NFL Season 2009

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:49 pm

pk500 wrote:
JackDog wrote:It's a damn shame Paul. Bills fans deserve better. Do you think they will end up in Toronto after Ralph is gone?
I hope not. That would be my football apocalypse.

Just make sure you bring a chainsaw to the last game. I wish I had.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:56 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote: What difference would it make for you personally if they played in Toronto? Buffalo would still be the main market so you'd get all their games for free (assuming they sell out) anyway. In the era of satellite tv, 24 hour news coverage, and a zillion sports channels, it doesn't really matter where teams are located anymore. Hell, NONE of my teams are in Cali where I live...that doesn't mean I can't be a die hard and have access to every single thing a person living in the same city would have...besides actually going to the games.

I'm just curious why the apocalypse would be on you if they left...to a city that would spend money on the team with a new owner. You said yourself that Ralph Wilson is past his prime...so wouldn't a change be ok...even if it was a change of scenery?

Some folks may value this aspect differently, but the community feel would no longer be there: What guys talk about at the gym or at the bar, what the local radio DJs say, what flags the local businesses fly when a team makes the playoffs, etc. I know this first hand as I grew up an Eagles fan in Giants-land, and moved to Eagles country about 5 years ago.

You may not feel a difference online or in viewing the games themselves, but there is a big difference in living in the local 'real-world' community. 'On-campus' to off, IE.

---Except maybe where you are in Cali, DB, which is notorious for fans not giving a damn about the local sports. So this might not be a difference in your case.

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:59 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:it doesn't really matter where teams are located anymore

That's total B.S.! It matters where teams are. You think anyone in Cleveland was rooting for the Ravens after the Browns left? I'm guessing it'd be the same in Buffalo, they'd HATE the Toronto team.

And imagine if the Toronto team would win a Super Bowl right after leaving, HA! I don't have to imagine what a kick in the nuts that would be.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:01 pm

webdanzer wrote:Except maybe where you are in Cali, DB, which is notorious for fans not giving a damn about the local sports. So this might not be a difference in your case.

There's a reason I despise all LA teams...and that is pretty much the reason.

I completely understand the whole "town" thing, but the same things would continue if the Bills moved to Toronto. Buffalo is still the home market and I doubt things would just suddenly stop because the team moved however many miles across the boarder. It's not like they are moving to Phoenix or something where there wouldn't be any association at all. My comments are strictly for Bills to Toronto. I can understand why people got pissed when Indy moved, or the Browns. This situation is a little different in my mind.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:11 pm

webdanzer wrote: Some folks may value this aspect differently, but the community feel would no longer be there: What guys talk about at the gym or at the bar, what the local radio DJs say, what flags the local businesses fly when a team makes the playoffs, etc. I know this first hand as I grew up an Eagles fan in Giants-land, and moved to Eagles country about 5 years ago.

You may not feel a difference online or in viewing the games themselves, but there is a big difference in living in the local 'real-world' community. 'On-campus' to off, IE.

---Except maybe where you are in Cali, DB, which is notorious for fans not giving a damn about the local sports. So this might not be a difference in your case.

But you fail to mention that you can get ALL local sports radio via the internet around the country. OMG i'm agreeing with db, the world is coming to an end.

And db you know you're giving PK too much credit. When the game is not on TV he's on JustinTV or Veetle.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:19 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
pk500 wrote:
JackDog wrote:It's a damn shame Paul. Bills fans deserve better. Do you think they will end up in Toronto after Ralph is gone?
I hope not. That would be my football apocalypse.
How many games do you go to a year? Knowing you and your purse strings...ZERO. What difference would it make for you personally if they played in Toronto? Buffalo would still be the main market so you'd get all their games for free (assuming they sell out) anyway. In the era of satellite tv, 24 hour news coverage, and a zillion sports channels, it doesn't really matter where teams are located anymore. Hell, NONE of my teams are in Cali where I live...that doesn't mean I can't be a die hard and have access to every single thing a person living in the same city would have...besides actually going to the games.

I'm just curious why the apocalypse would be on you if they left...to a city that would spend money on the team with a new owner. You said yourself that Ralph Wilson is past his prime...so wouldn't a change be ok...even if it was a change of scenery?

First, I usually go to at least one game per season at the Ralph. This year I did not, and that was an exception.

Why would I not support the Toronto Bills?

First, because I'm a proud, nearly lifelong resident of upstate N.Y., not a Canadian. One of the reasons I started following the Bills at age 8 was because they were upstate's team.

Plus fan support would NOT be one of the reasons that Ralph would move the team. The fan support in Buffalo, Western New York and Central New York is as rabid as any that for any team in any region of the country.

It would be a money grab, pure and simple. So I would reward Ralph by saying, "F*ck you, on behalf of the people of Buffalo and upstate N.Y." I wouldn't drive to Toronto to see games, I wouldn't purchase Bills' merchandise (I'm wearing my Chris Spielman #54 jersey today and my son is wearing a kid's Jim Kelly jersey, BTW), etc.

Your attitude about transient professional sports teams proves why Los Angeles is the worst pro sports market in the nation, hands down. People only care if their local team is winning, and people generally don't give a f*ck if their team has left SoCal.

In other locales, the professional sports franchise is a source of pride, part of the integral fabric of the community. That's not the case in L.A.

Sure, I follow a Canadian hockey team. But I never followed the Sabres, oddly enough. While the support for the Sabres is strong, it's not a Western New York institution like that for the Bills. It's just different.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:29 pm

Rodster wrote:
But you fail to mention that you can get ALL local sports radio via the internet around the country. OMG i'm agreeing with db, the world is coming to an end.

You're picking out one aspect of what I was talking about. Sure, like the tv coverage, you can seek it out on the internet, but when you live in the area the radio coverage is just on. (Barber,bus,deli etc) I brought it up in the context of how it contributes to the feel in the community, not to say it was ONLY available locally.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:29 pm

pk500 wrote:Your attitude about transient professional sports teams proves why Los Angeles is the worst pro sports market in the nation, hands down. People only care if their local team is winning, and people generally don't give a f*ck if their team has left SoCal.

In other locales, the professional sports franchise is a source of pride, part of the integral fabric of the community. That's not the case in L.A.

It's not MY attitude. I've lived all over the country, hence my love for different teams. But that doesn't mean I'm not as big of a fan as you because I live in Los Angeles does it? I hate ALL LA teams because of the fact that no one here gives a rats ass if they aren't winning. You know how many Laker fans I want to run off of the road during the playoffs because they feel the need to fly their flags on their cars.

I was just wondering why it would be so devastating to you if they moved...that's why I asked. I wasn't attacking you or giving you my "attitude" on transient sports teams. I'd love to live in a place with all four major sports teams...I loved living in Phoenix (though that's pretty much LA EAST as far as fan support goes) because I could be a fan with everyone else (even though my real loyalties are with other teams).

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:44 pm

webdanzer wrote:I brought it up in the context of how it contributes to the feel in the community, not to say it was ONLY available locally.

Yeah, that's the best part about being a sports fan in my opinion, the effect the teams have on their community.

Heck, just this morning I'm driving to work on the freeway and two idiots were on an overpass draping a bedsheet over the side that they spray painted "BEAT LA!" on (the Cavs play the Lakers tonight). Everybody was honking as the drove under it, it cracked me up.

That's the kinda stuff you miss out on when you root for teams hundreds of miles away, with or without internet radio and satellite TV.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:47 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote: I'd love to live in a place with all four major sports teams...I loved living in Phoenix (though that's pretty much LA EAST as far as fan support goes) because I could be a fan with everyone else (even though my real loyalties are with other teams).

Man when I lived in Mesa,we only had the Suns and spring training baseball. If I only knew...

My family loves sports and we really enjoy living in a city that has all four major sports teams. Dom has turned into a big Twins fan and we all like going to Wild games. We live about four blocks from the Xcel center so I bought season tickets. We can walk to every game thanks to the Skywalk system here. Wings are in town tonight! The Timberwolves suck but we get free tickets from a neighbor that works for the team. I hate the Vikings but I have to admit it's a blast to go watch them live. I root for the visiting teams.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:44 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
pk500 wrote:Your attitude about transient professional sports teams proves why Los Angeles is the worst pro sports market in the nation, hands down. People only care if their local team is winning, and people generally don't give a f*ck if their team has left SoCal.

In other locales, the professional sports franchise is a source of pride, part of the integral fabric of the community. That's not the case in L.A.
It's not MY attitude. I've lived all over the country, hence my love for different teams. But that doesn't mean I'm not as big of a fan as you because I live in Los Angeles does it? I hate ALL LA teams because of the fact that no one here gives a rats ass if they aren't winning.

And that's exactly why I would be upset if the Bills left Buffalo. People in Western New York and here in Central New York DO care about the Bills, win or lose. As Web said about the appeal of franchises to local areas, the Bills are a topic of constant conversation in bars, among friends, at workplaces, on local sports radio, etc.

dbdynsty25 wrote:I was just wondering why it would be so devastating to you if they moved...that's why I asked.

See the above paragraph and everything else I wrote in my original post. Thought I spelled it out pretty clearly.

But two final reasons I forgot: The Bills are king in Buffalo. Hands down. But football always, Always, ALWAYS would be second fiddle in Toronto to the Leafs. Nothing EVER will supplant the Leafs as the main, 24/7, 365 topic of sports conversation in Toronto.

One, the Toronto area fanbase will care about the Bills from the start of training camp in July until the start of Leafs' training camp in early September. That's not a joke; it's a fact. And it's not right for a franchise like the Bills that enjoys such universal, year-round support in its current community, good times or bad.

Two, the Toronto Bills would play in a dome. That's hideous considering how many memorable games have been played in the snow at the Ralph and how the wintry conditions late in the season sometimes offer such a great home-field advantage for the Bills.

I'll never forget a Bills' game against Miami in December 2007 that my wife and I attended. The weather was chilly but dry when the game started, and some of the Dolphins' players didn't wear long sleeves.

Then early in the third quarter, the wind kicked up and a big lake-effect squall dumped snow on the Ralph. The fans went nuts, including my wife, me and our friends, and the stadium PA immediately played "Let It Snow" during the next commercial timeout.

The Bills won, too. One of many classic days we've enjoyed at the Ralph.

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:21 pm

pk500 wrote:
Two, the Toronto Bills would play in a dome. That's hideous considering how many memorable games have been played in the snow at the Ralph and how the wintry conditions late in the season sometimes offer such a great home-field advantage for the Bills.

That's another reason why last weekend was so dull, compared to what you'd normally expect from the Divisional weekend... not only where three of the games unexciting, but those three games were in domes. Pansies.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:38 pm

I hope the Bills don't come to Toronto -not that I have anything against the Bills or Buffalo. I thought it was pretty pathetic the way the NHL left Winnipeg and Quebec City in the lurch and I'd feel the same way if Toronto grabbed Buffalo's team.

Frankly Toronto doesn't deserve an NFL team based on the mediocre ticket sales and atmosphere at the Bills Rogers Centre games. Worse, the sports writer hacks and radio talk shows would be absolutely insufferable if they got one.

Best wishes,

Doug

icvu42 · Post by **icvu42** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:54 pm

Who will eventually end up back in LA? Ive heard the Rams, Jaguars, Bills & Raiders all mentioned as possibilities.

Rick

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:08 pm

icvu42 wrote:Who will eventually end up back in LA? Ive heard the Rams, Jaguars, Bills & Raiders all mentioned as possibilities.

Rick

I'd put money on the Jags.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:38 pm

Even the local media here in Tampa thinks that the Jags are going to move. They've mentioned LA, Canada and even London.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:26 pm

dougb wrote:I hope the Bills don't come to Toronto -not that I have anything against the Bills or Buffalo. I thought it was pretty pathetic the way the NHL left Winnipeg and Quebec City in the lurch and I'd feel the same way if Toronto grabbed Buffalo's team.

Frankly Toronto doesn't deserve an NFL team based on the mediocre ticket sales and atmosphere at the Bills Rogers Centre games. Worse, the sports writer hacks and radio talk shows would be absolutely insufferable if they got one.

Best wishes,

Doug

Personally, I don't care whether the Bills move or stay, I think their die hard fans will always be there. I disagree that TO would have just a mediocre following of the team though, as when they played there with MIA this season it was a sold out game albeit dull affair. Who can TO cheer for? Their Argos NOT?

I do agree about the dull the dome as some have mentioned aboved, there's just no atmosphere whatsover. Went to watch a couple of Jays game last year while on business and I was bored.

And I lived in TO for a number of years, do I want to hate another professional sports team other than the Leafs, Raptors and the Argos (CFL)?

vinny-b · Post by **vinny-b** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:32 pm

wow. Viewing the #2 episode of the 'History of AFL football in color' via the NFL Network (unfortunately i missed episode #1)

this new documentary series is fascinating. Any football fan who receives the NFL Network and doesn't check this, is missing out

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:03 am

Rodster wrote:Even the local media here in Tampa thinks that the Jags are going to move. They've mentioned LA, Canada and even London.

They pretty much have to. Jacksonville's just not in position to support the team at the economic level that a modern NFL franchise needs.

I don't think we'll see a London franchise in the future. I know the interest is there but I can't see them working out the logistics. Plus I think that team would be at a big disadvantage for free agents who wouldn't want to leave the country.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:12 am

Brando70 wrote:
I don't think we'll see a London franchise in the future. I know the interest is there but I can't see them working out the logistics. Plus I think that team would be at a big disadvantage for free agents who wouldn't want to leave the country.

I dont think it will happen either but I would like to point out that the Rams have that same disadvantage with regards to FAs....

Plus, except for the security grope and sometimes rape, flying from NY to London isnt that far worse than flying from NY to SD.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:23 am

NFL fans, I give you the new Vikings fight song thanks to Prince.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tOILaG2alA

Prince...What in the hell????? It sounds like a funeral song.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:44 pm

JackDog wrote:NFL fans, I give you the new Vikings fight song thanks to Prince.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tOILaG2alA

Prince...What in the hell????? It sounds like a funeral song.

I'm a rabid, ridiculous and completely over-the-top Prince fan.

That song is just freaking awful!

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:04 pm

Brando70 wrote:
Rodster wrote:Even the local media here in Tampa thinks that the Jags are going to move. They've mentioned LA, Canada and even London.
They pretty much have to. Jacksonville's just not in position to support the team at the economic level that a modern NFL franchise needs.

I don't think we'll see a London franchise in the future. I know the interest is there but I can't see them working out the logistics. Plus I think that team would be at a big disadvantage for free agents who wouldn't want to leave the country.

London can provide a great lifestyle if you have the money. No accident that rich people from all over the world gravitate there.

It would be different for players on the practice squad earning the minimum.

The logistics are bad. Imagine a west coast team traveling all the way over there while the home team is there. 6 hours difference in time zone too and already teams complain about traveling across the country with just a 3 hour time difference.

I doubt there's sustained interest to support a local NFL team though. It's one thing to fill up Wembley once a year with a lot of American expats and curious Euros paying probably inflated prices but to do that 8 times a year and two exhibition games?

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:15 pm

8hrs difference.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:24 pm

I was thinking of from NY or EST.

And probably thinking more of CET than GMT.

It's tough enough for teams based on the East Coast. Impossible for West Coast teams.