OT: Wanna know why Kerry lost Ohio?

[JackB1]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

[GROGtheNailer]

Isnt that only 25 % of the voters?

[tjung0831]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

It was mentioned on the majority of the news channels that Bush won because of morals and it was mentioned throughout the campaign that the "moral" factor could be the difference and apparently it was. I am not disappointed one bit.

Tim

[pk500]

Isnt that only 25 % of the voters?

Grog:

True. But that puts only 75 percent of the vote in play because all "born-agains" vote Bush. So even if Kerry earns a small edge in the remaining 75 percent, the "born agains" push Bush over the top.

Pretty sad that a number of exit polls have shown that "moral values" were a bigger campaign issue than Iraq or the economy. Gee, I thought we were electing a President, not a minister. Glad to see the party of "small government" wants to legislate on something that is better done at home and at church.

The irony is quite thick ...

Take care,
PK

[davet010]

I read in the Sunday Times recently that between 30 and 40% of Americans regard themselves as 'born again'.

Apologies to those of you on this site who would include themselves in that, but I found that very frightening indeed.

[Leebo33]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

It's pretty sad when people are disappointed that people have faith in God and/or that they went out and voted. It's no wonder Bush gets so much of their vote. If someone said that they were disappointed that a large percentage of African-Americans (used as an example here because 89% voted for Kerry) voted, would that have been acceptable?

Maybe you should focus your disappointment on the Democratic party and their utter failure to capture the votes of this segment. Instead of trying to understand that conservative values are important to a vast majority of Americans and trying to incorporate that into the platform somehow, most Democrats that I know ridicule people of faith as "simple", "misinformed", or "uneducated." You aren't going to get many votes that way and the Republicans are only going to get stronger given the population shift to the Republican strongholds in the west and south.

[wco81]

The 11 states where gay marriage was voted on in ballot initiatives had higher voter turnout.

That includes states like Michigan which Kerry may ultimately end up winning.

However, I don't think it's only religious people who are against gay marriage or civil unions. Even among people who may in principle think gays should have legal rights, I bet they don't want to see gay couples in their work place or their communities.

So there are religious homophobes who cite biblical scriptures condemning homosexuality. Then there are more moderate homophobes who may not mind watching a show like Six Feet Under, which has prominent gay characters. But they don't want to see those characters kissing and they probably don't want to see gay people on the show adopting children.

Anywas, RIP Roe v. Wade.

[Dave]

I'm with you PK. I have no problems with morals being important, but for them to be more important than the economy and war surprises me.

I do not like morals pushed at me from above either.

[JackB1]

Ultimate Hipocracy:

The "Moral" Choice:

-kills 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilian's by invading a country that was never a threat to the U.S, and never attacked the US and never had the ability to attack the US (now proven countless times)

-sends thousands of his own countrymen into war for his own agenda, killing over a thousand of them

-lies to his whole country trying to justify an attack on Iraq and puts on a show to the U.N. for the same thing.

-cuts almost every environmental law possible (side note: pollution kills over 20,000 American yearly, but nobody cares about that)

-panders to and protects his rich, elite "buddies" in Saudi Arabia and couldn't care less about the common low-middle class guy.

-also interesting side note: abortions increased dramatically under Bush, compared to Clinton, due to all the job losses, education deterioration and
the poor getting poorer.

[Leebo33]

"hopefully after this election, we can all start coming together in
some way that reduces all these things that divide us right now.
after all, it's "us against them"."

- JackB1


You're not off to a good start with the "coming together" part, Jack.

[pk500]

I'm with you PK. I have no problems with morals being important, but for them to be more important than the economy and war surprises me.

I do not like morals pushed at me from above either.

Leebo:

Dave has nailed it. I have no problem with people of religion voting. I did, and I'm one of them.

But I also know that religious and moral issues stay at church and in the home, not in the halls of government. In other words, I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state.

I leave this debate with the sage letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association about this very topic:

>>>>>>>

Mr. President

To mess? Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

<<<<<<<

It's obvious that the Religious Right in this country never has read Jefferson's letter or thinks he's full of sh*t. I have read the letter, and I think Jefferson was a very, very wise man.

Take care,
PK

[tjung0831]

Ultimate Hipocracy:

The "Moral" Choice:

-kills 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilian's by invading a country that was never a threat to the U.S, and never attacked the US and never had the ability to attack the US (now proven countless times)

-sends thousands of his own countrymen into war for his own agenda, killing over a thousand of them

-lies to his whole country trying to justify an attack on Iraq and puts on a show to the U.N. for the same thing.

-cuts almost every environmental law possible (side note: pollution kills over 20,000 American yearly, but nobody cares about that)

-panders to and protects his rich, elite "buddies" in Saudi Arabia and couldn't care less about the common low-middle class guy.

-also interesting side note: abortions increased dramatically under Bush, compared to Clinton, due to all the job losses, education deterioration and
the poor getting poorer.

Jack,

The election is over....Bush won. The people have spoken!

Tim

[pk500]

There won't be any "coming together" in this country in the next four years. The U.S. is slipping closer and closer to a cultural civil war.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

The election is over....Bush won. The people have spoken!

So in true Republican fashion, anyone who disagrees with Bush's victory should shut the f*ck up, right, Tim? Democracy doesn't involve debate or dissent if you're a Republican.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

The religious people have spoken at least.

Even in "liberal" CA where Kerry won by 10 points, Bush got 4.4 million votes, which is probably one of his highest state vote totals. Probably Texas and maybe FL had more people vote for Bush.

And even a far right-wing nut like Alan Keys got over 1.3 million votes.

The Christian Taliban has taken over...

[tjung0831]

The election is over....Bush won. The people have spoken!

So in true Republican fashion, anyone who disagrees with Bush's victory should shut the f*ck up, right, Tim? Democracy doesn't involve debate or dissent if you're a Republican.

Take care,
PK

Yeah, pretty much!

Tim

[Leebo33]

The Christian Taliban has taken over...

My mom taught me if I couldn't say anything nice about someone...

[tjung0831]

The election is over....Bush won. The people have spoken!

So in true Republican fashion, anyone who disagrees with Bush's victory should shut the f*ck up, right, Tim? Democracy doesn't involve debate or dissent if you're a Republican.

Take care,
PK

What's funny is that I didn't vote for Bush...LOL!

Tim

[Badgun]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

Wow Jack, good to see no sour grapes from you this morning. Why are you disappointed? Because some people still believe in the basic principles that our God set before us?

You better talk to your buddy Michael Moore and tell him that when 2008 rolls around that pissing on God and Christian principles doesn't work. Getting hip rock groups to campaign against the president doesn't work. Throwing out a bunch of bullsh*t propaganda doesn't work.

Maybe next time you guys will have a candidate that actually has some moral values and maybe then the liberals will have a chance.

[Brando70]

just read that 1 out of every 4 voters from Ohio calls themselves a "born again Christian".

Needless to say, I'm very disappointed.

It's pretty sad when people are disappointed that people have faith in God and/or that they went out and voted. It's no wonder Bush gets so much of their vote. If someone said that they were disappointed that a large percentage of African-Americans (used as an example here because 89% voted for Kerry) voted, would that have been acceptable?

Maybe you should focus your disappointment on the Democratic party and their utter failure to capture the votes of this segment. Instead of trying to understand that conservative values are important to a vast majority of Americans and trying to incorporate that into the platform somehow, most Democrats that I know ridicule people of faith as "simple", "misinformed", or "uneducated." You aren't going to get many votes that way and the Republicans are only going to get stronger given the population shift to the Republican strongholds in the west and south.

But Leebo, there is no point in even trying to court the evangelical vote if you're a Democrat, because their lock-step anti-abortion stance means the vast majority of evangelicals will vote against Democrats as long as Democrats believe abortion should be legal. That's an even bigger wedge issue than gay rights.

I have no problem with people having strong faith. My parents are very devout Catholics and Republicans. But these political evangelicals have cherry picked what they want to believe. They can cite all the fire and brimstone of the Old Testament to argue against homosexuality and abortion. Yet you bring up the poor, and it's like they skipped over all those passages in the New Testament. I don't remember Jesus yelling at the poor to get off their lazy asses and find a job. Or that it was okay to beat your chest about how much of a Christian you are when you're wearing nice clothes, living in a nice house, and driving a nice car. When they are ready to stop being culture war hypocrites, I will take them seriously.

[pk500]

What's funny is that I didn't vote for Bush...LOL!

Well, at least someone is laughing and smiling this morning, and that's a good thing!

This nation is a house divided. I hope the Bush camp is sensible enough to realize that this is no Reagan-style second-term mandate despite controlling the Oval Office and both houses of Congress.

Some serious bipartisan cooperation will be needed in the next few years, but I'm not holding my breath it will happen.

Take care,
PK

[matthewk]

PK and Jack said it perfectly. We are SUPPOSED to be electing a president, not a religious leader.

Jack, great points you brought up. They preach on about morals while at the same time killing innocent Iraqis and lying to the American people (who obviously do not care about that fact) about the reasons for war.

Great. So now we have the following to look forward to from 2005-2008:

- More hatred towards America because Bush is still our leader. I have spoken to a number to friends who live in Eupopean countries, and they pretty much (majority) think of a Bush led US as the Roman Empire.

- Deeper national debt. Bin Laden just may get his wish about seeing the country bankrupt

- Slow economy with sloooooowwww job growth. I just experienced this firsthand, and it is not pretty. I have gone through job changes before, but I have never had such a hard time finding seomthing, much less getting a response. Oh, and it is not because I do not have in-demand tlaents, it's that there are few places looking for talented workers. Many that are want to hire them at low salries, as China and India continue to hold wage growth down. meanwhile, the rich get richer, with their 30% annual raises and golden parachutes.

- Continued skyrocketing prices for healthcare and oil. Combine this with stagnant wages, and you have and even deeper squeeze on middle class Americans. Oh, and don't count on Bush to help, because his real friends are the people behind the huge price increases.

I'm glad I found a job before the election, or right now I'd be REALLY depressed.

[pk500]

Indeed, Matt. And what's even more depressing is that the Republican religious right can't seem to wrap its head around the fact that there are religious people who attend services weekly, like me, who detest Bush.

The religious right sees this as a black-and-white issue: If you're religious and moral, you must have voted for Bush. If you're atheist and amoral, you must have voted for Kerry or someone else.

It's not that simple, especially if you believe in separation of church and state as fervently as I do.

Take care,
PK

[Leebo33]

But Leebo, there is no point in even trying to court the evangelical vote if you're a Democrat, because their lock-step anti-abortion stance means the vast majority of evangelicals will vote against Democrats as long as Democrats believe abortion should be legal. That's an even bigger wedge issue than gay rights.

Brando, I see what you are saying. However, the divide will only get bigger when you have people comparing Christians to the Taliban.

[webdanzer]

The religious right sees this as a black-and-white issue: If you're religious and moral, you must have voted for Bush. If you're atheist and amoral, you must have voted for Kerry or someone else.

You sure you don't mean liberal left, PK? 'American taliban', Jack basically blaming christians for voting bush? At least on this board, it's the left that is saying the religious can't think for themselves.