OT: Election/Politics thread, Part 6

[greggsand]

Just saw BO on Monday Night Football, he said if could change anything in sports it would be a college football playoff. Now if he just would stand-up for legalized internet gambling, I'd prob donate $1000 to the cause!

[Teal]

Just saw BO on Monday Night Football, he said if could change anything in sports it would be a college football playoff. Now if he just would stand-up for legalized internet gambling, I'd prob donate $1000 to the cause!

That-a-way to vote on the real issues...

[Feanor]

After this man has wrecked the economy and destroyed constitutional law with his judicial appointments, what can he do for an encore? He can cripple the military and gamble America's future on his ability to sit down with enemy nations and talk them out of causing trouble.

Can you wreck something that's already wrecked?

[greggsand]

Just saw BO on Monday Night Football, he said if could change anything in sports it would be a college football playoff. Now if he just would stand-up for legalized internet gambling, I'd prob donate $1000 to the cause!

That-a-way to vote on the real issues...

Hey, gambling is a real "issue" in my world (just ask my wife).

[XXXIV]

After this man has wrecked the economy and destroyed constitutional law with his judicial appointments, what can he do for an encore? He can cripple the military and gamble America's future on his ability to sit down with enemy nations and talk them out of causing trouble.

Can you wreck something that's already wrecked?

Multiple choice answer.

A)You can make the damage worse.
B)You can make it last longer.
C)You can make it permanent.
D)A and B

[Feanor]

Thanks, but it was a rhetorical question. After eight years of a Republican president and six years of a Republican congress have left the economy in its worse state since the Great Depression, a laissez-faire type like Sowell crying about how Obama's going to come in and wreck the economy is incredibly funny.

For someone who has actually accomplished nothing to blithely talk about taking away what has been earned by those who have accomplished something, and give it to whomever he chooses in the name of "spreading the wealth," is the kind of casual arrogance that has led to many economic catastrophes in many countries.

So Obama's more progressive tax policies and increased welfare spending are going to cause economic catastrophe, eh. Never mind that other Western countries with even more leftish economic policies are doing just as well or better than the United States during this current global economic meltdown. Sowell would do better to worry about the current economic catastrophe where consumer demand has fallen for the first time since 1991 and the Fed has only one percentage point of wiggle room left, instead of convincing himself that another catastrophe is on its way unless we get four more years of Bush economic policy.

[Naples39]

It's a shame that bashing CEOs and vilifying corporations for daring to make a profit is so in vogue right now.

If it wasn't, maybe McCain and other republicans would be willing to criticize Obama for his tax policies that will actually do real economic damage--his corporate and capital tax increases. I'm not sure how the economy is supposed to recover in the most unfriendly environment towards raising capital in decades.

Capital formation grows businesses, and hence jobs. Writing checks to those below the poverty line doesn't create jobs or help the economy under any economic theory I've ever heard.

This is what scares me most about Obama economic policy and has the potential to do the most damage.

[pk500]

Capital formation grows businesses, and hence jobs. Writing checks to those below the poverty line doesn't create jobs or help the economy under any economic theory I've ever heard.

This is what scares me most about Obama economic policy and has the potential to do the most damage.

Agreed. And it's exactly why I'm pulling the lever for Bob Barr tomorrow!

Take care,
PK

[JRod]

It's a shame that bashing CEOs and vilifying corporations for daring to make a profit is so in vogue right now.

If it wasn't, maybe McCain and other republicans would be willing to criticize Obama for his tax policies that will actually do real economic damage--his corporate and capital tax increases. I'm not sure how the economy is supposed to recover in the most unfriendly environment towards raising capital in decades.

Capital formation grows businesses, and hence jobs. Writing checks to those below the poverty line doesn't create jobs or help the economy under any economic theory I've ever heard.

This is what scares me most about Obama economic policy and has the potential to do the most damage.

What bizarro world are we living in? The last eight years were a disaster. Would total failure be appropriate? Yet most would rather continue a similar economic policy than try something new. This is what astounds me.

John McCain, at the heart of his campaign has not done enough to distinguish himself from Bush's policies. With all this talk about Obama's policy, no one on this board has looked at what McCain has promised to do to get us out of this horrible situation. He's going to continue Bush's tax cuts and give us a large credit for health insurance.

So what you are saying is that you aren't so much supporting John McCain and his policies but repudiating Obama's? If anything John McCain has not put together a clear plan what he wants to do.

He says he'll grow jobs at home. He help small businesses. He'll keep taxes low. That's political drivel in it's purest form. What's his plan. DSP has had pages of debate over Obama's policies. Yet I can't remember pages of debates over McCain's maybe outside of the surge. What does that tell you.

McCain has an absence of a plan. In this bizarro climate people would rather support an absence of a plan than Obama's plan. That tells me people are trying to find any reason to not vote for Obama. Rather than reasons to vote for McCain.

[XXXIV]

Thanks, but it was a rhetorical question. After eight years of a Republican president and six years of a Republican congress have left the economy in its worse state since the Great Depression, a laissez-faire type like Sowell crying about how Obama's going to come in and wreck the economy is incredibly funny.

You are welcome.

You mean funny ha ha or funny strange?

[RobVarak]

McCain has an absence of a plan. In this bizarro climate people would rather support an absence of a plan than Obama's plan. That tells me people are trying to find any reason to not vote for Obama. Rather than reasons to vote for McCain.

I really don't mean this as a personal attack, but that kind of rhetoric is either ignorant or intentionally misleading. Either you know he has a plan and are playing partisan or you need to spend at least 5 seconds with Google to find out if it's true.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/

And it's not an empty shell either. He and Palin have spent 90% of every stump speech for the last 4 weeks talking about the details outlined in that plan. Virtually every interview he's given over that period addressed some portion of these details. And a good number of the issues in his economic platform are different from those of the Bush administration.

There's been a lot less discussion about it here because it's a reasonable and centrist and people think he means most of what he says (As much as any politician, that is).

Most of the discussion about Obama's plan has been about his tax plan, whether or not his platform is an honest representation of his politics (and what exactly those politics are) and the efficacy of doing things like raising taxes when an economy is in recession.

McCain may have failed to boil his plan down to a sound bite like Obama's "95%" whopper, but it's still a plan.

[JRod]

McCain has an absence of a plan. In this bizarro climate people would rather support an absence of a plan than Obama's plan. That tells me people are trying to find any reason to not vote for Obama. Rather than reasons to vote for McCain.

I really don't mean this as a personal attack, but that kind of rhetoric is either ignorant or intentionally misleading. Either you know he has a plan and are playing partisan or you need to spend at least 5 seconds with Google to find out if it's true.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/

And it's not an empty shell either. He and Palin have spent 90% of every stump speech for the last 4 weeks talking about the details outlined in that plan. Virtually every interview he's given over that period addressed some portion of these details. And a good number of the issues in his economic platform are different from those of the Bush administration.

There's been a lot less discussion about it here because it's a reasonable and centrist. Most of the discussion about Obama's plan has been about his tax plan, whether or not his platform is an honest representation of his politics (and what exactly those politics are) and the efficacy of doing things like raising taxes when an economy is in recession.

McCain may have failed to boil his plan down to a sound bite like Obama's "95%" whopper, but it's still a plan.

You think it's reasonable and centrist because that's what you think. But you are not a centrist as you would like us to believe. And his policies are pretty vague. Obama does give bullets too, so his are vague.

However going to mccain.com or obama.com amounts nothing more than political drivel. Yes I've read more than you know.

However on taxes, he wants to continue the Bush tax cuts and to give corporations a tax cut. He wants to give people a health care credit, thinking this will take care of the health care problems. It won't the problem is larger than people not being able to afford health care.

His plan for small businesses is woefully inadequate. He wants to help small business by reducing energy, health care tax credit and estate tax reform.

Back to health care, his tax credit for health care will either shift the health care burden from businesses onto employees or it won't lower health care burdens to businesses. If it does that than you are just paying out of pocket for health care and your employer is paying less.

His emphasis though has been on government spending. Heck it's not even about that, it's about his crusade to end earmarks. Admirable but not enough.

Most of his other less sexy platforms are in-line with the GOP. Things like education, energy reform, judicial nominations, Iraq and Afghanistan just to name a few.

So this brings us back, on the whole, he doesn't propose sweeping changes from Bush or GOP policies. And right there is the reason why I believe more people are voting against Obama because of uncertainty rather than certainty for McCain.

McCain can say he's not Bush. Obama can say that he is. Problem is that the last eight years have shown that GOP and conservative policies have been a massive failure for this time. Chalk that up to the incompetent Bush administration or a repudiation of the GOP platform, but common sense dictates that if that last 8 years have been a failure then McCain needed to do enough to show that he won't continue those failed policies. McCain never surpassed that benchmark and is grave danger of losing this election.

[Teal]

In other words, you want McCain to have been a damned democrat, a liberal, or something of the sort. Predictable, but still quite unbelievable. Anything other than a republican. Well, that's what he is. He is most certainly not Bush, no matter what the blue kool aid crowd wants to chant and repeat ad nauseum. But it would not have mattered. Had McCain gone further left, you and others would've painted him a 'me too' candidate, and repudiated him anyway.

[Jackdog]

Jrod,you've read more than we know??
After months of reading your antagonizing comments I know exactly what's on your nightstand.



I vote you "Arithmetic Man" in this forum. You add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

[fsquid]

I'm guessing the empty suit gets 360 electoral votes tonight. Hopefully, the GOP can regroup get away from the neocons and give a bloodbath in 2010.

[Jared]

I vote you "Arithmetic Man" in this forum. You add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

Has JRod been starting any personal attacks in this thread? I understand that you disagree with his posts, and sometimes the tone of his posts. Well, the tone of a lot of these posts haven't been perfect, and I really don't care about that. That is, someone can show frustration, be upset, be sarcastic, etc. HOWEVER, there's no need for the personal cheap shots. Consider this the thread-wide warning: none of this kind of stuff (personal cheap shots), or I will ban and/or close the thread at my discretion.

[sportdan30]

Tried to vote this morning. There was at least 150 people in line and no parking places to be had. I'll have to leave work a little early if I have any chance of voting today. I've never seen my polling place like this before.

[Feanor]

I'll say it again - they need to switch Election Day to a Saturday or make it a public holiday for everybody, not just government workers.

Bush should have done it since holding the election on a week day must help Democrats who are more likely to get votes from those without jobs.

[Brando70]

My friends...

I woke up to an unusually warm November morning here at the end of the earth. Warm enough that I walked to my polling place, enjoying a few tunes on my iPod while I prepared to do my little part for democracy. I got in line, filled in my bubbles, and submitted my ballot. I walked back home, stopping to pick up some coffee, and marveled at how easy it is for us to perform something that others die for. No gunmen, no strongmen, no obstacles to me walking a few blocks to elect my representatives.

So no more arguing from me. Let the chips fall where they may. Get out and vote for the candidates of your choice: Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Constitution, Natural Law, Silly. The point is to exercise this privilege we should be proud to have, even if politics is a dirty business.

[mixdj1]

Tried to vote this morning. There was at least 150 people in line and no parking places to be had. I'll have to leave work a little early if I have any chance of voting today. I've never seen my polling place like this before.

Same here. I went 30 minutes before the polls opened and the lot was full and there was a line of cars at the entry to parking lot. I'll have to try again later in the day.

[Slumberland]

Remember to hit up Starbucks for your free post-voting coffee if you're into that sort of thing. I think Ben and Jerry's is giving away free cones as well.

Just trying to keep the focus on what's important.

[Naples39]

What bizarro world are we living in? The last eight years were a disaster. Would total failure be appropriate? Yet most would rather continue a similar economic policy than try something new. This is what astounds me.

John McCain, at the heart of his campaign has not done enough to distinguish himself from Bush's policies. With all this talk about Obama's policy, no one on this board has looked at what McCain has promised to do to get us out of this horrible situation. He's going to continue Bush's tax cuts and give us a large credit for health insurance.

So what you are saying is that you aren't so much supporting John McCain and his policies but repudiating Obama's? If anything John McCain has not put together a clear plan what he wants to do.

He says he'll grow jobs at home. He help small businesses. He'll keep taxes low. That's political drivel in it's purest form. What's his plan. DSP has had pages of debate over Obama's policies. Yet I can't remember pages of debates over McCain's maybe outside of the surge. What does that tell you.

McCain has an absence of a plan. In this bizarro climate people would rather support an absence of a plan than Obama's plan. That tells me people are trying to find any reason to not vote for Obama. Rather than reasons to vote for McCain.

First of all, there is are an infinite number of variations of economic plans between Obama's plan and George Bush's 'policies' (no one ever really wants to get specific and say what Bush policies caused certain economic effects, so I'll play along as silly as that is).

I expressed an opinion of why I think Obama's policy is bad, namely about corporate and capital gains taxes. John McCain has called for a reduction in corporate tax rates. This is not Obama policy, this is not W. policy, this is McCain policy, and it is different.


Second, if the choice is between a somewhat unfocused plan (and I'm not conceding that McCain's plan is that), and a plan that could cause a fundamental shift in the policy of the country that I don't agree with, you are damn right I will vote 'against' one plan rather than vote 'for' the other.

It's also quite rich to me to hear a staunch democrat say we should vote for a candidate and not against the other. Voting against Bush was how Kerry got half his votes in 2004, and Obama's vague 'change' campaign is a thinly veiled attempt to get people to do the same thing--voting against the Republicans is the most important thing, worrying about what Obama's policies actually are is of secondary importance.


Lastly, I have an outlandish request for the future. Next time we allocate blame/credit on a president for economic conditions, could we actually require that the advocate point to a specific policy/action of the president and point to a direct effect that it caused. Giving the president all blame/credit by proximity is a fool's errand.

I'm gonna try really really hard for this to be my last post about these candidates....

[Naples39]

Shall we keep a scorecard of today's mayhem?

I'll start;
Republican campaign workers thrown out of Philly polling sites in violation of PA law

Nudist vote being suppressed?

[webdanzer]

Remember to hit up Starbucks for your free post-voting coffee if you're into that sort of thing. I think Ben and Jerry's is giving away free cones as well.

Just trying to keep the focus on what's important.

I have the cup in front of me, but even though it was free, it is still Starbucks.

[matthewk]

You think it's reasonable and centrist because that's what you think.

Yogi Berra would be so proud