OT: Election/Politics thread, Part 6

[Jackdog]

What do you mean? I don't hate Obama's brother and aunt!


EDIT: I realized upon rereading that this sounded cold and uncaring-nothing could be further from the truth. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people.

It's the truth. It didn't sound cold too me. Then again I understand what kind of cracka you are.

[Jackdog]

Without fault?

That's the way to take responsibility.

Don't worry, the socialists will try to put undeserving people in homes again and screw it up again and then the "mainstream" thinkers, like Palin, will get back in power soon enough.

You promise?

[Teal]

What do you mean? I don't hate Obama's brother and aunt.


EDIT: I realized upon rereading that this sounded cold and uncaring-nothing could be further from the truth. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people.

It's the truth. It didn't sound cold too me. Then again I understand what kind of cracka you are.

I know it is-I'm just trying to stave off the inevitable backlash from the overly sensitive types.

And what kind of cracka would that be, homey?

[wco81]

Without fault?

That's the way to take responsibility.

Don't worry, the socialists will try to put undeserving people in homes again and screw it up again and then the "mainstream" thinkers, like Palin, will get back in power soon enough.

You promise?

That's how it's suppose to work, if the govt. screws up, you put in a different govt.

Or were you hoping that if Obama wins, the economy stays down so that your party gets back in?

[Jared]

Rob,

1) What about Obama's prior work in either the state Senate or Senate is soooo far out of the mainstream? If you're saying that you think Obama will be a liberal, well, yeah. And if he's going to seem "radical" to National Review readers, well, yeah, probably. If you're saying he's going to be actually radical, there's no evidence in his record as a politician of doing this. And there's no evidence that his positions (either judged by his legislative record or campaign positions) is far outside of the mainstream. Liberal, yes. Radical, no.

2) The "backlash" when people question his ideology is not because of some cult of personality, but rather because the questioning is premised on shadowy associations, conjecture, and double standards; and not based on the things that you usually judge a person's future record by (that is, their past record as a politician, policy proposals, etc). To believe Obama will be someone outside of the mainstream doesn't fit in with the evidence that we have. It fits in with the most extreme predictions of what Obama might be...but they're predictions that don't make any sense unless you accept a bunch of (at best) tenuous assumptions.

If you were making these arguments about, say, Kucinich or McKinney, hey, I'd totally agree. But Obama isn't on the outside of the mainstream left. It's just a ploy (along with the total misuse of the term socialist, the attempts to yoke Ayers to Obama, the Khalidi thing, etc.) to scare people into not voting for Obama. Which, unfortunately, is all the McCain campaign has got right now.

[RobVarak]

Rob,

1) What about Obama's prior work in either the state Senate or Senate is soooo far out of the mainstream? If you're saying that you think Obama will be a liberal, well, yeah. And if he's going to seem "radical" to National Review readers, well, yeah, probably. If you're saying he's going to be actually radical, there's no evidence in his record as a politician of doing this. And there's no evidence that his positions (either judged by his legislative record or campaign positions) is far outside of the mainstream. Liberal, yes. Radical, no.

I'll say again, Obama is a self-professed radical. He uses the term repeatedly in his books and even his rhetoric in the campaing repeatedly hammers on about how he's going to "fundamentally change" the United States.

Radical: Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radical political views

His record in the State Senate was not somewhat liberal. It was so liberal as to be well outside the median of liberal voting, as was his record in the US Senate.

In Illinois he had a 100% Planned Parenthood rating, including the already-discussed Born Alive Act votes, which put him outside the mainstream (indeed the entirety) of the US Congress.

He attempted to join with several other moronic Chicago state senators in their opposition to the self-defense execption to the ludicrous and ineffective Chicago handgun ban.

In a window to his devotion to Cass Sunstein, he voted to amend the Constitution of the State of Illinois to grant everyone a right to universal health care coverage.

In a nod to good buddy Bill Ayers and his "mainstream" beliefs on juvenile justice, he attempted to block the state's ability to prosecute juveniles as adults.

He wanted to allow unfettered embryonic stem cell research.

This is not the record of a traditional Lakefront Liberal, as we like to call them in Chicago.

2) The "backlash" when people question his ideology is not because of some cult of personality, but rather because the questioning is premised on shadowy associations, conjecture, and double standards; and not based on the things that you usually judge a person's future record by (that is, their past record as a politician, policy proposals, etc). To believe Obama will be someone outside of the mainstream doesn't fit in with the evidence that we have. It fits in with the most extreme predictions of what Obama might be...but they're predictions that don't make any sense unless you accept a bunch of (at best) tenuous assumptions.

I hardly find it "tenuous" to conclude that someone with the temerity to sit down and work with Bill Ayers to "reform" education or to praise and be influenced by Jeremiah Wright or raise a glass to Rashid Khalidi has a worldview that is outside the American mainstream.

Maybe these associations really are just examples of Obama's oracular ability to soak up any and all viewpoints. Admirable though that may be, it's hardly representative of the philosophy that most Americans adhere to and like to see in our leaders.

If you were making these arguments about, say, Kucinich or McKinney, hey, I'd totally agree. But Obama isn't on the outside of the mainstream left. It's just a ploy (along with the total misuse of the term socialist, the attempts to yoke Ayers to Obama, the Khalidi thing, etc.) to scare people into not voting for Obama. Which, unfortunately, is all the McCain campaign has got right now.

It's not a ploy. It's a legitimate discussion of a candidate that has less experience and qualifications for the Presidency than anyone in decades. It's also a response to the propoganda machine of the combined Obama campaign and legacy media.

It's not a scare tactic to point out where a candidate's rhetoric doesn't match his record, or background or philosophy.

As for your last sentence, that's just more of the same horseshit about negative campaigning that the Obama side has been slinging for weeks. McCain has laid out substantive positions on the issues in the debates, on the stump and through media interviews. But every time he points out an Obama flaw or incongruity in his platform it's a "smear."

Of course repeatedly ignoring the issues and talking about how McCain is Bush's "sidekick" isn't a smear. I don't know when Obama decided that hypcorisy was a virtue, but apparently he has.

[matthewk]

EDIT: Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people, and the especially rich idea that Obama somehow cares about you, when his brother lives in a hut and his aunt in a slum.

BTW, his aunt is here illegally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_ ... A8LRKGOrgF

[pk500]

EDIT: Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people, and the especially rich idea that Obama somehow cares about you, when his brother lives in a hut and his aunt in a slum.

BTW, his aunt is here illegally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_ ... A8LRKGOrgF

And the relevance of that? Seriously, if this issue sways anyone's vote, they're a moron.

This woman is his father's half-sister. It sounds like Barack Obama has little relationship with her. Hell, my aunt (father's late brother's ex-wife) lives here in Syracuse, and I've seen her twice in the last 35 years and could tell you little about what's going on in her world right now.

Take care,
PK

[RobVarak]

EDIT: Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people, and the especially rich idea that Obama somehow cares about you, when his brother lives in a hut and his aunt in a slum.

BTW, his aunt is here illegally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_ ... A8LRKGOrgF

And the relevance of that? Seriously, if this issue sways anyone's vote, they're a moron.

This woman is his father's half-sister. It sounds like Barack Obama has little relationship with her. Hell, my aunt (father's late brother's ex-wife) lives here in Syracuse, and I've seen her twice in the last 35 years and could tell you little about what's going on in her world right now.

Take care,
PK

To me the only relevance is as another datapoint about Obama's fraudulent fundraising structure.

[greggsand]

EDIT: Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the assertion that liberals are somehow more caring than other people, and the especially rich idea that Obama somehow cares about you, when his brother lives in a hut and his aunt in a slum.

BTW, his aunt is here illegally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_ ... A8LRKGOrgF

And the relevance of that? Seriously, if this issue sways anyone's vote, they're a moron.

This woman is his father's half-sister. It sounds like Barack Obama has little relationship with her. Hell, my aunt (father's late brother's ex-wife) lives here in Syracuse, and I've seen her twice in the last 35 years and could tell you little about what's going on in her world right now.

Take care,
PK

I have an uncle I haven't seen in 15 years, he could be in-jail, smuggling parrots across the border, or the winner of "big brother 8" - who the hell knows? Too funny.

[Feanor]

Confirmation that an Obama presidency means the USA will be overrun by illegal alien Kenyans.

Being serious, the illegal immigration debate hasn't featured much in this campaign has it? I guess the giant economic problems sucked the air out of that issue.

[Jackdog]

Without fault?

That's the way to take responsibility.

Don't worry, the socialists will try to put undeserving people in homes again and screw it up again and then the "mainstream" thinkers, like Palin, will get back in power soon enough.

You promise?

That's how it's suppose to work, if the govt. screws up, you put in a different govt.

Or were you hoping that if Obama wins, the economy stays down so that your party gets back in?

My party has never been in.

[GTHobbes]

I love it.

"(CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama hit key swing states Saturday, taking a jab at his GOP counterpart's endorsement by the nation's vice president.

At an event in Laramie, Wyoming, on Saturday, Vice President Dick Cheney said he will cast his ballot for the McCain-Palin ticket.

"This year, of course, I'm not on the ballot, so I am here ... not to vote for me, but I want to join daughter Liz, who is with me today, join us in casting ... our ballots for John McCain and Sarah Palin."

Obama started his day with a morning rally in Henderson, Nevada, and later moves on to Pueblo, Colorado, and Springfield, Missouri.

In prepared remarks for the rally in Pueblo, Obama lashed out at the Cheney endorsement.

"I'd like to congratulate Sen. McCain on this endorsement because, he really earned it. That endorsement didn't come easy," according to the remarks. "George Bush may be in an undisclosed location, but Dick Cheney's out there on the campaign trail because he'd be delighted to pass the baton to John McCain."

Obama continues, "He knows that with John McCain, you get a twofer: George Bush's economic policy and Dick Cheney's foreign policy. But that's a risk we cannot afford to take."

Earlier at a rally in Henderson, Nevada, Obama continued to defend his tax plan for the middle class -- and defended against "socialist" claims.

"The choice in this election isn't between tax cuts and no tax cuts, it's about whether you believe we should only reward wealth or we should also reward the work and the workers who give it," he said. "John McCain calls this socialistic. I call it opportunity."

Across the country, former President Clinton hit the campaign trail for Obama in Beckley, West Virginia.

Clinton defended Obama's economic policies and blasted the GOP for believing in a "top-down economy, and we can't afford the wrong philosophy, and they're out there whacking on Obama saying he's for redistribution. Gimme a break, folks."

"We just had the biggest redistribution of income upwards in the last eight years since the 1920s, and we know how the 1920s ended," he added.

[Teal]

"John McCain calls this socialistic. I call it opportunity."

So does Hugo Chavez.

[Jared]

I'll say again, Obama is a self-professed radical. He uses the term repeatedly in his books and even his rhetoric in the campaing repeatedly hammers on about how he's going to "fundamentally change" the United States.

Well, by that definition (wanting "fundamental change"), then there are a lot of Americans that are "radicals". Time for me to put my Che Guevara shirt on....

In Illinois he had a 100% Planned Parenthood rating, including the already-discussed Born Alive Act votes, which put him outside the mainstream (indeed the entirety) of the US Congress.

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_d ... ice&rtype=

In 2006, 27/100 senators had a 100% Planned Parenthood rating, including Obama. Not out of the mainstream; unless 1/4th of the Senate and a lot of House members are out of the mainstream. And I've discussed the Born Alive act vote, which isn't the way conservatives portray it. So this point is an exaggeration.

He attempted to join with several other moronic Chicago state senators in their opposition to the self-defense execption to the ludicrous and ineffective Chicago handgun ban.

This is the only point that's even close. I'm not sure I would have agreed with Obama on this, although I understand his position (that this would weaken gun control laws).

In a window to his devotion to Cass Sunstein, he voted to amend the Constitution of the State of Illinois to grant everyone a right to universal health care coverage.

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/poll-s ... 06-28.html

Fifty-one percent of the GOPers said universal healthcare coverage should be a right of every American, and 49 percent favored allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military.

Not out of the mainstream of Republicans!

In a nod to good buddy Bill Ayers and his "mainstream" beliefs on juvenile justice, he attempted to block the state's ability to prosecute juveniles as adults.

I couldn't find any poll data on this, but the idea that juveniles shouldn't be prosecuted by adults is a prominent idea in criminal studies right now. For example:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22055708/

Again, not out of the mainstream.

He wanted to allow unfettered embryonic stem cell research.

What? I don't even know what unfettered stem cell research is. Is Obama gonna make it legal to take babies from mother's wombs for research now?

Anyways, are you talking about the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2005, that Obama voted for and passed both the House 238-194 and Senate 63-37? Or voting to endorse stem cell research in the State Senate? Something that multiple opinion polls have shown, is supported by the majority of Americans? Not out of the mainstream.

You listed a bunch of positions that are held by at least a sizable minority of Senate members, or the majority of Senate members, Americans, etc., and are taking those as evidence that Obama is an out of the mainstream radical.

Just because his positions are to the left of Blue Dog Democrats doesn't mean he's out of the mainstream. I think the mainstream in this country, looking at opinion polls, is a lot wider, and more to the left, than you think it is. The majority of the public supports Democratic positions on most policies. He's a liberal, but it's a huge stretch to say he's out of the mainstream. Unless it's mainstream as defined by, say, the National Review.

[RobVarak]

Jared,

There is an enormous distinction between establishing universal health care as a matter of policy and saying that it should be a right enumerated in the Constitution.

Come to think of it, you've convinced me. Expectations of an Obama presidency are completely reasonable and appropriate and unlikely to generate any backlash...



<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/381gFG4Crr8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

His voting record is considerably to the left of most liberals, not just Blue Dog Dem's. And his record isn't the whole story. But of course we're not allowed to discuss the rest of the story without repercussion.

[greggsand]

So other than McCain/Obama, you guys have any big state props on the bill?

Out here in CA, Prop 8 (gay marriage) is definitely a hot one...

[Naples39]

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/381gFG4Crr8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

LOL. That is hilarious.

Also, I think I've just been accused of being a RobV lackey! Rob, how does it feel to wield such power on the board to have a lackey like me and a self-confessed ditto-head like Teal?


For me, most formative day for me on deciding about Barack Obama was the day I finished his 2nd book during the Dem primaries and called BS on his centrism and pragmatism. Everything I've seen since then has just re-inforced that perception. You can explain away all these accusations of being 'far left' individually, but taken together I am unable to conclude these are all unfortunate coincidences of which Obama is a victim, and that they don't in fact reflect the views of the man himself.

As for his campaign claims and speeches, I've often found that campaign promises are more of a platform to be elected than an accurate portrayal of how a presidency will play out. If anyone is willing to take the promises of any politician at face value then I'm not sure what to say in response.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a radical, but as I've said before, in the scope of American politics, he is far left. Granted, when I've said this before, I was ridiculed by people who said outside of America, he's not far left at all, though I am still trying to figure out why that is relevant.

Obama's 2001 comments about the civil rights movement just drill it home for me. As everyone knows, Obama called it a 'tragedy' of the civil rights movement that it became a litigation-based movement, and was thus stuck in courts who are fundamentally not equipped to bring about "major redistributive change." These are unmistakably the words of a spectator who actually believes major redistributive change is a urgent policy to pursue, otherwise it wouldn't be a tragedy at all, but merely a side effect.

I'm younger than most here on this board, so I haven't participated in too many elections. Each time I've voted I've felt confident that I picked the more moderate candidate, who on prior occasions was the Dem nominee. In supporting McCain this time around, who I am far from crazy about, I am again confident that I am voting for the more moderate candidate.

[matthewk]

BTW, his aunt is here illegally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_ ... A8LRKGOrgF

And the relevance of that? Seriously, if this issue sways anyone's vote, they're a moron.

This woman is his father's half-sister. It sounds like Barack Obama has little relationship with her. Hell, my aunt (father's late brother's ex-wife) lives here in Syracuse, and I've seen her twice in the last 35 years and could tell you little about what's going on in her world right now.

Dude, chill out. I never said it was meant to change a vote.

I'm not saying it's relevent at all by itself. To me it's another blip on the truth about Obama radar. Connect enough dots and you have a picture.

The media spent days on Palin's wardrobe and her daughter's pregnency. How relevent were those?

[wco81]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth ... rkozy.html


She didn't seem to get the joke until they finally let her in on the gag.

[XXXIV]

You college kids are so funny these days.

[RobVarak]

Also, I think I've just been accused of being a RobV lackey! Rob, how does it feel to wield such power on the board to have a lackey like me and a self-confessed ditto-head like Teal?

I promise to use my fledgling power only for good. First item on the agenda: I shall end the wearing of Crocs by the end of my first term!

[XXXIV]

Also, I think I've just been accused of being a RobV lackey! Rob, how does it feel to wield such power on the board to have a lackey like me and a self-confessed ditto-head like Teal?

I promise to use my fledgling power only for good. First item on the agenda: I shall end the wearing of Crocs by the end of my first term!

Your meteoric rise to prominence is astounding. Can only think of one other whos star has risen this quickly.

If McCain loses we can all look forward to.....Varek/ Palin 2012.

[Teal]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth ... rkozy.html


She didn't seem to get the joke until they finally let her in on the gag.

It's kind of the...I dunno...POINT of a prank call.

Speaking of points...what's yours? If any?

[XXXIV]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth ... rkozy.html


She didn't seem to get the joke until they finally let her in on the gag.

It's kind of the...I dunno...POINT of a prank call.

Speaking of points...what's yours? If any?

There you go again...Thinking past the lowest level...

The point is obvious.
Palins a total moron...na na na na na...