"Kerry pointed out that Bush diverted resources from Afghanistan to Iraq before the job was done in Afghanistan."
Damn it, I've gotta stay OUT of these threads...I'm a fatass in a candy store...
What Kerry pointed out was a lie, as pointed out by General Tommy Franks. Franks said no such diversion occurred, and Franks was in charge of both Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time...he knows more than anybody...
Franks doesn't know what he's talking about. Bob Woodward had it in his book.
There were funds appropriated for Afghanistan, things like building air strips. Those funds were diverted without notifying Congress in the spring of 2002.
Franks was asked to plan for the Iraq war while he was still in charge of operations in Afghanistant. That in itself is a diversion of resources. Eyes on the prize and all that sort of thing.
I recall in the early months after the Iraq war, there were periodic reports about the efforts to catch Bin Laden. One of the problems they were having was not having enough Arabic translators in Afghanistan to sort through all the intercepts.
Why weren't there enough? Because they were sent to Iraq!
And nobody can refute the numbers. Over ten times as many troops in Iraq as Afghanistan. If we put more forces in Afghanistan, especially at Tora Bora, actually on the ground rather than just dropping bombs from the air, Osama and at least hundreds of Al Qaeda soldiers may not have escaped Tora Bora in late 2001, early 2002.
On 9/12/2001, Bush was told it was Osama, AQ and the Taliban in Iraq who were responsible for 9/11. But he wanted to see if we could work Iraq in there. So he was more into Iraq than Afghanistan, even back then.
Right, WCO, diverting resources doesn't necessarily mean "pulling resources already in Afghanistan into Iraq." The Atlantic just did a big article on this, and in fact a lot of resources were held back from Afghanistan from the get go because Iraq was already looming as a real possibility. That's not the story the administration has been telling.
JackB1 wrote:All I can say is if this country believes that Bush is better qualified to lead us, then we deserve whatever we get.
I really see nothing in John Kerry that makes me believe he is a good leader.
Yep, and the same case could be made against Bush today and 4 years ago when he was running for the first time. Bush won in 2000 because Gore is an egghead - not because Bush seemed like a valid leader.
JackB1 wrote:All I can say is if this country believes that Bush is better qualified to lead us, then we deserve whatever we get.
I really see nothing in John Kerry that makes me believe he is a good leader.
Yep, and the same case could be made against Bush today and 4 years ago when he was running for the first time. Bush won in 2000 because Gore is an egghead - not because Bush seemed like a valid leader.
They both suck and Im voting for Monty Bruster.
Yep
Bush won cause Gore is a stiff....now maybe Kerry will win cause Bush cant speak English.....
Oh, then forget I said anything. Bob had it in his book... therefore the man responsible for the implementation of both Afghanistan and Iraq must not know what he's talking about. Thanks for setting me straight, wco... I just remembered why I vowed to stay out of these...
Woodward is going to be way more impartial than Franks, who messed up Tora Bora. He's also more widely trusted than anyone in govt. Maybe he's not a favorite of the far right but most of the nation doesn't view him the same way.
Bush didn't win anything in 2000. The Supreme Court didn't want the votes counted.
wco81 wrote:Woodward is going to be way more impartial than Franks.
I bet If I put that to a vote to the nation I could get a nice 50/50 split...right along those party lines.....The best part is that both sides wold think the other is nuts.
Politics .....Gotta love em.....Thank god for sports and video games.
Kerry’s comment stating that President Bush “outsourced” the fighting in Tora Bora was a direct slap in the face of all Special Operations soldiers. The whole Afghan campaign is a classic “Unconventional Warfare” scenario. A UW mission is one where teams of Green Berets enter a denied area (Afghanistan) and train a rebel force to overthrow a rogue government. Our Special Forces soldiers in Afghanistan accomplished in weeks, what Alexander the Great and the Soviet Union could not accomplish in years. John Kerry is an idiot.
______
Former SOTA Team Leader
10th Special Forces Group (Airborne).
And another (former SEAL):
As to the Tora Bora issue, Kerry said that we "outsourced" the job and therefore missed an opportunity to kill UBL. Tell that to the SF A-Teams that had infiltrated Afghanistan, trained and led the Northern Alliance into battle within a month of 9/11. The Unconventional Warfare operation conducted by the Army in Afghanistan will serve as a textbook example of how to conduct UW ops into perpetuity. Tell that to the CCT guys that were dumping air on Tora Bora, stacking up CAS 10 layers deep. Tell that to the SEALs who spent 9 days searching the caves for signs of UBL and finding only fingernails and tooth chips left from the bombing. Wrong answer, b*tch! The invasion of Afghanistan by SOF affiliated with local fighters will go down in history as a marvel of military strategy and execution. What was Kerry thinking, that Bush was orbiting Tora Bora in an AC-130 making radio calls and personally directing troops in the field? Those comments were a slap in the face to the SOF community and to General Tommy Franks. He should definitely be called on this because this is more conclusive proof of his utter disdain for our military.
But what do you expect from a guy who fragged himself twice with a M79 shooting at nothing in particular?
I don't understand why they had to train locals to fight in Tora Bora when we had men on the ground. In fact, Marines were considered to go and fight as well, but were not deployed. No one questions that the special forces didn't do a good job of training the rebels, nor that the mission to drive out the Taliban was initially successful. What's being questioned is why didn't use a bunch of Marines to fight in Tora Bora and instead relied on a handful of Special Forces and bombing. Neither of these "real solider" quotes address this, and this is what Kerry is talking about.
"I'm watching the pundits on Afghanistan," one Army general said last week. "They seem to be starting to understand the missed opportunity. The operation was not decisive in my view. That has some serious implications."
Osama bin Laden and most of his top-ranking Arab associates were able to escape from Afghanistan last year because of a series of avoidable strategic blunders by US military commanders, well-placed sources in Kabul have told the Guardian. Of the 3,000-4,000 "foreign militants" trapped in Afghanistan last November after the collapse of the Taliban, most got away.
Several high-profile military operations to capture them - most notably last December in the Tora Bora mountains - failed because Britain and the US sent in too few troops of their own. Instead, the US commander in Afghanistan, General Tommy Franks, relied too heavily on local anti-Taliban warlords who were more interested in making money than in hunting enemies of the US.
American intelligence officials have privately described this strategy as the "gravest error of the war".
But what do you expect from a guy who skipped out on Vietnam because "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada."
Those soliders can think what they want. The bottom line was that Osama was there. Radio intercepts placed him there, subsequent interviews with captured militants confirmed it.
Finally, Osama himself referred to being trapped there with 300 militants and how they got away.
If the guys who were there calling in air strikes feel offended because Kerry called out Bush on the failure to capture Osama, then TS. They didn't get the job done, end of story.
Some of those who got away are probably wreaking havoc in Iraq. And counterterrorism experts also believe they made it to Morocco (and maybe further west, across the Atlantic to the US), where they plotted to attack US ships crossing the Strait of Gibraltar. They may also have crossed the Strait and took part in the Madrid bombings.
A failure is a failure, no matter how hurt those Special Forces guys feel because Kerry pointed it out. And he wasn't the first to do so. Guys like Peter Bergin have been saying it for a couple of years.
ProvoAnC wrote:if you guys wanna monday moring quarterback, why didn't Clinton take him out when he had the chance...twice
How does not taking Osama out before 9/11 when there was no political support to do so equate with screwing the pooch on it after 9/11 when you have him surrounded? No, really- how?
so its cool to blow up 2 embassies and a US ship, but not cool to fly a plane into buildings? Gothca. I'm not trying to say that Clinton or whoever caused 9/11 because they didn't take out OBL. Or we would've caught OBL if we focused all our attention on the 'stan. Is Kerry a friggin mind reader? I'm trying to illustrate how retarded it is to say "we shoulda done that or we coulda done this." That doesn't solve anything. Any asshole can say what we should have done, the trick is figuring out how to fix what's been f***ed up. I have no intention to vote for either of the 2 douchebags and plan on voting Libertarian so please don't turn this into a my dad's better than your dad.
ProvoAnC wrote:so its cool to blow up 2 embassies and a US ship, but not cool to fly a plane into buildings? Gothca. I'm not trying to say that Clinton or whoever caused 9/11 because they didn't take out OBL. Or we would've caught OBL if we focused all our attention on the 'stan. Is Kerry a friggin mind reader? I'm trying to illustrate how retarded it is to say "we shoulda done that or we coulda done this." That doesn't solve anything. Any asshole can say what we should have done, the trick is figuring out how to fix what's been f***ed up. I have no intention to vote for either of the 2 d*****bags and plan on voting Libertarian so please don't turn this into a my dad's better than your dad.
ProvoAnC wrote:if you guys wanna monday moring quarterback, why didn't Clinton take him out when he had the chance...twice
How does not taking Osama out before 9/11 when there was no political support to do so equate with screwing the pooch on it after 9/11 when you have him surrounded? No, really- how?
WTF makes you think he got away? Have we heard or seen from him? What has he done lately?
My personal feelings are those fine soldiers didn't screw the pooch in Tora Bora. Osama is dead. He was on the wrong end of a Daisy Cutter. His DNA is part of the landscape now. And even if he's not,this is not a war that will end just because that prick's dead.
Anyone that think's Bin Laden's capture or death will signal an end to the war on terror is really stupid or hitting a very big crack pipe.
Osama was a wanted man well before 9/11. He wasn't a priority. Both side's were too busy playing politics to give a sh!t about his ass. 9/11 woke everyone up . And for a few month's politics were out of the game,and we fought united as a country. Those days are sadly over.
Civilians that have never served or seen combat should really take a pass on judging what our soldiers did in those mountains. Especially based on information passed on by a politician. Not a smart move at all. But then again people that play politics are asses anyhow.
wco81 wrote:Those soliders can think what they want. The bottom line was that Osama was there. Radio intercepts placed him there, subsequent interviews with captured militants confirmed it.
Finally, Osama himself referred to being trapped there with 300 militants and how they got away.
If the guys who were there calling in air strikes feel offended because Kerry called out Bush on the failure to capture Osama, then TS. They didn't get the job done, end of story.
Some of those who got away are probably wreaking havoc in Iraq. And counterterrorism experts also believe they made it to Morocco (and maybe further west, across the Atlantic to the US), where they plotted to attack US ships crossing the Strait of Gibraltar. They may also have crossed the Strait and took part in the Madrid bombings.
A failure is a failure, no matter how hurt those Special Forces guys feel because Kerry pointed it out. And he wasn't the first to do so. Guys like Peter Bergin have been saying it for a couple of years.
Man you really don't have a clue about Afghanistan. A failure? Your really letting politics cloud your thinking man. You really think Afghanistan is a failure?
US Special Forces performed brilliantly in Afghanistan. Kerry and Bergin can say whatever they want,but I'll bet the Russians were impressed by what the US soldiers accomplished there.
ProvoAnC wrote:I have no intention to vote for either of the 2 d*****bags and plan on voting Libertarian so please don't turn this into a my dad's better than your dad.
I am leaning this way. Is there any reason why the Libertarian candidate wasn't invited to the "debate"? Does the party have to get a certain percentage of the vote in prior elections or something like that? I know you can't let everyone in a debate, but how do they pick and choose?
So what, you have to have served to have an opinion on a matter which is central to this election?
Hey then anyone who's not a vet or in the active duty might as well not bother discussing the foreign policy issues in this election, much less vote.
It's not just the politicians who are saying it. It's counterterrorism people. We'll never know if the soldiers could have done the job at Tora Bora because the generals and politicians didn't bother to deploy enough of them.
Maybe you "warriors" should stop being so thin-skinned and learned to deal with independent ideas. You're suppose to be able to deal with bullets flying over your heads and bombs blowing up around you but if anyone criticizes your hallowed missions in any form, you're not supporting the troops or your disparaging their valor?
I don't think you realize what was accomplished in the stan. The whole war was won by SF. Or at least by SF direction with realtion to CAS, training soldiers, and fighting themselves. The war wasn't run wrong, it was finally run right letting SF off the leash and doing what they know how to do.
I just remembered why I vowed to stay out of these...
