Rumble in the Motor City

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:31 pm

ProvoAnC wrote:
Lets look at what you said. Its against the law to enter the court. Ok, so instead of tresspassing citations, the players can just take swings at any fan that enters the field of play? Using the same "logic" I should be able to go out thump on someone that cuts across my lawn.

Yes, and it's happened quite a few times over the years. PK mentioned probably the most famous time was when the Baltimore Colts linebacker leveled a fan who ran on the field. It's happened in baseball a few times the past few years, a fan runs on the field and players jump him. If a fan enters the field of play it's fair game. That's a fact, and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.

By the way, in many states if a person breaks into your house you have the legal right to use deadly force against such person. It somewhat equates to this, if you enter the field of play all bets are off.

I can't imagine why anyone with any sense would justify fans running onto the field or court.

Brett

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:40 pm

Little detail on four suspensions:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/b ... pended.ap/

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended four players indefinitely Saturday for their roles in one of the worst-ever brawls in the league, a fight commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable."

Indiana's Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson and Detroit's Ben Wallace were suspended for the fight in which several people were injured. Police were investigating but did not comment on who might be charged.

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:48 pm

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:13 pm

Airdog wrote:

The dude in the blue with the hat threw the cup....but Artest having no idea who threw the cup went after the smaller guy.

That poor guy must have taken a dump in his pants.

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:17 pm

If a fan just runs on to the court security pounces on him and does a Rodney King to his skull. Why the hell doesn't it work in reverse, when a player not only goes in the stands, but starts throwing punches at innocent people.

I'm F'n sick of athletes being above the law. Oh sure, maybe he'll be suspended a month. His ass should be in jail, as should the fan that hrew the beer.

they should quit trying to "make it look good" by fining them what is essentially pocket change to the players and treat them like normal people. But they might lose some precious TV viewers if the "star" player doesn't play this next game.

And what's with this crap of waiting till the season is over before they go to trial. That sure as hell wouldn't happen to you or me. "well let's see, my schedule frees up around next June, I suppose I could make it to court then, but if something comes up I'll have to postpone"

Whew, I feel better.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:26 pm

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:
JackDog wrote: How's this? Pack all the badasses of the NBA up and send them to Iraq. Let them get thuggish on some insurgents. They have the money to equip themselves with the best $hit on the market. Let them work that $hit out.
What would that prove? They're not trained soldiers. Perhaps with proper training Ron Artest would make a good soldier, who knows? Should we send soldiers out as replacement players for the Pacers that get suspended? You just don't make much sense with this statement.

Pro players seem to get slammed for the same things over and over, they're "thugs" and they're rich. Therefore they have no right to be a human being. I'm not giving Artest a free pass, he deserves to be punished.

Brett

Fuc you. Does that make enough sense for you? I didn't mean it literally.

You missed my point. Big surprise.

Go argue with Parker now.

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:38 pm

JackDog wrote:
Fuc you. Does that make enough sense for you? I didn't mean it literally.

You missed my point. Big surprise.

Go argue with Parker now.

That's because your points rarely, if ever, make any sense at all. Usually you just ramble on and on and then throw in some sort of Army reference. For someone with half a brain you sure do come across as a backwoods moron sometimes. If you disagree with me fine, but you have to resort to putdowns and profanity as soon as someone as an opposite point of view than you. Grow up.

f*** you? That's your big comeback? How very junior high of you. I wish I had the mastery of the english language that you do.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:49 pm

If you disagree with me fine, but you have to resort to putdowns and profanity as soon as someone as an opposite point of view than you. Grow up.

Okay.

For someone with half a brain you sure do come across as a backwoods moron sometimes.

So what you are saying is you are not above what you do not condone. Congrats on filling the irony meter for the forum today.

So Grow up???

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:04 pm

"Go argue with Parker now."

Well, if he only wasn't a Yankee fan, I think I would argue much less with him than with certain other people.

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:36 pm

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:
Yes, and it's happened quite a few times over the years. PK mentioned probably the most famous time was when the Baltimore Colts linebacker leveled a fan who ran on the field. It's happened in baseball a few times the past few years, a fan runs on the field and players jump him. If a fan enters the field of play it's fair game. That's a fact, and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.

By the way, in many states if a person breaks into your house you have the legal right to use deadly force against such person. It somewhat equates to this, if you enter the field of play all bets are off.

I can't imagine why anyone with any sense would justify fans running onto the field or court.

Brett

I'll type slower this time. You mean there have been other times that fans have run onto a field? Wow, I had no idea. You run onto a field, you get arrested, whatever, but it does not give a player the right to hit you. You go after the player, etc, fine.

Let me tell you a little about deadly force. You CANNOT, at least in WI, shoot someone cause they broke into your house. You WILL be arrested and charged. Deadly force is an act by a firearm or other instrument whose sole intent is to cause death. You can use deadly force if someone has caused or imminently threatens to cause death or GBH to yourself or another. The civilian interpretation is more strict. So, no, it doesn't equate to the NBA incident at all.

I never justified someone charging the field, but if you do and you don't attack anyone, you have an expectation NOT to get hit, punched, or whatever by some overpaid crybaby wannabe gangbanger.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:45 pm

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:
JackDog wrote:
Fuc you. Does that make enough sense for you? I didn't mean it literally.

You missed my point. Big surprise.

Go argue with Parker now.
That's because your points rarely, if ever, make any sense at all. Usually you just ramble on and on and then throw in some sort of Army reference. For someone with half a brain you sure do come across as a backwoods moron sometimes. If you disagree with me fine, but you have to resort to putdowns and profanity as soon as someone as an opposite point of view than you. Grow up.

f*** you? That's your big comeback? How very junior high of you. I wish I had the mastery of the english language that you do.

It was Jr High enough to get under your skin.

I am heading to the outhouse with my backwoods ass. I will serpentine all the way(Military reference). When I wipe I'll think of you.

Have a great day!

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:55 pm

Fans have been throwing stuff ever since I can remember.
My first memory was the 73 NLCS when the Mets fans were throwing it all at Pete Rose (OFielder at the time). It got so bad Sparky Anderson pulled the reds of the field.

Whats changed since then?

(1) We now have psycopaths like Ron Artest given free reign to do whatever the f*** they want and (2) douchebags( like the morons at ESPN) defending this dickhead.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:11 pm

XXXIV wrote:(1) We now have psycopaths like Ron Artest given free reign to do whatever the f*** they want and (2) d*****bags( like the morons at ESPN) defending this dickhead.

Well seemingly the league has taken action so I don't exactly see how they are being given free reign. I also happen to disagree with the ESPN commentators and I think Jackson, Artest and anybody who fought with fans should be suspended. I don't see what the big argument is over. Something happened. The league responsed and is sending a message until they fully investigate. This has happened in other sports before as mentioned (notably hockey) so I don't see this as some sign of the apocolpyse (sp?). Something very negative happened and the league is dealing with it and you move on.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:15 pm

reeche wrote:
XXXIV wrote:(1) We now have psycopaths like Ron Artest given free reign to do whatever the f*** they want and (2) d*****bags( like the morons at ESPN) defending this dickhead.
Well seemingly the league has taken action so I don't exactly see how they are being given free reign. .

Artest has been leading up towards this his entire career.
He has a long rap sheet for someone that young.
Obviously, no one has made any effort to get thru to him....either that or he just belongs in a home.

The dudes at ESPN were just plain disgraceful last night.
Some of them were just plain offensive.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:23 pm

Okay we are talking about someone throwing a cup of water on a player. Most feel this is not something that should

But is there is a line that a fan can cross that would cause you to say otherwise? For an example (and using a player who is even more of a nut job then Artest) what about in the 90's when Vernon Maxwell went into the stands to puch a fan. He did it because the fan was making continualy throwing out comments about his recently deceased daughter?

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:27 pm

Artest has been leading up towards this his entire career.
He has a long rap sheet for someone that young.
Obviously, no one has made any effort to get thru to him....either that or he just belongs in a home.

The dudes at ESPN were just plain disgraceful last night.
Some of them were just plain offensive.

I didn't see ESPN last night so I can't comment on that. I am more specifically talking about the league and it's actions with seem like the appropriate response. As far as the fans, I do think something needs to be done about drunk fans or a-holes who throw stuff or god forbid step on the court. Your asking for trouble when you do that kind of stuff and as a peformer or athelete I wouldn't trust anybody who was near me once they made the decision to enter the court. That being said, no player for any reason I can think off has a right to leave the court and start attacking fans. They will be punished by the league and will have to deal with any civil suits that arise. I don't really see why Wallace was also suspended indefinitely but these suspensions will be adjusted anyway so. As far as wanna be gangbangers that's somebody trying to put their obvious own spin on the event but I agree that they should be punished.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:31 pm

bdoughty wrote:Okay we are talking about someone throwing a cup of water on a player. Most feel this is not something that should

But is there is a line that a fan can cross that would cause you to say otherwise? For an example (and using a player who is even more of a nut job then Artest) what about in the 90's when Vernon Maxwell went into the stands to puch a fan. He did it because the fan was making continualy throwing out comments about his recently deceased daughter?

Unfortunately those are the type of fans whop give "fans" a bad name. This concept of I bought my ticket so I can be an a-hole really annoys particularily when I attend these events and these people don't allow me to enjoy the game. Throwing stuff at players should be dealt with by security and they should be kicked out immediately. Unfortunately saying stuff doesn't cross the line I guess unless they are so loud and obnoxious that they are serving as a distraction to nearby fans.

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:43 pm

I find it somewhat amusing how many can justify the actions of the fans because the players are "overpaid" or "gangstas" or just perhaps because the majority of them are black might have something to do with it. Of course some of you will say that's silly, but deep down inside I think that is part of it.

I don't think professional athletes are overpaid. They do something that only a chosen few can do, and people pay good money to see them do it. It's called free enterprise. Are some of them ungrateful assholes? You bet, just see Latrell Spreewell for a fine example of an ungrateful asshole.

Again, I'm not sticking up for the players. They were wrong and are being punished. Also, ignore the fine they get. Where they really lose money is the money they lose by being suspended. They don't get paid for the suspended games. This incident will cost the big name players, O'Neal/Artest probably $500,000 or more. That is far from pocket change. Also, Artest hasn't gotten away with anything during this career. Anytime he's done something stupid he's been fined and susupended. Again the fines weren't huge, but the lost salary is.

But the bottom line is, nobody in their right mind could possibly think it's OK for a fan to run out on the court. It can't be justified, and by the same token players going into the stands can't be justified.

I look forward to all mature responses.

Brett

realismoverfluff · Post by **realismoverfluff** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:52 pm

dont think i'll ever understand why the words thug and punk are always thrown around when black athletes get into trouble

i mean, i know why...but then why

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:03 pm

reeche wrote:
XXXIV wrote:(1) We now have psycopaths like Ron Artest given free reign to do whatever the f*** they want and (2) d*****bags( like the morons at ESPN) defending this dickhead.
Well seemingly the league has taken action so I don't exactly see how they are being given free reign. I also happen to disagree with the ESPN commentators and I think Jackson, Artest and anybody who fought with fans should be suspended. I don't see what the big argument is over. Something happened. The league responsed and is sending a message until they fully investigate. This has happened in other sports before as mentioned (notably hockey) so I don't see this as some sign of the apocolpyse (sp?). Something very negative happened and the league is dealing with it and you move on.

We'll see what kind of action the league really takes. Today wasn't really "action" -- it was more of a PR stunt by David Stern. Supposedly the suspensions will be announced by tomorrow. Then we'll see if the NBA brass has any backbone at all.

Secretly, the NBA relishes this incident. It will be forgotten sooner than we think, only resurrected by any legal action, and the ratings for the rematch on Christmas Day will be sky-high. Even the NBA couldn't have devised a PR and promotions stunt this good.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:04 pm

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:I find it somewhat amusing how many can justify the actions of the fans because the players are "overpaid" or "gangstas" or just perhaps because the majority of them are black might have something to do with it. Of course some of you will say that's silly, but deep down inside I think that is part of it.

It is silly, because a classy, professional black NBA player like Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Michael Jordan or Ray Allen wouldn't have went into the stands.

So you can take your pretty little racial card and play Go Fish.

TheFormerBrett44 wrote:But the bottom line is, nobody in their right mind could possibly think it's OK for a fan to run out on the court. It can't be justified, and by the same token players going into the stands can't be justified.

I look forward to all mature responses.

I agree. There is no justification for a fan running on the court or playing field. But there's also no justification for you playing the race card, especially when you relish mature responses.

I would feel the exact same about the incident if Steve Nash was the guy laying on the scorer's table who rushed into the stands. He would be a thug, a punk, just like Ron Artest.

The only reason I have any bias against Artest is his past history of being an idiot. His skin color has ZERO to do with it. I'm a hockey fan, and all of the numbskull NHL players who have entered the stands -- Domi and Milbury are the most notable I can remember -- are white. So it would be pretty hypocritical of me to slam Artest yet condone Domi and Milbury.

They're all buffoons.

Take care,
PK

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:20 pm

JackDog wrote:

I am heading to the outhouse with my backwoods ass. I will serpentine all the way(Military reference)

f***in serpentine!!

HAHAHAHA "I'm up he sees me I'm down"

Make sure you wipe your Brett when you're done in the outhouse

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:20 pm

realismoverfluff wrote:dont think i'll ever understand why the words thug and punk are always thrown around when black athletes get into trouble

i mean, i know why...but then why

EXACTLY! I wouldn't mind punk because that has sort of a neutral connontation but "thug" and "gangbanger" are very loaded terms with different connotations. You don't call Romanowski a "gangbanger". I love analyzing the reason behind why we use the words we use.

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:33 pm

pk500 wrote: So you can take your pretty little racial card and play Go Fish.

PK, I am the last person alive that would use the race card, believe me or not. It just seems any time anything is mentioned about the NBA's players the words "thug" and "gangsta" are used.

I hate to sound like the Rev. Al or some bleeding heart liberal, which I certainly am not, but I believe that alot of the venom that gets thrown around here regarding the NBA's overpaid "thugs" is thrown around because the majority of players are black. In my opinion of course and I'm not calling anyone a racist. Another reason is simply envy. People are sickened because these guys make so much money. Read back through the posts, do a search of all previous NBA threads. Try to read them with an unbiased mind, if that's possible.

Brett

EDIT: By unbiased I mean undecided. In this context bias has nothing to do with race.

TheFormerBrett44 · Post by **TheFormerBrett44** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:39 pm

ProvoAnC wrote: Make sure you wipe your Brett when you're done in the outhouse

I assume one has to be under the age of 7 to find this amusing, correct?

Brett