And so it begins with EA and cutting next gen features

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:40 am

DivotMaker wrote:Quick question....is EA holding a gun to your head making you purchase the game?

I believe the term for this is called exclusive license.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:44 am

Brando,
You can't compare NFl 2k and Madden. Like James said, they are not writing and entire new game with the next generation contary to what the press whores tell us. NFL 2k was a new game with limited features. Madden, NCAA Tiger all have taken steps back when they move a platform up. NCAA had a lot of great features in the PSX like tournament structure. That was never to be found on the PS2.

Here's the problem with the next generation consoles. The technology is greatly out distancing itself from the talent. In a next generation console there is no way the game should ship with 3 courses. Hell last night I played an arcade version of Tiger for 2005 that had 12 courses in it. My other problem is that they dont' seem to support course downloads other then on th e PC. It would be great 6 weeks after the game is released they put out 12 of their "classic" courses on a $20 add-on. I would buy that.

I just don't think game producers have any great vision for the consoles and their games. I think the designers do but they arent' coporate. And you don't need to take risks in a one horse race. Not only that but the games haven't tapped the power of the Xbox. Surely the PS2 has shown its age but the Xbox for the most part was never fully programmed for. It's ashame that in the sports game arena there isn't other developers willing to take risks. I would think with the ability not to use licenses this could open up more games like Winning Eleven. Where you can't really on the big name stars to sell your game.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:02 am

Wow, this thread blew up fast. I've noticed that things have been slow here lately, so maybe we were all due to vent.

Here's my take as a consumer. First, I don't care how many people work on game X or why game X will or will not have certain features. The bottom line to me as a consumer is I'm seeing a $10 increase in price for a game that has less features than the $50 one I bought last year. It's not worth the extra money and stripped-down game just to get prettier pictures.

I'm not paying $60 for 6 courses. I'm also not paying for a "next-gen" football game that has classic teams removed from it. If it doesn't matter to you, then fine. But it matters to me.

I have no wish to play the part of investor for EA by plunking down $60 for a bare-bones game because I understand that moving to a new console is a lot of work. Boo hoo, it takes a lot of development to move to a new console. Then don't make a game for it. Don't spend bilions on a license. It's not my duty to help EA along by paying for inferior versions just so I can eventually get what I want from them 3 years later.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:04 am

But JRod, NFL 2k got a free pass on A LOT of flaws because it was so shiny and new -- I should know, I wrote a much too glowing review of it for GamesDomain at the time. It lacked a lot of features other football games had on the PSX. So it was a new game being made -- the argument is similar. VC needed to focus on the graphics and basic gameplay, and squeezed in what they could before their deadline. And it's not just Sega -- go back and look at Quarterback Club, Inside Drive, GameDay, etc.

Same thing with Madden. Now, with having a foundation already in place, EA has an advantage over a developer creating a brand new title. But they still have a ton of work to do to jump from one generation to the next. And the biggest changes tend to involve graphics and animations/physics. The graphics in Madden 360 are going to probably blow the XBox away -- the detail is incredible, and I imagine in 720p it's going to look quite a bit different. What I think a lot of us are hung up on are the animations -- the movies have looked jerky and the animations seem similar to this generation.

But I don't think it's EA being careless or callous. James is right -- they have to get everything tested AND ready to go by a very fixed deadline. They are not Valve, they can't take years to get a game just right, not in the sports gaming arena. Combine that with a very aggressive 360 schedule, and you've got a developer in a serious time crunch.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:15 am

Certainly it is not an EA phenomena. Remember when the PS2 came out? Sure, Madden was limited, but remember how pathetic some of the other games were? Gameday and Gamebreaker were simply pathetic.

And the first versions of the NF2K series for the PS2 and Xbox were not particularly stellar either.

It does bug me that EA still codes for the PS2. It makes sense because the sell more games for it, but it means that the power and hard drive for the Xbox are wasted. I would guess that some development decisions for games are made based on the size of the save file for the PS2. Since the game is ported to the Xbox or the same game is developed for both, the Xbox user loses out because the game is limited by another piece of hardware.

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:02 pm

kevinpars wrote:Certainly it is not an EA phenomena. Remember when the PS2 came out? Sure, Madden was limited, but remember how pathetic some of the other games were? Gameday and Gamebreaker were simply pathetic.

And the first versions of the NF2K series for the PS2 and Xbox were not particularly stellar either.

It does bug me that EA still codes for the PS2. It makes sense because the sell more games for it, but it means that the power and hard drive for the Xbox are wasted. I would guess that some development decisions for games are made based on the size of the save file for the PS2. Since the game is ported to the Xbox or the same game is developed for both, the Xbox user loses out because the game is limited by another piece of hardware.

I can certainly understand the frustration that XBox owners feel about this, but can you really blame EA for doing this? You can't really expect them to produce different games for the different consoles. Porting is the reality that we face, and it only makes sense to base a game off of the console that has the biggest market share. I'm sure if Microsoft pulls ahead in the next generation that you'll see the tables turn.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:11 pm

No one has mentioned this yet, so let me chime in.

Now...why would someone want to upgrade to a next-gen system? What is the main selling point from the start?

Graphics...that's all there is to it.

If the development teams don't put forth a damn fine graphical effort, people won't buy it. Features, to the mainstream public, is secondary to the shiny new graphics. No one is going to buy a shitty looking game beceause it's got superstar mode. The general public is what constitutes a graphic whore nature. If the next gen systems don't put forth the graphical upgrade that the public wants, they won't sell at all. I'm sure that's why the dev. teams are spending the majority of their time putting together a nice graphical package, not implementing the superstar mode or whatever.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:14 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:Who said they were leaving?

"Everytime I think I'm out, they just keep draggin me back in"

This thread is funny, same people, same arguments, same tactics.

Haven't we established who hates EA at this point and can't we just move on?

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:15 pm

DB is right and I almost mentioned it earlier. As much as we like to believe we're not we are all graphics whores as well. The few looks of Madden 360 we've had have been universally panned here (I think I'm the only one who is impressed at all by the graphics). A lot of "It doesn't look next-gen" comments were made.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:18 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:DB is right and I almost mentioned it earlier. As much as we like to believe we're not we are all graphics whores as well. The few looks of Madden 360 we've had have been universally panned here (I think I'm the only one who is impressed at all by the graphics). A lot of "It doesn't look next-gen" comments were made.

I'm impressed as well. I also think that we're just seeing compressed clips over the internet, so they will most likely be even better than what we've laid our eyes on so far.

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:11 pm

matthewk wrote: I have no wish to play the part of investor for EA by plunking down $60 for a bare-bones game because I understand that moving to a new console is a lot of work. Boo hoo, it takes a lot of development to move to a new console. Then don't make a game for it. Don't spend bilions on a license. It's not my duty to help EA along by paying for inferior versions just so I can eventually get what I want from them 3 years later.

The more I think about this statement, the more I agree with it. While I appreciate DivotMakers insight, and while I could really care less about those 'extra' features, there really is no excuse for a company this big and this lucrative. EA’s 1st gen 360 games better look and play like we are expecting them to given the power of this system, the money behind EA and what we are starting to see for the 360 from over development companies or they will have some serious ‘splainin to do!!!! I, for one, am not very optimistic.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:27 pm

Spooky wrote:
matthewk wrote: I have no wish to play the part of investor for EA by plunking down $60 for a bare-bones game because I understand that moving to a new console is a lot of work. Boo hoo, it takes a lot of development to move to a new console. Then don't make a game for it. Don't spend bilions on a license. It's not my duty to help EA along by paying for inferior versions just so I can eventually get what I want from them 3 years later.
The more I think about this statement, the more I agree with it. While I appreciate DivotMakers insight, and while I could really care less about those 'extra' features, there really is no excuse for a company this big and this lucrative. EA’s 1st gen 360 games better look and play like we are expecting them to given the power of this system, the money behind EA and what we are starting to see for the 360 from over development companies or they will have some serious ‘splainin to do!!!! I, for one, am not very optimistic.

Yeah, but those titles aren't yearly releases meaning they have much more development time than an annual franchise like Madden. Wait to see the final product of Madden and how it plays before dismissing it for a lack of features. The PSP version of Madden is a solid game of football and more than I could have hoped for from a first version.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:31 pm

From a business standpoint, I certainly can't blame EA or anyone else for coding to the lowest common denominator. If EA was putting a lot of time, effort and money into Xbox versions and not getting a financial return, it would not make good business sense.

And I think what divotmaker was implying is that EA did not go out and hire a whole bunch of new developers or programmers or artists for the 360 versions. It makes sense that they are spread too thin because they are still working on PS2, Xbox and PSP, PC and now have the 360 to develop for this winter and have to plan for the PS3 next year.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:31 pm

If you don't want to pay $60 for 3 courses or no Owner mode, then don't.

In a few weeks, these things will be discounted.

Even for release week, don't be surprised if some stores have it at least $10 off.

Actually, even if these games weren't feature-impaired, wouldn't people still complain about paying $60?

Which of these launch games are worth $60? Or even $50?

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:33 pm

wco81 wrote: Which of these launch games are worth $60? Or even $50?

From the brief video I've seen, it looks like PGR3 will fit the bill.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:38 pm

Danimal wrote:
ScoopBrady wrote:Who said they were leaving?
"Everytime I think I'm out, they just keep draggin me back in"

This thread is funny, same people, same arguments, same tactics.

Haven't we established who hates EA at this point and can't we just move on?

For the record I hate EA the company, they are going to be the downfall of video gaming as we know it if they contiune the way they are. As a sports gamers I think we all have the right to make complaints about decisons they make that impact us individually or as a whole. it's not like I boycott their games. That does not mean I hate all their products. I bought Madden 06 but went back to ESPN. The most played game in my rotation is NCAA 06 and while flawed, is still fun.

The next generation excuse of cutting features is tired. Of course those not complaining about no create a player feature might be kicking themself if EA has a few roster hiccups.

They are the only NFL game in town last I checked, so in theory if I wanted an NFL game they are forcing me to buy their product.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:50 pm

Well according to the fact sheet on Madden 360 at www.every10minutes.com there will be a franchise mode.

Revolutionary Player Models-3d head scans provide photo-realistic faces and physiques and a level of detail that shows the emotion and intensity of the NFL like never before.

Incredibly Detailed Environments-From the reactions of coaches and players on the sidelines to the seat-level accuracy of thousands of lifelike fans, see details of the stadium that have never been possible before now.

Next Gen Graphical Effects-New graphical engine allows for more realistic lighting and visual effects than ever before.

Redefined Gameplay-Select plays in a whole new way with the innovative playcalling and new picture-in-picture system. Popular features like QB Vision Control and the Hit Stick are also included to make Madden NFL veterans feel right at home.

Sight and Sounds of the NFL-Featuring biased hometown radio announcer, replays and injury reports on the jumbotron, and actual NFL Films on-field audio including hits and player chatter.

Advanced Franchise Mode-The game mode invented by Madden NFL Football comes to the Xbox 360 with new, easy-to-use Player, Team, and Box Score Cards that give you all the information you need to take your team to the top.

Online Play-Find your ideal opponent across the nation using multiple matchmaking options.

Extensive Customization Options-Customize settings, menu music playlists, gameplay controls, strategies, and more.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:54 pm

Good point BD. How important does a create a player fetaure become if the game ships without Kyle Orton, Ricky Williams, or Vinnie Tes...ok forget that last one.

Even if the graphics are noticeably better, I still can't see spending $500 for a 360 and 1 game, even if it's PGR3.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:56 pm

Franchise mode was never mentioned to be removed. It was owner mode, superstar mode, classic teams and create a player.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:15 pm

If they don't have create a player, hopefully they will let you edit current ones. That way you can take scrubs off the FA list and change them to match the real players that made teams after the initial roster cutoff date. I would think that the cutoff date will be opening weekend so we should have fairly decent rosters out of the box as it is, so it might be much adu about nothing.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:18 pm

fsquid wrote:Get off your high horse mate.

If I am on a "high horse" at least I don't have to apologize for making vulgar and idiotic posts...your post was ridiculously offensive and better left unsaid.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:38 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
fsquid wrote:Get off your high horse mate.
If I am on a "high horse" at least I don't have to apologize for making vulgar and idiotic posts...your post was ridiculously offensive and better left unsaid.

I guess the question begs to be asked: Would you feel the same if Squid said:

"2K Sports sucks dick" or "Ubisoft sucks dick?"

Inquiring minds want to know. Fact is, Tim, you can claim objectivity and distance from EA all you want, and we know better. You work for the company, whether it's on contract or not, so you have a certain allegiance to EA from which you can't divorce yourself.

You saying you're completely distanced and objective from EA would be like me saying I'm objective in my comments about the IRL and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

We appreciate your insight about all things EA, as the company makes some good games and is the colossus. But we're aware of your biases and like you nonetheless.

Take care,
PK

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:43 pm

pk500 wrote: I guess the question begs to be asked: Would you feel the same if Squid said:

"2K Sports sucks dick" or "Ubisoft sucks dick?"

Inquiring minds want to know. Fact is, Tim, you can claim objectivity and distance from EA all you want, and we know better. You work for the company, whether it's on contract or not, so you have a certain allegiance to EA from which you can't divorce yourself.

You saying you're completely distanced and objective from EA would be like me saying I'm objective in my comments about the IRL and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

We appreciate your insight about all things EA, as the company makes some good games and is the colossus. But we're aware of your biases and like you nonetheless.

Take care,
PK

First of all, I have not done any work for EA in over two years, so I think we can put that to bed now.

My responses to his comments had nothing to do with EA. I could give a rats ass if he hates EA or not. I thought his comments were vulgar and completely unnecessary and added NOTHING to the discussion. It is truly sad that we live in a day and age where people cannot communicate themselves any better than that.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:46 pm

Tim:

First, Squid's original post was glib. And even if it wasn't, this is a forum devoted to sports gaming, which doesn't exactly rank up there in importance with cancer cures, disaster relief and world hunger. Effective ability to communicate never has been a prerequisite for membership to this Forum, and I kind of like it that way.

Everybody just needs to inhale some Quaalude vapor and chill.

Take care,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:48 pm

Brando70 wrote:Someone calling the game other than Madden and Michaels is actually a selling point for me

By lack of owner's mode, do they mean no franchise at all, or just none of the financial stuff (ticket prices, etc.). If there's still a franchise mode, I'm still interested. If not, no way I'm buying this.

Brent, this is why I posted that about franchise mode.

And I think it's kind of hypocritical (I'm not saying you because I honestly don't remember if you said anything about it or not) that people complain that Superstar mode is the dumbest new mode and EA was dumb as hell for doing it and also have made comments that Owner mode was stupid and they didn't give a f*** about setting the price of hotdogs yet they b*tch and moan that it's doesn't make the cut. WTF?