MLB Season discussion

drbaseball · Post by **drbaseball** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:55 pm

macsomjrr wrote:
drbaseball wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:The umps whole reaction to the play was one of he didnt touch the plate, and no call would be made until the runner scurried back and touched the plate, safe, or the catcher got the ball and tagged the runner out, out.

It looked like the ump was doing that until the end where I guess he thought to himself, well, it's such a late game, and I got to get some sleep, so f*** it, he's safe.

added : another thing I was thinking, barret should have tried to sell it to the ump that he never touched the plate. Instead of casually getting the ball, he should have rushed it and tagged Halladay out, maybe that could have worked. But with the crowd going wild, I think the ump was affected.

Think if there was an abandonment play? Where there's no call, and the runner goes back to the dugout, then he's automatically out. Think the chaos that would have caused. Maybe that's what the ump was trying to avoid, getting his ass beaten by making the right call.
These are my thoughts exactly. And I don't see how replay would have helped?
Ump: "You know I'm not sure if he tagged the plate or not, maybe I should call up stairs and have the special replay umpire check for me"

Special Upstairs Replay Ump: "Looks like he didn't tag and then Barrett recovered the ball and tagged him, he's OUT!"

Ump: "Thanks special replay ump. Hey everybody at Coors field he is OUT!"

Me: "Hell yeah! Go Barrett! Go Barrett! Go Barrett!"

How would instant replay not have helped in this situation? I will say that the home-run that bounced back in probably would've been called a HR as well though meaning Rockies win anyway. Seriously just give each manager two chances too have a play reviewed. Where is the harm in that?

The Ump called Holliday safe BEFORE Barrett tagged him. Yes, the video review would show that Holliday was tagged, but part of the reason Barrett had the opportunity to make the tag is because Holliday was making no effort to get to the plate. Why no effort? Because he has been called safe.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:58 pm

The ump called him safe a split second before Barrett tagged him. It's safe to assume Holliday wasn't planning on making any attempt to touch the plate.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:59 pm

drbaseball wrote: The Ump called Holliday safe BEFORE Barrett tagged him. Yes, the video review would show that Holliday was tagged, but part of the reason Barrett had the opportunity to make the tag is because Holliday was making no effort to get to the plate. Why no effort? Because he has been called safe.

But then Bud Black throws out his giant red replay flag and the play gets reversed with Barrett tagging Holliday after his dynamo head first slide. Sure Hoffman would've given up six more hits and we still would've lost the game but at least they would have gotten that play right.

drbaseball · Post by **drbaseball** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:09 pm

Sully wrote:The ump called him safe a split second before Barrett tagged him. It's safe to assume Holliday wasn't planning on making any attempt to touch the plate.

Agreed. But you can't make that assumption for every situation in which you would want to use replay for this kind of call. As such, even if MLB began using replay I seriously doubt this kind of play would ever be reviewable. Assuming that is the case (and it is my assumption), then do we want to use a non reviewable play to make the case for baseball needing replay?

This is like trying to review something in football based on when the whistle blew and play was stopped. Those kinds of calls aren't reviewable because who is to say what would have happened if the whistle had never blown? Again, who is to say what would or would not have happened if the ump had not called Holliday safe. Once the ump made the call, no matter how close it was to the tag, the play was over. Holliday may not have been safe per touching home plate, but he was NEVER out. The tag came AFTER the play was over.

BTW, I am a Giants fan and couldn't care less about either team. I am interested in the debate regarding replay, however.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:18 pm

Well, then what is reviewable? By your logic, and I'm not saying I disagree with it, the ball Atkins hit wouldn't be reviewable because they ruled it wasn't a homerun.

Sure, it's easy to say the ump shouldn't have made a call on the play. However, in football, players are taught to keep playing until they hear a whistle because it's possible that a ref's call can be reversed. Why can't this be the case in baseball? Ok, the ump called him out, but Barrett went through with tagging Holliday anyway because there's a possibility it could be overturned.

Honestly, instant replay in baseball would be too tricky. Take a fair/foul call into consideration. Your player chalks one, it's ruled foul, but the play is supposed to continue to play out until the runner reaches 3rd?

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:39 pm

What a game that was last night. As maybe the only DSP'er to attend the game last night, that was the most exciting game of baseball, I've ever seen. It was a constant roller coaster ride.

We start out the game hitting Peavy hard.

Then Gonzalez in the 3rd hits his grand slam. The crowd just fell silent.

Bottom of the 3rd Helton answer right back.

Catching up in the 5th then going ahead in the 6th. Then in the 8th SD ties it up. We were mowed down by the SD relief staff and that got the crowd quiet.

Top of th 13th Hairston goes yard for the 2 run homer. The SD dugout went nuts and the Coors field crowd just fell silent.

Bottom of the 13th was just crazy. Matsui brought life into the crowd with his lead off double. Tulo doubls scoring Matuis. Holliday triples scoring Tulo. They walk Helton and Caroll gets the sac fly RBI.

What a Night. That was the loudest most instense, I've ever seen Coors field. From the M-V-P chant for Holliday, to the two controversial calls, to the up and down game. The game had it all, one of the most exciting games in baseball...in the past decade. Sure the Red Sox 4 game back might have been the best series, but this one game might be one of the best baseball has ever seen.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:47 pm

drbaseball wrote:
macsomjrr wrote:
drbaseball wrote: These are my thoughts exactly. And I don't see how replay would have helped?
Ump: "You know I'm not sure if he tagged the plate or not, maybe I should call up stairs and have the special replay umpire check for me"

Special Upstairs Replay Ump: "Looks like he didn't tag and then Barrett recovered the ball and tagged him, he's OUT!"

Ump: "Thanks special replay ump. Hey everybody at Coors field he is OUT!"

Me: "Hell yeah! Go Barrett! Go Barrett! Go Barrett!"

How would instant replay not have helped in this situation? I will say that the home-run that bounced back in probably would've been called a HR as well though meaning Rockies win anyway. Seriously just give each manager two chances too have a play reviewed. Where is the harm in that?
The Ump called Holliday safe BEFORE Barrett tagged him. Yes, the video review would show that Holliday was tagged, but part of the reason Barrett had the opportunity to make the tag is because Holliday was making no effort to get to the plate. Why no effort? Because he has been called safe.

Actually before the safe call, he was making no effort to touch the plate. I think the reason why is because he hit his chin hard and was sort of knocked out. But maybe that sold it to the ump. Maybe the ump was thinking, well, from my view, I can't really tell if he touched the plate or not, but since he's acting like he did and is making no effort to re-touch it, then he's probably safe.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:04 pm

Here's my view. It doesn't matter if Holliday touched the plate or not. The catcher cannot block the plate unless he has possession of the ball. Otherwise, it is ruled obstruction. So he didn't. Therefore the umpire made the correct call, the runner was safe due to obstruction. It didn't matter if Holliday made it to the plate or not. That's why the umpire did not make the call immediately. He correctly waited to see if the catcher had possession of the ball. When he saw that the ball was loose, and the catcher attempted to tag the runner, he gave the signal for Safe. I think the Ump did the right thing.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:39 pm

10spro wrote:Here's my view. It doesn't matter if Holliday touched the plate or not. The catcher cannot block the plate unless he has possession of the ball. Otherwise, it is ruled obstruction. So he didn't. Therefore the umpire made the correct call, the runner was safe due to obstruction. It didn't matter if Holliday made it to the plate or not. That's why the umpire did not make the call immediately. He correctly waited to see if the catcher had possession of the ball. When he saw that the ball was loose, and the catcher attempted to tag the runner, he gave the signal for Safe. I think the Ump did the right thing.

No man, I don't buy that because Ump's have never enforced obstruction for the last 30 years (ie Mike Soscia). I think if you even look at the record books, obstruction has never been called at a play at the plate for the last 10 years. I think the ump blew the call or he saw Hallady's little finger touch home or something. Anyway, maybe he was thinking of a make up call for the HR the umps blew.

Also, if he did call obstruction, he would have pointed to the catcher and waved safe immediately.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:56 pm

My view....bad call...end of story.

I didnt care who won...great game and this coming from a football fan...but s*** call.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:45 pm

As a Seahawks fan I know all about bad calls! (and no I don't think it cost them the Super Bowl, they should have been able to shake it off instead they fell apart).

Still, no way would I ever want to see instant replay in baseball.

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:44 am

GO TRI-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-IBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going tonight! Man, I can't wait!!!

Wilk5280 · Post by **Wilk5280** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:03 pm

Can the Rocks sweep????????

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:36 pm

PRBoom wrote:Can the Rocks sweep????????

They are white hot.

johnvon314 · Post by **johnvon314** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:58 pm

Very nice gesture by the Colorado Rockies to give a full playoff share to the pregnant widow of the minor league first base coach (Mike Coolbaugh)that was killed by a line drive earlier this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3049388

John

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:25 pm

Yeah, the Rockies are playing sound baseball. Japan is going crazy over Kaz Matsui. Indians are playing the Yankees tough and ARod is hitless.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:56 am

PRBoom wrote:Can the Rocks sweep????????

Man I really wanted them to do will initially but I keep finding myself yelling at Holliday every time he comes up to bat. Hope his chin falls off:)

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:37 am

lexbur wrote:GO TRI-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-IBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going tonight! Man, I can't wait!!!

I hope you had fun last night. The fun stops for you tonight!

Both Wang and CC were walking tightropes early on. Gotta tip your hat to CC for battling out of that bases loaded jam. It got away from the the Yanks in the bottom of that inning, unfortunately.

I've forgotten how great Cleveland fans are. That place was rocking last night.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:51 pm

The high spending Yankees are a game away from being ousted in the playoffs. How sweet. Hard to believe the incredible season that A-Rod had, is totally equalled by his inefectiveness in the playoffs. If they're swept, you can bet that you've seen the last of #13 in a stripe uniform. On the other hand only one team has been able to come back from 0-2 deficit in a series.

What's up with the bugs?

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:18 am

10spro wrote:
What's up with the bugs?

That was pretty horrendous. The worst is when they were showing the close up shots of Chamberlains neck with the heterogeneous mixture of bug spray, bugs and buckets of sweat. I knew my hidef TV would be good for something!

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:21 am

10spro wrote:The high spending Yankees are a game away from being ousted in the playoffs. How sweet. Hard to believe the incredible season that A-Rod had, is totally equalled by his inefectiveness in the playoffs. If they're swept, you can bet that you've seen the last of #13 in a stripe uniform. On the other hand only one team has been able to come back from 0-2 deficit in a series.

What's up with the bugs?

Actually, The Red Sox came back on the A's from a 2-0 hole and the Yankees also came back against the A's when Jeter made that play to throw out the other Giambi at the plate.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:39 am

Put a X across Marion Jones. BALCO.

Barry Bonds.......can you hear the footsteps, you're next.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:11 am

10spro wrote:The high spending Yankees are a game away from being ousted in the playoffs. How sweet. Hard to believe the incredible season that A-Rod had, is totally equalled by his inefectiveness in the playoffs.

Good grief, it's 2 games!!! An OPS of 1000 during the regular season doesn't insulate you from a 1-10 in 3 playoff games. This s*** happens.

It's widely known that 5 game series are a crap shoot, but so many people draw the most broad conclusion from them. How many MVP-caliber players have 3-4 game stretches during the regular season where they go 1-13? It happens a dozen times every season. But if it happens during October (against better pitching, mind you) we have to draw all sorts of conclusions about their character as human beings and their ability to be "big game" players.

That was wrong when Ted Williams was struggling through his post-season games, and it's wrong now.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:38 am

I think 23 career post-season games is a pretty indication and A-Rod is a .238 hitter with 2 HR and 20 strikeouts. I certainly wouldn't pass judgment on his character, but have no problem drawing the conclusion that he isn't a big game player.

If we celebrate big game players like Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, and Curt Schilling then it's fair to look at the performance of poor performers, especially after a track record of 23 games.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:43 am

Leebo33 wrote:I think 23 career post-season games is a pretty indication and A-Rod is a .238 hitter with 2 HR and 20 strikeouts. I certainly wouldn't pass judgment on his character, but have no problem drawing the conclusion that he isn't a big game player.

If we celebrate big game players like Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, and Curt Schilling then it's fair to look at the performance of poor performers, especially after a track record of 23 games.

I couldn't disagree more. But hey, that's sports.