nothing to do with it.

This is about ne psycho asshole, his two scumbag partners, some drunk fans and their enablers at ESPN

34:

You know, your deranged genius is showing, man: Your summary is just about spot-on!

Take care,
PK

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:08 pm

XXXIV wrote:This is not Spain,France or any other racist part of europe.
I see no need to bring race int this....especially since race had nothing to do with it.

This is about ne psycho asshole, his two scumbag partners, some drunk fans and their enablers at ESPN

LOL. While I normally agree with your sentiments, the notion that a thread can't extend beyond one narrow focus is BS. I don't know how many times I've seen NBA threads be derailed by subjects not relevant to what was originally discussed. I don't think anything I said or that other guy said was beyond the pale so I don't agree that you are the arbiter of the binds and constraints of a thread. As far as Artest, I don't think most of us have disagreed that Artest should be punished. Some people didn't like the characterizations used and they have a right to express that opinion just as you have a right to express yours. It goes both ways.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:48 pm

pk500 wrote:
realismoverfluff wrote:
pk500 wrote: Valid point. But the hip-hop and rap worlds, which are predominantly black, use words like "thug" and "gangsta" more than any other cultural phenomenon.

The majority of NBA players are black. I would say many of those black players -- not all -- either embrace, like or are part of the hip-hop/rap lifestyle and culture.

So factoring in that correlation, it's pretty easy to see why "thug" and "gangsta" are used when referring to rogue NBA players who are black.

Take care,
PK

so, are you saying it is okay?
Yes, I am. If "thug" and "gangsta" are perceived at the same level as "n*gger," "sp*c" or "k*ke," for example, then the PC police really are running amok.

Merriam-Webster's definition of thug is a "brutal ruffian" or a "rogue." Ron Artest doesn't qualify for that classification? He IS a thug.

And let's face it: The NBA players in trouble with the law or who have basketball-related discipline problems all but invite these terms to be used to describe them due to the majority of the players embracing the hip-hop and rap cultures, which have made the words "thug" and "gangsta" part of their lexicon.

The terms "thug" and "gangsta" used to describe certain elements of urban and hip-hop/rap culture certainly didn't come from the vodka-soaked mind of Barclay Wellington while having a martini with fellow members of the Fortune 500 at the local country club. So don't blame white guys for inventing and propagating a term that was given its current context and popularized by the black community.

We're not talking "n*gger" here, which was an offensive term used by and popularized by slave owners in colonial America. We're talking about terms that were given their current context by the black community itself.

Take care,
PK

Well stated my brother.

This black backwoods moron,ex-military, half a brain rambling forum thug can sum the actions of DJ Artest and Jazzy Jackson up in one word.................Nigga-rific.

This is not a race issue. It's an asshole issue.

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:14 pm

[quote="JackDog]This is not a race issue. It's an asshole issue.[/quote]

quote of the year.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:16 pm

Yes, I am. If "thug" and "gangsta" are perceived at the same level as "n*gger," "sp*c" or "k*ke," for example, then the PC police really are running amok.

As usual it's not the word that are problematic. It's how people use them. It would be the same as calling Arabs Towel Heads even though many do indeed do wear a form of clothing on their heads. Not all black nba players adhere to the rap sterotype yet the term is often used as a broad-brush term. Why not call the person a bad person or a violent person or use the same terms you would for everybody. Just as somebody would call Romanowksi instead of dipping into some perceived notion of their culture

Merriam-Webster's definition of thug is a "brutal ruffian" or a "rogue." Ron Artest doesn't qualify for that classification? He IS a thug.

I don't have a problem with that per se then. Then lets use the term for everybody then and not just black atheletes who screw up right along with gangsta.

And let's face it: The NBA players in trouble with the law or who have basketball-related discipline problems all but invite these terms to be used to describe them due to the majority of the players embracing the hip-hop and rap cultures, which have made the words "thug" and "gangsta" part of their lexicon.

This is your generalization. I'm sure Ray Allen likes rap music. That doesn't mean if he does something wrong he's a gangsta

The terms "thug" and "gangsta" used to describe certain elements of urban and hip-hop/rap culture certainly didn't come from the vodka-soaked mind of Barclay Wellington while having a martini with fellow members of the Fortune 500 at the local country club. So don't blame white guys for inventing and propagating a term that was given its current context and popularized by the black community.

Once again the issue is broad brushing and generalizing. Black people historically have a trend of taking words and using them in a different context among ourselves. Doesn't mean I want a white guy coming up to me calling me a n***a even though I may use said word in private company or he heard it in some song. In the same way that I never use derogeratory terms for white people.

We're not talking "n*gger" here, which was an offensive term used by and popularized by slave owners in colonial America. We're talking about terms that were given their current context by the black community itself.

Fine and dandy. Just be consistent the next time a white guy does something. Perhaps it's the metal music or country music that is driving him too it.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:20 pm

JackDog wrote:
pk500 wrote:
realismoverfluff wrote:
so, are you saying it is okay?
Yes, I am. If "thug" and "gangsta" are perceived at the same level as "n*gger," "sp*c" or "k*ke," for example, then the PC police really are running amok.

Merriam-Webster's definition of thug is a "brutal ruffian" or a "rogue." Ron Artest doesn't qualify for that classification? He IS a thug.

And let's face it: The NBA players in trouble with the law or who have basketball-related discipline problems all but invite these terms to be used to describe them due to the majority of the players embracing the hip-hop and rap cultures, which have made the words "thug" and "gangsta" part of their lexicon.

The terms "thug" and "gangsta" used to describe certain elements of urban and hip-hop/rap culture certainly didn't come from the vodka-soaked mind of Barclay Wellington while having a martini with fellow members of the Fortune 500 at the local country club. So don't blame white guys for inventing and propagating a term that was given its current context and popularized by the black community.

We're not talking "n*gger" here, which was an offensive term used by and popularized by slave owners in colonial America. We're talking about terms that were given their current context by the black community itself.

Take care,
PK
Well stated my brother.

This black backwoods moron,ex-military, half a brain rambling forum thug can sum the actions of DJ Artest and Jazzy Jackson up in one word.................Nigga-rific.

This is not a race issue. It's an asshole issue.

And I repeat within the last 20 or so posts I've been reading who's defended the actions of those guys that attacked the fans? As far I can see most people are in agreement what they do was wrong and they should be punished. They simply don't like certain cultural implications thrown in there as factoid statements. No one has disputed Artest is the bad guy in this situation.

hoserthehorrible · Post by **hoserthehorrible** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:22 am

I think Bill Lambeer was a thug. A darn good one with two NBA championships mind you, but a thug nonetheless. Hell, he may even like rap music for all I know. I don't believe that has anything to do with the color of his skin though.

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:27 am

Man, what's the big deal? I found it all entertaining. It was a brawl, sh1it, we've all probably seen worse at your local pub. Taking away alcohol at sporting events would sure be a start at stopping this sort of thing don't you think?

Hell, I can recall Terry O'Reilly (Boston Bruins)going into the stands and a few other Bruins going with him, I do believe it was Mike Milbury who ended up beating a fan with the fan's own shoe.

Yeah there was a brawl, it's not the apocalypse. I'm of the mind that if a fan gets involved to that extent he deseves what he gets.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:58 am

GROGtheNailer wrote:Man, what's the big deal?

It's the NBA. They are nearly all thugs.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:19 am

reeche wrote:
For Christ's sake, how long do we have to endure these incidents before they get rid of alcohol at events. I'm not saying alcohol causes these problems, idiots do. But I know it definitely escalates the problems. Another amazing thing is that these people paid $3-$4 bucks for a soda or $5-$6 for a beer and throw them!?! That's after paying the totally ridiculous prices for tickets.
I've felt this way for years. I don't know how many times I've had to endure fellow drunks around me hollering and yelling and doing stupid stuff. I thought these were supposed to be family sports.

The big sports stopped being for the family years ago. Most families can't afford anything closer than the upper deck today, so they are safe from the fighting at least. It's nothing more than a business now, and what brings in the most profit? Beer sales.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:27 am

The guys on sports reporters made a good point.

Artest could restrain himself from fighting back with Ben Wallace. It was the beer that really set him off. IOW, they are implying he's a coward who'd only fight guys "half his size."

Then you had Mark Jackson and some other NBA players saying they can't be "disrespected," that some words and having beer thrown crosses the line.

Some people are demanding that he be suspended for the whole season.

Meanwhile, Jermaine apparently clocked someone in the tunnel, out of sight from the cameras.

The Pacers could be decimated this year.

Digital Sportspage

Rumble in the Motor City

.

Re: .

Re: .