Racing Sim Thread, Part II

[pk500]

Here is a pretty informative video on iRacing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbAC-PV3 ... o-preview/

I do have one question after watching the video. They say racing takes place on one track each week. What happens when they are racing on a track I haven't purchased? Can I only run practice laps on the tracks I own during that week? It's those kind of issues that have me concerned.

I love what I see about all of the stat tracking and career progression. I can see how this would hook me like levelling in an MMO.

Very interesting, Mix. But this has completely scared me off. Monthly fee ranges from $13 to $20, depending on subscription length. And extra cars are $15 each, with extra tracks $15 to $25 each.

That's a bit rich.

Take care,
PK

[pigpen81]

FIFA, did PK's old racing chair and wheel arrive yet?

[Gurantsu]

Here is a pretty informative video on iRacing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbAC-PV3 ... o-preview/

I do have one question after watching the video. They say racing takes place on one track each week. What happens when they are racing on a track I haven't purchased? Can I only run practice laps on the tracks I own during that week? It's those kind of issues that have me concerned.

I love what I see about all of the stat tracking and career progression. I can see how this would hook me like levelling in an MMO.

Very interesting, Mix. But this has completely scared me off. Monthly fee ranges from $13 to $20, depending on subscription length. And extra cars are $15 each, with extra tracks $15 to $25 each.

That's a bit rich.

Take care,
PK

I agree about the cost, I'm afraid they may price themselves right out of the market. On the one hand, by having a higher price you keep away the schlubs who want to drive backwards and create general chaos (not to mention line your pockets a bit more!), but on the other hand it scares away guys who are decent, respectful drivers. They will end up with a very small community of hard core drivers, but will it be enough to keep the service going? MMORPG's have a lot of competition, but it's all with other online subscription based games. iRacing's competition is the likes of GTR2 and rFactor, which offer more content right off the bat, and after the initial purchase its all free. Certainly the quality of racing varies when you jump into a public room, but the vast majority of the open races I've done have been with very good groups of racers.

I think the whole progression and stat tracking stuff is very cool, as well as needing to level to get certain liscenses. Even the way the schedule is set up with one track per week seems like it would fit well with guys like us who can't be online every night and need some flexability in the schedule. But man, $15 a month, PLUS more for tracks and car classes? Thats a bit much I think. Heck, the average expansion for a MMORPG is around $30, and come out maybe once a year or so, and include usually a ton of new content. Lord Of The Rings Online which I play has had a ton of new content in the year it's been out, all at no cost over the initial purchase price and your normal subscription. $15 for one class of cars, and $20 for a track? Thats only going to weed out many potential customers.

Another cool thing about that video is that it would make a great drinking game. Just chug a beer every time you hear the phrase "laser scanning". You'd be like PK on poker night by the end!

[pk500]

Speaking of laser-scanned tracks, has anyone tried the laser-scanned version of Eastern Creek for rFactor? It's a very nice track with superb details:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... ek%20Laser

Take care,
PK

[Jimmydeicide]

Yeh,on the i racing thing. 20 bucks for a car ? 15 for a track ?

Can you imagine how much money our Rfactor installs would be ? Thousands of dollars. It does look good but the first few classes look a bit naff and im guessing i would be - 6000 points before i could complete a practice never mind enough skill to get to another series.
Loseing points for putting a wheel off ? bit much you think ? So for practice and qualifying for the canadian grand prix Fernando Alonso would be -387 points.

The only good thing i see is it will be more standardized in the way new stuff gets added and you know the driving model and physics will be correct of a new car, my only complaint with Rfactor.

[pk500]

iRacing track and car price list:

http://www.virtualr.net/iracingcom-car- ... rice-list/

What a joke.

Take care,
PK

[Jimmydeicide]

$15 for a skip barber ,basicly an rFactor trainer no thanks.

A Pontiac solstice ? What is it GT5 ?

I racing = I dont think so.

[pk500]

I racing = I dont think so.

CLASSIC!

Take care,
PK

[Gurantsu]

Holy cow, those prices are insane. I can't see how they are going to get many subscribers. It will definitely be the most hardcore of the hardcore.

Although, with the rate of change of the tracks and series, maybe it won't be as much of a big deal. At one track a week and working through ranks maybe by the time you finally qualify for the next level you'll gladly pay for it.

If nothing else it will be interesting to see how it all works out.

[pk500]

I've seen nothing in the iRacing package to justify those prices. Are laser-scanned tracks, organized leagues and stat tracking worth those obscene prices? Hell, no.

My big question remains whether iRacing's racing, physics and damage models are so far superior to such benchmark Kaemmer sims as Grand Prix Legends and NR 2003 to justify this subscription and pricing model.

I have serious doubts.

Take care,
PK

[Jimmydeicide]

For those prices couldnt you go racing for real, come on.

Get a jalopy and enter it , go Karting for a weekend.

Driving a Solstice or the zz top mobile around the same three tracks for 3 months is not my idea of a good time.

[GB_Simo]

My big question remains whether iRacing's racing, physics and damage models are so far superior to such benchmark Kaemmer sims as Grand Prix Legends and NR 2003 to justify this subscription and pricing model.

I have serious doubts.

Even if they are, I bet people like you, me and Smurf wouldn't have the processing power to do such a simulation full justice, so by the time we're done buying all the bits and bobs needed to get the full experience, we're looking at a good amount of wedge. I was pricing up some systems the other day in a PC World store, and to get anything better than what I've got now would set me back £800 or so. $1500, plus a subscription fee, plus expansion packs? Bugger that for a game of soldiers.

Assuming the sim isn't advanced enough to justify that - in other words, that it's comparable to what we play already - then paying the iRacing sub when there's free rFactor content would be a one-way ticket to the funny farm.

[FifaInspected]

Hey Guys.

I may (may being the key word) have a window to turn a few laps tonight. Anyone else have a desire to do a little rFactor tonight? (June 10)

If someone set's it up i'll do my best to make it. I could possibly start as early as 9:30 PM ET.

[FifaInspected]

FIFA, did PK's old racing chair and wheel arrive yet?

Yes.. It arrived yesterday and i'm still pulling splinters out of my rear

[DChaps]

Sorry I have not posted anything more regarding iRacing. Here is my very quick personal summary:

1) Is it the most realistic physics in a racing sim to date?

Probably. However, I have never raced a real race car outside of karting. My experience is based on comparing it to all the other racing sims I have used. That is to say, can I personally tell a drastic difference between GPL, NR2003, GTR2, and the best rFactor mods? No, not really. It feels very immersive and intuitive and the difference between the cars modeled in the game that I have driven to date are done very well. The actual real life racers in the iRacing beta test forums have seemed to be very impressed for the most part. Is it worth the price for these physics? Well, if it really could substitute for seat/track time for an actual real life racer then probably. For someone who enjoys our rFactor poker nights and gets enough realism out of that experience, probably not.

2) Is it the most realistic track modeling in a racing sim to date?

Yes. However, again since I am inexperienced on these real life tracks I am comparing to TV, and other sims. The attention to accuracy is impressive. Will you notice the difference between bumps at Lime Rock in iRacing, as compared to rFactor? Probably not unless you have raced there in real life. I can tell you that the real life racers have been very complimentary about the accuracy of the tracks. The ovals are very well done. I need to differentiate that I am talking about the track modeling/accuracy, as I do not think the tracks themselves are doing anything special graphically. This is not Grid, Forza 2, or GT 5. Don't get me wrong, the tracks look good if you have the horse power, but there is nothing ground breaking. You can clearly see the NR2003 graphics engine in the tracks, which I actually think is a good thing overall as it does allow for the sim to work for a wide range of PC's hardware. Are these tracks worth the price of admission for me? No probably not, but maybe if they added a decent Road Atlanta.

3) Will this replace DSP rFactor Poker nights?

No, absolutely not, and that is not the group they are aiming for. There are really no pick up and play elements to this sim at all outside of testing alone on a track or time trials. I would compare it more to a serious adult athletic league. It is about rules, license advancement, training/learning, points, stat tracking, etc. It is for the serious sim racer.

Now, when I say that though, I do not mean the expert sim racer. You don't have to be good to start in iRacing. In fact, everyone starts as a rookie and you must start out in the trainer series in the low end cars and work your way up with few incidents. You need to be clean and learn proper race etiquette. This cannot happen overnight either. It can take some weeks if you are only racing a couple times a week. So even if you bought all the cars and the tracks right at the start, you will not be able to race them until you have achieved certain license levels. You can run test runs on them, but that is it.

If you are looking for a seamless but serious sim racing experience, this could be worth the price. It takes all the league management issues and makes it a breeze as everthing happens automatically. Scheduling, results, stats tracking, incident tracking, points, not to mention the servers themselves. However, it is not a league in that sense. You can register for series, depending on what license you have and then you are presented with a schedule with multiple opportunities to race per week.

I would equate it more to deciding to go SCCA racing: you plopped down money and bought a race car, paid the entry fees, got your license qualification and started racing.

They are looking into adding more league type, or pick up and play type options, but that remains to be seen.

4) So should I even try it?

Tough call. It completely depends on what you are looking for. It will basically be $20 to get a taste of it for a month and that would be just with the entry level cars. Most people will not be able to advance that far in a month even if they were willing to buy extra tracks and cars. There is a certain faction that I think will love this. These are the same folks that have spent thousands on cockpits, steering wheels, super-cooled rigs, etc.

5) What is missing?

There are currently no yellows and no pit stops. These are supposed to be coming.

There is no AI. It does not sound like there are plans for AI anytime soon. iRacing is about live racing.

There is no free form racing with friends, it is all series based racing, week by week on a designated schedule. There is discussion of more options being made available for non series racing.

At 9:00am the iRacing site will be going "public", so it will be interesting to see how it progresses. I have decided that I will be signing up for the 3 month subscription ($50), as that will give me the whole summer to get a feel for how it goes once the full service is opened up. Like I said though, I do not see this as replacing the fun of DSP rFactor poker nights. Of course all this is based on me actually having some time to race!

New iRacing website:

http://www.iracing.com

Nice impressions from a long time alpha/beta tester:

http://www.simhq.com/_motorsports4/moto ... _121a.html

Relatively comprehensive iRacing FAQ on RSC:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=314586

Some additional feedback from beta testers:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=321113

[DChaps]

Wierd, double post. Have not had that happen recently.

[pk500]

Thanks for the impressions, Don. I wish you luck with the service and hope it fulfills your needs. Keep posting your feedback based on play with the released game!

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Don:

There are a lot of things that trouble me about iRacing, but this quote from Jens Lindblad's "preview" at SimHQ bothers me the most:

“You should absolutely never ever drive into other cars on track, in fact you must take the utmost care to avoid contact between you and another competitor as contact will cost you incident points that are subtracted from your iRacing license, that’s right dear reader, you have to earn your license and work at being promoted up the ladder towards bigger and more powerful cars, and if you throw away points by even accidentally hitting other cars, the retaining wall, go off course or spin out, your promotion beyond rookie license will be moving further and further away.”

A bit draconian, don't you think? I agree that measures should be erected to prevent rampant cornholing and driving backward, but Kaemmer expects races in the Legends cars at South Boston to be contact-free? Or thinks no one will take a slightly overambitious dive into a corner at Lime Rock and back off after making slight, innocuous contact?

These guys either are dreaming or are watching different races than me if they think coincidental contact doesn't exist in racing.

Ryan Briscoe and Nelson Piquet Jr. would have been fired before May if the iRacing rules applied to the IndyCar Series and F1, respectively.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

OK, my ranting is continuing.

Here's what really burns my ass about the iRacing concept more than anything: iRacing has the sack to call this game a suitable substitution for actual racing.

I just checked iRacing's nice new public Web site, which includes this promotional copy:

"At a fraction of the cost, you'll be able to experience the challenge of global motorsport whenever you choose, and because iRacing.com automatically groups racers of similar skill levels together, everyone has a chance to compete for race wins and season championships. For those who compete in the physical world, it's also a valuable opportunity to hone your racecraft in side-by-side racing, experience that would otherwise require years and a financial commitment that for many is simply out of reach."

From the FAQ's:

"Is this a game?"
"No, iRacing.com is not a video game. It is a subscription-based simulation service for real-world racers and racing enthusiasts, as well as a platform for a new branch of global motorsport — known as internet racing — which is the sport of real-time, online racing."

This is elitist bullshit. iRacing is a video game, regardless of its sim qualities. It is NOT a replacement for or a suitable substitution for real racing. Yes, professional racers can train on it to learn courses and possibly get a very rough feel for the handling characteristics of a car.

But someone sitting at home, playing this game in a chair on a PC with a Logitech wheel, isn't going to get anywhere near the sensation of actually driving one of these machines. iRacing is trying to convince the world otherwise, and it's grating.

If iRacing just stuck to the mantra that it's the highest level of internet motorsport available, that wouldn't bother me. But it's trying to sell this game as a motorsport simulator that provides the same sensations as actual racing at a fraction of the cost.

Also, why can't you get suitable training for racing side-by-side and drive against people of your skill level from around the world through other sims? I do that now in rFactor and have done it in GPL and NR 2003. iRacing is acting like it is creating the world of online sim racing, which has existed for a decade.

This is a game. It appears to be a damn good online sim game, possibly the best ever created, but it's a GAME.

OK, enough ranting, raving and rambling from me. I wish those who are playing iRacing all the best, and I'm still eager for your feedback!

Take care,
PK

[DChaps]

Paul, I absolutely agree with you on the over-hyped marketing of iRacing.

Jacques Villeneuve used Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2 sim to get acquainted with the Spa-Francorchamps circuit before his first race there in 1996, and he claimed it was what helped him get the pole position.

Dale Earnhardt Jr. was actually caught on in race radio communication to then teammate Martin Truex Jr saying something like "let's run this just like Brian Ring", referring to the Brian Ring tracks of NR2003.

There have been real racers using sims for some type of perceived benefit for quite awhile now.

I will mention that Dale Jr. himself (beta tester) was in the iRacing forums recently saying that he thought iRacing was well worth the money and he was going to be a fulltime subscriber, but I would imagine that is pretty easy for him to say.

[Gurantsu]

You certainly get the feeling that Kaemmer thinks the whole racing sim genre started with him. There were many games that really started the ball rolling, Sports Car GT comes to mind, as does the afore mentioned Crammond's games (GP4 still stands out as the most immersive racing game out there in my opinion). Kaemmers games are very good, and deservedly still played, but he had company.

PC racing sims are only slightly more beneficial to actually driving a real race car than a shooter is firing a gun. All interviews I've ever heard from drivers who use them all say that they mainly use them for track recognition (and most of the time the drivers say they still need to relearn the track when they actually get there, as they don't drive the same).

And if I made the same kind of scratch, I'd be a full time subscriber too: to iRacing, Age Of Conan, WW2 Online, World Of Warcraft...

[DChaps]

There are a lot of things that trouble me about iRacing, but this quote from Jens Lindblad's "preview" at SimHQ bothers me the most:...... "You should absolutely never ever drive into other cars on track, in fact you must take the utmost care to avoid contact between you and another competitor as contact will cost you incident points that are subtracted from your iRacing license" ..........
A bit draconian, don't you think? I agree that measures should be erected to prevent rampant cornholing and driving backward, but Kaemmer expects races in the Legends cars at South Boston to be contact-free? Or thinks no one will take a slightly overambitious dive into a corner at Lime Rock and back off after making slight, innocuous contact?

Yeah, there has been quite a bit of feedback and debate on this with the beta testers. I personally think it is too constricting, but it does the job of making you think twice if you are about to try a move that is questionable, or take a turn carrying more speed than normal. However, I will say that Jen's is a little over the top in how he portrays it. Here is the official way these incident points are handled:

2.5.1.
The iRacing.com software monitors all official on-track sessions (not including Testing) and any incidents that occur therein. Each incident type is given a certain value (see list below), and the software automatically tallies each driver’s incidents for each session. (See Table 2.5)

Table 2.5
Light contact with another driver = 0x
wheels off the racing surface = 1x
Loss of control = 2x
Contact with other objects = 3x
Heavy contact with another driver = 4x

2.5.2.
In the event of multiple concurrent incidents, only the most serious (e.g., 3x vs. 1x) is counted.

2.5.3.
The iRacing.com™ software does not attempt to determine fault. Incidents are assessed to all involved drivers individually on a no-fault basis – no matter the circumstances.

Safety Rating
2.6.1.
Safety Rating is a measure of a driver’s overall safety record and is calculated using a formula that takes into account the number of corners a driver passes through and the number and severity of incidents that driver accumulates in the process. These factors are averaged over a set number of laps and updated as each new session is completed.

2.6.2.
Each class of license (in each category, Oval or Road) has a related range of Safety Ratings: 0.00 – 4.99.

2.7.
Corner & Incident Multipliers

2.7.1.
iRacing.com™ places a high priority on safe driving at all times, but races, and other sessions when incidents can directly affect more than one competitor, are more important than Time Trials and single-car Qualifying. Accordingly, Corner & Incident Multipliers are applied when averaging a newly completed session into a driver’s Safety Rating.

2.7.2.
Current Corner & Incident Multipliers are: (See Table 2.7)

Table 2.7
Session Type, Sim Session, Weight
Practice - Lone Practice - 0.0
Practice - Open Practice - 0.0
Qualify - Lone Qualifying (Oval) - 0.35
Qualify - Open Qualifying (Road) - 0.5
Time Trial - Time Trial - 0.35
Race - Warm Up - 0.5
Race - Race - 1

[DChaps]

The GP2 2005-2006 Series mod is now available for rfactor with the following features:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=321338

http://www.virtualr.net/gp2-series-2006-released/

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... ies%202006

New mod based on real GP2 series (you need rFactor game 1.250 or higher to work)
25 cars of 2005 season (Helmet, suit and car)
26 cars of 2006 season (Helmet, suit and car)
40 Historical F1 famous livery cars (Helmet, suit and car)
20 Extra liveries cars (Helmet, suit and car)
Up to date specific 1.250 optimisations (tires wear curves, pitmenu, and so on)
FFB upgrades to choose your preferred steering force, see following paragraph to have best settings of FFB
RealFeel plugin compatibility, see following paragraph to have best settings of RealFeel
Sensible damage
Selectable GP2 Shape helmet skins for the player (great for online races) (compliant with the F3 Euro 2007 by Gentlemen-Racers.org and Lo^ and Enduracers mods)
Edit: A patch for the sound problem has been added below!

[Gurantsu]

The GP2 2005-2006 Series mod is now available for rfactor with the following features:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=321338

http://www.virtualr.net/gp2-series-2006-released/

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... ies%202006

New mod based on real GP2 series (you need rFactor game 1.250 or higher to work)
25 cars of 2005 season (Helmet, suit and car)
26 cars of 2006 season (Helmet, suit and car)
40 Historical F1 famous livery cars (Helmet, suit and car)
20 Extra liveries cars (Helmet, suit and car)
Up to date specific 1.250 optimisations (tires wear curves, pitmenu, and so on)
FFB upgrades to choose your preferred steering force, see following paragraph to have best settings of FFB
RealFeel plugin compatibility, see following paragraph to have best settings of RealFeel
Sensible damage
Selectable GP2 Shape helmet skins for the player (great for online races) (compliant with the F3 Euro 2007 by Gentlemen-Racers.org and Lo^ and Enduracers mods)
Edit: A patch for the sound problem has been added below!

Wow, very well done mod. The cars are fun to drive and won't stick like glue. Having all of the liveries is cool, I took Damon Hill's Jordan (I always liked that car.) Also, the interface updates are awesome! I wonder if they'll stay when you pick another class of car?

The sound is a bit low and needs the patch, unfortunately the server for them is down.

We leave tomorrow for vacation down the shore for a week, I won't be able to try these out with you guys for a while.

[pk500]

Ah, very eager to try the GP2 mod! An updated version of the well-regarded Formula Nippon mod also is available for rFactor.

Between GP2, IndyCar, Champ Car and Formula Nippon mods, rFactor is stuffed to the gills with quality, high-powered open-wheel mods outside of F1. Very cool.

Take care,
PK