OT: Vick Indicted

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:22 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
pk500 wrote:Second, CFL GM's apparently were upset by the signing of Ricky Williams because he was a convict, according to ESPN.com.
When did Ricky do any jail time? He's not a convict, he's a pothead. There is a huge difference.

You're right: Ricky never was convicted of a crime. My mistake.

But you don't have to do jail time to be a convict. A convict is a person who is convicted of a crime or someone who is convicted and does time.

Still, if the CFL GM's had misgivings over a guy who just smoked weed, what the hell will they think of a guy who executed dogs?

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:42 pm

XXXIV wrote:I dont know if hes the MOST overrated..they did get to an NFC championship game once...but I agree he is overrated.

It's not that he didn't have a lot of talent or show flashes of being a good QB. But considering how much of a star he was (weird to say that in past tense) compared to his actual performance, he seemed way overrated. No other starting QB got a pass for not being much of a passer the way Vick did. His speed certainly was a huge asset, but in the NFL at the end of the day, you have to be able to throw the ball accurately. He could never do that consistently. His W-L record was pretty good but that's a pretty inaccurate measurement of a QB's ability (see Grossman, Rex).

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:11 pm

I would severely doubt him being signed by a CFL team. There was a decent amount of controversy about him being signed here (as PK said) and that was just for being caught smoking weed. Canada is a lot more liberal and free about people smoking weed, and what kind of person one who smokes weed is, so I was kind of surprised that there was much controversy at all.

Signing a guy who apparently killed dogs is something that won't be defendable by even the best PR/marketing firm.

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:05 am

Falcon fans are donating their Vick jerseys to the Atlanta Humane Society:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football ... 3916_x.htm

That's awesome.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:05 pm

Airdog wrote: Signing a guy who apparently killed dogs is something that won't be defendable by even the best PR/marketing firm.

He needs to hire the same marketing firm that still finds work for Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist. Or perhaps some other felons from the NFL like Deion Sanders (assault and battery), Cornelius Bennett (rapist), Andre Rison (aggravated assault), Leonard Little (manslaughter), etc...

Ray Lewis avoided those murder charges and got to continue playing in the NFL, raking in tons of endorsements in the meantime w/o any concern that he probably had something to do with killing those two men in Atlanta, but he had better lawyers and more money to defend himself than say, Rae Carruth.

I own two dogs, have loved animals all of my life, and there's no way you can even begin to defend Vick on the disgusting things he's about to admit to in his plea agreement, but it seems that he would have gotten off easier and might still have a job in the NFL if he would have beaten up, strangled and/or raped a human being instead of Fido.

Time will make people forget about Vick's past. In a few years, he'll be right back and some desperate team will sign him and spin it to the public that he's done his time, is a changed man, everyone should get a second chance, etc...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:19 pm

Agreed, Jon.

America is the most forgiving nation on Earth, especially when it comes to celebrities. We worship our sports and entertainment heroes with almost total blindness to their flaws, fueled by ubiquitous, fawning media coverage.

Bottom line: Vick will play again in the NFL if he's allowed. Time heals wounds to perception.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:54 pm

I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and heard a black reporter from Atlanta say the city is divided racially on this issue. I could understand before the plea, but after Vick admitting guilt.......I don't get it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:17 pm

JackDog wrote:I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and heard a black reporter from Atlanta say the city is divided racially on this issue. I could understand before the plea, but after Vick admitting guilt.......I don't get it.

Come on, Jackdiggity: It was a setup, right? Ron Mexico is another victim of race in our society. This never would have happened if Peyton Manning or Tom Brady was running a dogfighting ring.

P.S.: Hope all is cool with you, Carol and Dom.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:02 pm

pk500 wrote:
JackDog wrote:I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and heard a black reporter from Atlanta say the city is divided racially on this issue. I could understand before the plea, but after Vick admitting guilt.......I don't get it.
Come on, Jackdiggity: It was a setup, right? Ron Mexico is another victim of race in our society. This never would have happened if Peyton Manning or Tom Brady was running a dogfighting ring.

P.S.: Hope all is cool with you, Carol and Dom.

Take care,
PK

I'll give you a call Wed night brother.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:57 pm

pk500 wrote:Agreed, Jon.

America is the most forgiving nation on Earth, especially when it comes to celebrities. We worship our sports and entertainment heroes with almost total blindness to their flaws, fueled by ubiquitous, fawning media coverage.

Bottom line: Vick will play again in the NFL if he's allowed. Time heals wounds to perception.

Take care,
PK

I would have agreed with this unconditionally if the allegations were still just about running the fighting ring. But as long as the drowning dogs thing is out there, I have a hard time believing any owner short of Al Davis would take the PR hit. It's tough to overcome drowning puppies. It's the bus full of nuns of the marketing world

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:15 pm

Rob:

A lot depends on Ron Mexico's post-jail actions. If he hires a superb PR team that portrays him as incredibly repentant, then he has a chance. Plus if he becomes a poster boy for the Feds' desire to eradicate dogfighting through PSA's and public appearances, that will help, too.

I don't think we'll see "Mr Vick's Neighborhood" on PBS anytime soon, but Americans are incredibly forgiving. Stupidly so, in this case, but we worship our celebs like few other nations on Earth.

Entire networks are based upon the cult of celebrity. Take ESPN, for instance. Think Vick is Who's Now?

Take care,
PK

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:58 pm

RobVarak wrote: It's tough to overcome drowning puppies.

It's not like he was drowning golden retriever puppies, or Rin Tin Tin, Lassie or Toto. They were breeding and killing Cujo in them there backwoods.

Heck, dog's are considered food in some parts of the world, maybe he'll get some marketing deals in the far East.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:21 pm

He'll be back in the NFL, I think the media is going overboard on the NFL banning him for life.

As for race, my first inclination was that the media was maybe going overboard with this. I thought well if it was Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, would they be going thru all this scrutiny like Vick is? But then when more and more of the story came out and how serious it really was, the race angle had to be dropped.

But what a true fall for this guy. The NFL was basically his league to have. It's almost like if MJ in 1988 did something stupid like this. That would have wiped away a decade of basketball with MJ being the icon of not just the NBA but professional sports. This is sort of on the same level.

The worst part is what if one of these dogs escaped and attacked some innocent bystander walking down the street. He's lucky something like that didn't happen or he'd be on trail for murder.

I don't know what's up with him or his brother. I don't know why Vick with all the money and fame he had wanted to do this. I hope it wasn't so he could say he was keeping it real and bullshit like that.

Maybe he'll learn like Ray Lewis learned that there's no need to be a thug when you've 'made it'.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:27 pm

Inuyasha wrote:He'll be back in the NFL, I think the media is going overboard on the NFL banning him for life.

But what a true fall for this guy. The NFL was basically his league to have. It's almost like if MJ in 1988 did something stupid like this. That would have wiped away a decade of basketball with MJ being the icon of not just the NBA but professional sports. This is sort of on the same level.

I also think he'll be in the NFL again and I suspect his sentence might be 12-18 months and some serious PR work to get him back in good graces with the NFL and fans.

Just a question because i'm just repeating what i've read in the past. Wasn't MJ suspected of gambling while playing for the Bulls?

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:30 pm

Rodster wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:He'll be back in the NFL, I think the media is going overboard on the NFL banning him for life.

But what a true fall for this guy. The NFL was basically his league to have. It's almost like if MJ in 1988 did something stupid like this. That would have wiped away a decade of basketball with MJ being the icon of not just the NBA but professional sports. This is sort of on the same level.
I also think he'll be in the NFL again and I suspect his sentence might be 12-18 months and some serious PR work to get him back in good graces with the NFL and fans.

Just a question because i'm just repeating what i've read in the past. Wasn't MJ suspected of gambling while playing for the Bulls?

Well that was the rumor. The story is the MJ's first 'retirement' was really a hush hush ban Stern layed on him for gambling. If he had gone public with something like that, it wouldn't have only ended MJ's career, but the whole NBA would have folded. Then there was another story that the reason why MJ's dad was killed was because he owed money to some Mafia types. But that wasn't fact when they caught the 2 kids who did the murder. They were just petty thieves who robbed Jordan Sr. at a rest stop for his Bulls Championship Ring he got from his son.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:32 pm

What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:33 pm

jondiehl wrote:
Airdog wrote: Signing a guy who apparently killed dogs is something that won't be defendable by even the best PR/marketing firm.

I was referring specifically to the possibility of him playing in the CFL during a possible NFL ban. I'm sure he'll find work playing football somewhere after the ban, but it's difficult to think that another pro football league would employ him in the meantime.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:34 pm

sportdan30 wrote:What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

Someone will, look at Kobe. He was charged with Rape but now his jersey is top selling. If Jamarus Russell is a bust, Al Davis will be first in line to sign him.

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:36 pm

sportdan30 wrote:What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

A greedy one, if they could crunch the numbers to where a reduced Vick salary would outweigh the revenue from lost fans and put a winning/profitable team on the field.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:36 pm

sportdan30 wrote:What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

A desperate owner type like Al Davis who just wants to win. By the time an owner has to decide to take Vick back his PR machine will be in full gear to try and repair his image with the league and fans.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
sportdan30 wrote:What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

Someone will, look at Kobe. He was charged with Rape but now his jersey is top selling. If Jamarus Russell is a bust, Al Davis will be first in line to sign him.

Kobe wasn't guilty of rape though. That case was thrown out after the accuser wouldn't testify because there were 3 different tadpoles swimming around in that lake.

I would honestly be shocked if Vick ever plays another down in the NFL. You guys have to keep in mind that he is going to jail. He will be in jail for at least a year. After he gets out of jail he will have to find out what the NFL's disciplinary action is. You really think Goodell is going to let him serve his suspension sitting in jail? If Pacman Jones received a 1-year suspension Vick will get at least 2. You really think that in 3 years anyone is going to take a chance on a 30-year-old ex-con who killed dogs, hasn't played in 3 years, and is 3 years slower? No way in hell.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:48 pm

Inuyasha wrote: It's almost like if MJ in 1988 did something stupid like this. That would have wiped away a decade of basketball with MJ being the icon of not just the NBA but professional sports. This is sort of on the same level.

Wow. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Vick was an exciting player to watch, but he's not the best NFL player ever. MJ is the best player in NBA history (or at least that can be debated). Vick was a decent QB, but even before the injuries when he was at his peak, he wasn't considered the best QB in the NFL at the time, much less the best ever like a MJ is to basketball.

The NBA is a team sport, but it's very much an individual sport as well. The NFL is complete different that way, in that people tend to root for the jersey, not the guy in the jersey. Names change on the jersey, players come and go, and only the truely great one's are remembered (and Vick was not, nor was he going to be).

Look at Jerry Rice, probably the best WR ever and one of the best players of all time. If he did something like Vick did when he was an icon with the Niner's, yes it would have been a huge deal but the Niner's would still have been a great team, probably would have won many championships and the NFL would have been as popular as ever.

If MJ does something like that, then yes, the NBA loses an icon for an entire decade, the face of the NBA, and the Bulls don't win those multiple championships.

The NFL will be just fine w/o Michael Vick.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:52 pm

ScoopBrady wrote: I would honestly be shocked if Vick ever plays another down in the NFL. You guys have to keep in mind that he is going to jail.

His sentence hasn't been determined yet. The prosecutors are asking for 18 months, but the judge could give him zero time and just probation and a still fine.

Jamal Lewis did time for 4 months a few summer's ago (drug dealing wasn't it?), and that didn't stop him from carrying the rock the very next fall.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:04 pm

sportdan30 wrote:What rightful owner would take a chance on him and face the backlash from fans, media, along with the result of losing season ticket holders?

You're gauging that backlash based on the current outrage. Two years away from the game and the spotlight, combined with great PR and an earnest desire for repentance, will soothe that outrage considerably.

People won't forget, but they'll forgive. Vick is a lionized athletic hero -- that's gold in America.

If anything, Vick could be even more of a fan and ratings' draw for some after his prison sentence. People will wonder if his time behind bars will have dulled his skills and also wonder if he will have lost any of his competitive edge due to the humility that he hopefully gains from this experience. There's absolutely no question that Vick's return to an NFL field would be the highest-rated NFL regular-season game of that season. No doubt in my mind.

So much for the outrage.

People will gawk at Vick on an NFL field in 2009 or 2010 like they do when they slow down to see a fender-bender. People watched Tyson fight after he served time for rape, didn't they?

Hell, I'll watch just to see if Vick has a noticeable limp when scrambling due to the acupuncture up the dirt chute he's going to get in the Fed's big house.

Take care,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:07 pm

jondiehl wrote:His sentence hasn't been determined yet. The prosecutors are asking for 18 months, but the judge could give him zero time and just probation and a still fine.

Not when he was the last to cop a plea. He will get more than the others.

jondiehl wrote:Jamal Lewis did time for 4 months a few summer's ago (drug dealing wasn't it?), and that didn't stop him from carrying the rock the very next fall.

Different commissioner.