grtwhtsk wrote:If he can walk, he will play until he gets that record. Maybe they can stop him with one of these investigations that he is under.
This whole thing disgusts me. White, black, purple, I don't care. If you cheat, you need to pay the consequences. Investigate these guys, and take down the guilty ones. Stick asteriks next to all their numbers and ban them from the game. No Hall of Fame for any of these guys. Let their numbers rot.
I know no sportswriter will vote Palmeiro into the Hall for sure. That also probably goes for McGwire too. Bonds didn't have many friends in the sportswriting community before '98, and now he has fewer. So no to him too.
But this could change 15 years or so after Bonds' retirement, because the veteran's committee may vote him in.
Although there's always been an element of popularity contest in the HoF voting, it's still largely based on merit.
Palmeiro is a borderline case for the Hall. His career numbers stack up well but he was never recognized as the greatest while he played.
McGwire has better Black Ink credentials. His career numbers were diminished a bit by injury. He lost virtually all of his age 29 & 30 seasons, and fell off quickly after his two 60+ HR years. I think Mac will get into the Hall eventually.
Bonds is one of the top ten players of all-time. There's no way he's kept out unless he's on some sort of commissioner's ban a la Pete Rose.
sfz_T-car wrote:Bonds is one of the top ten players of all-time. There's no way he's kept out unless he's on some sort of commissioner's ban a la Pete Rose.
I agree with that...They all hated Eddie Murray and he got in first ballot.
Bonds was going to be the only 500/500 guy in history before his head blew up.
JRod wrote:Problem is the roids. To acknowledge Bonds by giving him the HOF nod, is validating his steroid use.
If you turn on your TV and see him at the plate, does this not mean it has been validated?
It's not up the voters to determine the legitimacy of his records. If the league wants him out of baseball, they can ban him. Until that happens, the voters should stick to what they see in the books. Bonds should obviously be a unanimous first ballot choice, but even guys like Tom Seaver and Babe Ruth couldn't pull that off because of the morons who are voters. So you never know what will happen...
"Whatever, I don't know why you even play yourself to that degree,
you laugh at me?" - Del
If Gaylord Perry is in the Hall, Bonds should be too. I don't think you can retroactively go back and punish everyone. You'd almost have to eliminate all hitting records from the past 10-20 years. What's done is done, as far as I'm concerned.
And I think the "disgrace to the human race" stuff is WAY overboard. Bonds is a jerk, as others have said, but personality-wise he isn't much worse than many other great athletes (or artists or politicians etc etc). We have celebrated a lot of pricks through history, it's just that time tends to smooth out the rough spots if they accomplished great things. Even Pete Rose, one of the biggest assholes to play the game, has managed to become a sympathetic figure to many. I dislike someone like Jose Canseco much more than Bonds.
Hard to imagine any player is juiced up this year, after all the political pressure.
There might be other BALCOs but again, does any player or chemist mess around when the heat is on? Or will they more likely wait a few years at least before attempting to cheat again?
The problem that baseball is having is that they can't vigorously go after roid use because of the implications. They would have to admit that they were silent during the summer of McGwire-Sosa. Managers like LaRussa would go down. Entire ball clubs could be targeted from the owners to the physios. The entire structure of professional baseball would probably fall under a black cloud if the truth was found out.
Baseball knows that and that's why the investigation into Bonds is mostly a sham. The only way the roid users are outed is if the other shoe drops. Someone comes forth with conclusive evidence that McGwire was using steriods. That won't happen.
Kazuya wrote:
If you turn on your TV and see him at the plate, does this not mean it has been validated?
Not validated per se. The only reason he is playing today is because they have not yet been able to pin a positive result from a drug test on him.
Kazuya wrote:
If the league wants him out of baseball, they can ban him.
Not without 100% proof he used steroids and the only LEGAL way to do that is to have him present TWO samples that turn positive for a banned substance. Otherwise, they can't touch Bonds and they know it....
wco81 wrote:
There might be other BALCOs but again, does any player or chemist mess around when the heat is on? Or will they more likely wait a few years at least before attempting to cheat again?
If the steroid use in baseball is anything like it was/is in Track and Field, the players will wait to find an undetectable drug they can use and use it until they find out that MLB can detect it and test for it. The sad thing about sports these days is that the best trainer for some elite athletes is the pharmacist....
wco81 wrote:
Hard to imagine any player is juiced up this year, after all the political pressure.
There might be other BALCOs but again, does any player or chemist mess around when the heat is on? Or will they more likely wait a few years at least before attempting to cheat again?
I strongly disagree. I think that those who are inclined and able to use HGH or other undetectable agents are absolutely going to continue to use. The collapses of Giambi and Palmeiro will certainly scare the bejeezus out of anyone thinking about quitting.
XBL Gamertag: RobVarak
"Ok I'm an elitist, but I have a healthy respect for people who don't measure up." --Aaron Sorkin
Kazuya wrote:
If you turn on your TV and see him at the plate, does this not mean it has been validated?
Not validated per se. The only reason he is playing today is because they have not yet been able to pin a positive result from a drug test on him.
Coincidentally, that's the reason why *everyone* is still playing when you get down to it. However, even if they do he will serve his penalty and then be back on the field. The point is, if I see him on my TV screen, he has been validated by baseball. If he killed a guy, he wouldn't be on my screen. If he bet on baseball, he wouldn't be on my screen. He said he used some cream, and he's still on my screen. The only way I could interpret that if I was a Hall of Fame voter is that he is eligible to go in. It's not up to the voters to decide on other factors, because they could go crazy with that kind of power.
DivotMaker wrote:
Kazuya wrote:
If the league wants him out of baseball, they can ban him.
Not without 100% proof he used steroids and the only LEGAL way to do that is to have him present TWO samples that turn positive for a banned substance. Otherwise, they can't touch Bonds and they know it....
Well, it is *their* league, isn't it? If they don't have it in place with the Players Association that they can ban whoever they want for whatever reason, that's their own fault now isn't it?
"Whatever, I don't know why you even play yourself to that degree,
you laugh at me?" - Del
I blame baseball. The sport did not care. The fact that Andro was legal the year of the HR chase is all I need to know. It was splitting hairs to say that Andro was not a steroid - and at the time the blame fell on the people who reported it and not the man using it.
As for Bonds, I don't think he even hits the top five of my list of all time baseball assholes. At least the drugs Bonds took made him a better player. Keith Hernandez, for instance, coked his way out of St Louis and then apologized to the city of New York. He should have apologized to his teammates and coaches on the Cardinals. I'll take Bonds over a touchhole like Keith Hernandez any day of the week. In fact, I could probably find five bigger assholes than Bonds just on the 86 Mets.
kevinpars wrote:I blame baseball. The sport did not care. The fact that Andro was legal the year of the HR chase is all I need to know. It was splitting hairs to say that Andro was not a steroid - and at the time the blame fell on the people who reported it and not the man using it.
Great point. Only sport out there where andro was legal. The players werent the only cheaters. Bud Selig and Donal Fehr cheated right along with them...MMMM$$$$$$$$MMMMMMM
I go back to the media too. Everytime Andro was brought up...Assholes like Joe Buck would give us some bullshit about medicinal purposes.
Ya everyone is to blame for the mess. The mlb, the fans, etc... I remember those Oakland teams with Canseco virtually bragging about the s*** they were pumping into their bodies but nobody cared back then, it was good entertainment.
Bonds definately belongs in the hall. Before his steroid years, he was a for sure 1st ballot hall of famer. As for Ty Cobb, he like bonds was a big ahole racist but cobb, unlike bonds, never cheated.
There is a very distinct and, to me anyway, obvious difference between cheating by scuffing, corking, gamesmanship etc., and using the types of performance enhancers that Bonds and Giambi have admitted using.
Loading up a baseball or corking a bat is against the laws of baseball but not proscribed by any state or federal criminal code. Posssession of HGH and the high-end doping agents without a valid prescription is illegal. Mere possession of some of the agents which have been allegedly used by others is illegal.
Cheating by scuffing a baseball is a baseball problem. If MLB looked the other way and pitchers could get away with it, there would be a substantial impact on the game but minimal impact on the health of the players. Pitchers could use or not use the spitter as they wished with no meaningful damage. Moreover, there would be little if any impact on the health of society in general if the use of spitters became widespread in the amateur ranks and by young people.
Contrast that with the use of HGH, or even more starkly with the crazy $hit that Bonds has allegedly used. This s*** is flat-out dangerous and it makes demands on the health of the user. Unlike the spitter or corking, in order to keep up with the users, other players would have to place their own health in jeoapardy and break the law in doing so. There are already startling and scary stats about the infiltration of doping into youth sports.
I'm sorry, but I think anyone who fails to see a distinction between these categories is either dumb or intellectually dishonest.
XBL Gamertag: RobVarak
"Ok I'm an elitist, but I have a healthy respect for people who don't measure up." --Aaron Sorkin
sfz_T-car wrote:Giambi's OPS is over 1000 this season. That's pretty solid production for a 35 year old who looked to be washed up two years ago.
SF, I'm not sure if you were supporting or refuting my point. Giambi collapsed when his admission became public and he shrunk a bit. Since about mid-season of last year both his size and production have rebounded nicely.
When I referred to his collapse, I was discussing his shrinking size and health problems which coincided with his near demotion to AAA and miserable performance.
XBL Gamertag: RobVarak
"Ok I'm an elitist, but I have a healthy respect for people who don't measure up." --Aaron Sorkin
Giambi had a lot of things going on during 2004. Weaning off the juice was only part of his problems.
Assuming he's clean today, his comeback over the past year is a nice story. At this poing last season, he was nowhere. He was hitting in the .230 range with no power. But he kicked it into gear in June 2005 and has kept it up ever since. While he hasn't been performing at his steroid/MVP peak, he's providing solid production.
I still don't know if I'm supporting or refuting RobV's original point, but it's an impressive comeback that I for one didn't think he had in him.
