OT: Wanna know why Kerry lost Ohio?

[FatPitcher]

On a related note, I suggest if you want to make a difference, help people, etc., give your time and money to a charity instead of a politician.

[Brando70]

Brando......... True Christians do care about the poor and prehaps some people who call themselves Christian do not, but anyone can say anything and it means nothing. I know Christians and yes they are pro life and believe in all of the moral values taked about, but they also care very much about helping the poor and give lots of money to churches and charitys to assist the poor. Simply supplying material needs to people is helpful and many true Christians do this, but they also minister to them and change their hearts to become better people. True Christians love the poor and really truely want to help them.

TRI, that's very true. I guess I'm guilty of using a wide brush here -- I'm more upset about the election than I thought I'd be. Nobody likes to be on the losing side of things.

I guess what I meant was, in terms of Christian politics, I don't see issues related to poverty getting the kind of attention that homosexuality and abortion do (although I certainly understand the oppostion to abortion). Granted, there are a lot of pols who claim to be Christians who are really not. It's a useful political tool for them, because it's almost impossible for an avowed athiest to get elected to our federal government.

[JRod]

Most of you guys don't get it...

Watch the frontline special on Bush and his religion.

The moral and religious vote is less about convictions and more about winning. It would be one thing to that he used the born again christian mantra when he was in a rough period in his life. In fact Bush started to throw around that title when his father was running for President.

His adviser then took bush around to evagalicals Christians and showed them how powerful they could be. For the next few years and his time as governor, he regularly used this to gain the evagelical vote.

So is it a case of using religion to get votes or just where one's religion is in sync with more Americans?

The hypocracy of it is that Bushs actions outside of gays, abortion and god doesn't jive with most of the Christian faith.

Lastly the Bush campaign also used to their advatage these stances to pick off Hispanics, Catholics, and married women.

The sad truth is that the in many eyes the 04 election wasn't so much about electing Bush as it was electing God. And thats pretty scary.

[Leebo33]

2) Why does everyone seem to classify those voting for Bush as simple minded, uneducated, crazed lunatic Christians, hating on gays and the poor, and loving war and capital punishment? It's the most ridiculous stereotyping I have seen on this board. We jump on anyone who stereotypes a rapper, or pro sports "thug" or whatever, but its a-ok to make widespread blanket statements like this.

Seriously. Luckily, it's the same culprits that keep doing it time and time again. I really wouldn't expect much more from them and have learned to expect their prejudices. I had a hard time voting for Kerry because I knew that I would be supporting their candidate and it almost sickened me because some of their comments really bother me. There are some reasonable Democrats on this board (Jared and Reeche come to mind off the top of my head...there are many others) and then there are the biased and hate-filled others that make assumptions about people they don't even know.

edit: I should note that this applies going the other way too. I just cringe at some of the comments made here by those on the right as well.

[bdoughty]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

Gee, sorry to disappoint you... Fundemental Christians get attacked all the time on this board. I guess we're all a bunch of inbred, kool-aid drinking ignorant hicks that aren't as enlightened as people like you.

I'm sick of the negative commentary and generalizations about people who share my belief system. It's okay to be tolerant to everyone else, but if you believe in God, the Bible, and Christ as the savior, it's fair game to take shots at you all the time.

For the record, I'm as anti-abortion as you can get, and I will never condone homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. To clarify, before you put more labels on me, it doesn't mean I hate homosexuals, or that I think homosexuals don't deserve the same basic rights I have. The state of Ohio asked me my opinion on gay marriage, and I voiced it, which is my right, and homosexuals and other people that feel differently had the same right. It also doesn't mean that I think it's okay to kill doctors who perform abortions. Sorry to disappoint you again.

And, just to skew your brilliant research, I voted for Kerry. The Republicans have had 30+ years to end abortion, and they haven't done anything about it. Even though it is on the Republican "platform," it's clear that it's not a priority. I'm not happy with the state of affairs in our country, so I voted for someone other than the current president. Yet, I'm a born-again Christian, and proud of it. Didn't mean to let you down, Jack, wco, & others...

Kevin

Terrific post Kevin and also Dchaps.

[K_Mosley]

So if you can't ever condone the "homosexual lifestyle," what do you do about them?

Treat them? Cure them? Force them to get married and raise families?

Threaten to lock them up if they don't change?

Didn't they kill sinners in the Bible?

I'm not so sure the State of Ohio put the gay marriage issue on the ballot. I believe it was Republicans who put it on the ballot, to draw people who have impractical views about not tolerating the "homosexual lifestyle" to come out to vote. It's no accident that 10 other states had similar ballot initiatives.

Michigan voted for Kerry but they also passed their marriage ballot initiative.

Anyways, even social conservatives must realize that the problem they have with the homosexual lifestyle won't be solved any time soon. So it's amazing that they put such issues ahead of more pressing issues like the economy and health care.

But looks like Roe v. Wade may finally be challenged in coming years. Just pray for the retirements or deaths of Justices Stevens and Bader-Ginsberg.

What do I do about homosexuals? Nothing, except disagree with their lifestyle, and refuse to personally accept it or teach it to my children. They are or could be my neighbors, my boss, a member of my local law enforcement, my doctor, etc. They are accountable for their own choices, as am I. God does the judging in the end, not me. I have my own sin to deal with. It's typical of people like you to assume I would be on some sort of crusade to change homosexuals, or anyone else that thinks differently than I do. I simply said I wouldn't support their lifestyle, and voted accordingly. And, your statement about killing sinners shows your ignorance of my faith. Please refrain from commenting on anything else that you think you know about me.

Oh, once again, sorry to dispute your theory about the religious right drawing ignorant, uninformed fools like me out to vote due to the whole "gay thing," I did vote for Kerry.

And, lastly, great post, Don. You said it much better than I!

Kevin

[wco81]

2) Why does everyone seem to classify those voting for Bush as simple minded, uneducated, crazed lunatic Christians, hating on gays and the poor, and loving war and capital punishment? It's the most ridiculous stereotyping I have seen on this board. We jump on anyone who stereotypes a rapper, or pro sports "thug" or whatever, but its a-ok to make widespread blanket statements like this. PS - There are many Democrats that are Christians and vehemently opposed to Gay marriage.

3) There are many, many Christians who are educated, intelligent, giving, open-minded people with their own faults and problems, who live by Christ's teaching which he summed up as "Love the Lord God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". That means all neighbors, regardless of sex, race, preference, etc.

Nobody made the claim that ALL of Bush supporters are fundamentalists. But early reports analyzing the voting patterns are showing that the religious conservatives provided Bush this decisive margin and turned out in high numbers, especially in states with those gay marriage ballot initiatives.

I just heard someone on NPR claim that there are more "liberal Christians" than "conservative Christians." But it's only the latter which are well organized and ideologically disciplined and form a recognizable voting bloc in this country.

Still, people who go to church regularly tended to support Bush.

[XXXIV]

EDIT OUT

[XXXIV]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

You could have them fed to the Lions.

[wco81]

What do I do about homosexuals? Nothing, except disagree with their lifestyle, and refuse to personally accept it or teach it to my children. They are or could be my neighbors, my boss, a member of my local law enforcement, my doctor, etc. They are accountable for their own choices, as am I. God does the judging in the end, not me. I have my own sin to deal with. It's typical of people like you to assume I would be on some sort of crusade to change homosexuals, or anyone else that thinks differently than I do. I simply said I wouldn't support their lifestyle, and voted accordingly. And, your statement about killing sinners shows your ignorance of my faith. Please refrain from commenting on anything else that you think you know about me.

Oh, once again, sorry to dispute your theory about the religious right drawing ignorant, uninformed fools like me out to vote due to the whole "gay thing," I did vote for Kerry.

And, lastly, great post, Don. You said it much better than I!

Kevin

Then why did you bring up the "homosexual lifestyle?"

And not teaching the homosexual lifestyle to your children? You think parents of gay people taught it to their kids?

The assumptions behind such statements betray an antiquated notion. It ignores scientific findings which point at a genetic cause.

As you know, there are some religious groups who try to cure people of that "lifestyle." So using a term like "homosexual lifestyle" seemed to signal that you believed there was some imperative to "cure" gay people.

As for killing sinners, are you saying there are no scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament, about killing the unrighteous peoples?

[webdanzer]

As you know, there are some religious groups who try to cure people of that "lifestyle." So using a term like "homosexual lifestyle" seemed to signal that you believed there was some imperative to "cure" gay people.

What?

That's a heck of a lot of assumptive leaps you make there.

[wco81]

As you know, there are some religious groups who try to cure people of that "lifestyle." So using a term like "homosexual lifestyle" seemed to signal that you believed there was some imperative to "cure" gay people.

What?

That's a heck of a lot of assumptive leaps you make there.

A quick Google search found this:

http://www.lovewonout.com/

Maybe this isn't a widespread belief, that homosexuality can be prevented or cured, mostly through religious faith.

But expressions like "homosexual lifestyle" seems to embody this kind of assumptive leap.

[Jackdog]

What do I do about homosexuals? Nothing, except disagree with their lifestyle, and refuse to personally accept it or teach it to my children. They are or could be my neighbors, my boss, a member of my local law enforcement, my doctor, etc. They are accountable for their own choices, as am I. God does the judging in the end, not me. I have my own sin to deal with. It's typical of people like you to assume I would be on some sort of crusade to change homosexuals, or anyone else that thinks differently than I do. I simply said I wouldn't support their lifestyle, and voted accordingly. And, your statement about killing sinners shows your ignorance of my faith. Please refrain from commenting on anything else that you think you know about me.

Oh, once again, sorry to dispute your theory about the religious right drawing ignorant, uninformed fools like me out to vote due to the whole "gay thing," I did vote for Kerry.

And, lastly, great post, Don. You said it much better than I!

Kevin

Then why did you bring up the "homosexual lifestyle?"

And not teaching the homosexual lifestyle to your children? You think parents of gay people taught it to their kids?

The assumptions behind such statements betray an antiquated notion. It ignores scientific findings which point at a genetic cause.

As you know, there are some religious groups who try to cure people of that "lifestyle." So using a term like "homosexual lifestyle" seemed to signal that you believed there was some imperative to "cure" gay people.

As for killing sinners, are you saying there are no scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament, about killing the unrighteous peoples?

WTF are you pressing this man for? Get a life! Your boy lost,let it go. Wasn't Mosley's fault.

How many times does he have tell you how he feels. If you don't care for his faith,fine. But as a liberal you should be fine with his choice to practice it.

Damn I really think you and Parker could be brothers.

[pk500]

Speaking of Parker, where is he today? Pulling his Jimmy Hoffa/Amelia Earhart act?

You would have thought the Ohio vote forced the Red Sox to give back their World Series crown, judging by his disappearance. Either that, or he doesn't have the sack to admit his predictions about the presidential race were wrong.

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

I read the first couple of pages of this thread and have a sense that the rest of the thread is much like the first two pages. Badgun's post was right on the mark. The religious are indeed sick and tired of seeing legislators impose their morality on them. Most religious people don't seek to force their views on abortion, , etc on you. But those that I know would say "If you want to have an abortion, that's your business. But don't use my money for it. Also if my underaged daughter is seeking one I should be notified. she's my daughter, not the state's. If she realizes she made a profond error by having one, it is we the parents who must pick up the pieces."

"Yes we agree drinking, homosexulaity, and illict sex is wrong. It's wrong for a reason (std's, aids, abortions, divorce, death by vehicle, broken homes, among many other things). And what is wrong with the 10 Commandments? Appeals to standards fall flat if there is no standard giver. If God wasn't an important part in the founding of this nation, his name wouldn't be all over our government buildings, wouldn't have ben mentioned in their speeches, etc. separation between church and stae to some means not imposing a certain religion on anyone, not praying to your maker." Some disagree and I respect that. But comparing christians to the Taliban?????? Come on. You're bigger than that.

Some mentioned the supposed hypocrisy of being for war but being against murder. Understandable, I guess. But was it hypocrtical of David to slay Goliath? The Philistines were hell bent on wiping out the Israelies and if somebody didn't take a stand they would have. Just read I and II Kings and you'll see God delivered many an enemy into David's, Joshua's, etc hand. Killing for the sake of killing is wrong to the christians I know (me included), but defending your family, yourself, your country etc from one seeking to kill you is not.

[pk500]

The religious are indeed sick and tired of seeing legislators impose their morality on them.

How can you say that when polls showed that "moral issues" were the No. 1 issue among GOP voters in yesterday's election, especially among those who consider themselves "born again" Christians?

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

How can you say that when "moral issues" were the No. 1 issue among GOP voters in yesterday's election, especially among those who consider themselves "born again" Christians?

So they're not allowed to vote for the one who's views come closest to theirs? What morals by the "born agains" were imposed on anyone yesterday, btw?

[pk500]

How can you say that when "moral issues" were the No. 1 issue among GOP voters in yesterday's election, especially among those who consider themselves "born again" Christians?

So they're not allowed to vote for the one who's views come closest to theirs? What morals by the "born agains" were imposed on anyone yesterday, btw?

No, but the Democrats didn't invoke God nearly as much in their campaign as the GOP and didn't push as many buttons on "moral issues," so that's why those who put more importance on "moral issues" voted GOP.

So using your logic, wouldn't those who were sick of having moral issues legislated have turned to the Democrats or a third party?

I believe in morality and am a regular practicing Catholic. Yet I didn't vote GOP. So where do I fit in?

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

You fit in where you fit in I guess. We all have different opinions. I myself voted for Bush but if a viable third party had a chance of winning, that's where my vote would have gone provided I agreed with their platform and their views on how to solve our current ills. I put importance on morals but also on our nation's defense. I felt Kerry would have been a step backward in that regard and the status quo when it comes to moral issues. it is my hope that the future will produce a third party can has a legit chance of winning. That just may make the other two parties get serious about solving problems and put an end to at least some of the partisanship that goes on.

[pk500]

You fit in where you fit in I guess. We all have different opinions. I myself voted for Bush but if a viable third party had a chance of winning, that's where my vote would have gone provided I agreed with their platform and their views on how to solve our current ills. I put importance on morals but also on our nation's defense. I felt Kerry would have been a step backward in that regard and the status quo when it comes to moral issues. it is my hope that the future will produce a third party can has a legit chance of winning. That just may make the other two parties get serious about solving problems and put an end to at least some of the partisanship that goes on.

Fair enough. I respect your views.

But third parties never will have a chance of winning until cats like you vote for them.

Winning is secondary to me with my vote. Principle and conscience come first.

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

But third parties never will have a chance of winning until cats like you vote for them.

Winning is secondary to me with my vote. Principle and conscience come first.

You're right. No question about it. 10 lashes for blueduke

I was really concerned Kerry would endanger this country. We're not the most popular folks on the block now and the badguys are a little braver than they used to be.

[Jackdog]

Speaking of Parker, where is he today? Pulling his Jimmy Hoffa/Amelia Earhart act?

You would have thought the Ohio vote forced the Red Sox to give back their World Series crown, judging by his disappearance. Either that, or he doesn't have the sack to admit his predictions about the presidential race were wrong.

Take care,
PK

Jimmy Hoffa and Amelia Earhart in a DSP thread. WoW!! One was lost on an island the other buried under one.

Paul it's safe to say we both could have predicted our boys outcome with the accuracy of a Ranger Sniper.

[pk500]

Well, Jackdiggity, Hoffa is on my brain because I'm reading a GREAT novel by my favorite author, James Ellroy, called "American Tabloid" in which Hoffa is a major character. Among Ellroy's other books is "L.A. Confidential," which was made into a damn good movie.

Highly recommend Ellroy if you like hard-boiled crime fiction with no bullsh*t.

I pulled Earhart out of my ass. No monkeys flew into it today, so I guess Kerry really did lose Ohio and Amelia came out instead.

Niggarifically yours,
PK

[Jackdog]

Well, Jackdiggity, Hoffa is on my brain because I'm reading a GREAT novel by my favorite author, James Ellroy, called "American Tabloid" in which Hoffa is a major character. Among Ellroy's other books is "L.A. Confidential," which was made into a damn good movie.

Highly recommend Ellroy if you like hard-boiled crime fiction with no bullsh*t.

I pulled Earhart out of my ass. No monkeys flew into it today, so I guess Kerry really did lose Ohio and Amelia came out instead.

Niggarifically yours,
PK

as beer flys out of my nose!!

Carol has "American Tabloid" I'll crack it open.

[Teal]

"It ignores scientific findings which point at a genetic cause."




Do me a favor and post those findings. I find that fascinating, yet hard to believe...to me, all the "genetic" stuff just tends to absolve one of any personal responsibility, which I can understand is a very appealing thought, however erroneous.

Like the "fat" gene. Forget that aunt Marge eats breakfast at Krispy Kreme, lunch at the supersize section of Mickey D's, and dinner at the home of the big, fat yeast roll...she can't help being fat-no, no, no...