Very initial Madden 2005 impressions

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pk500
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Very initial Madden 2005 impressions

Post by pk500 »

Boys:

Rented Madden this evening and played a quick game or two. VERY initial impressions:

-- This game looks like ASS compared to ESPN NFL. It's almost like comparing a PSOne game to a Dreamcast game. It's that stark.

-- The Madden audible system is simply awful. Very unintuitive, just as in past editions.

-- The number of pre-snap options on both sides of the ball are mind-boggling in Madden. Really something for pigskin sim heads. A bit daunting for me, though.

-- I'm not seeing Mario running like I have in the past in Madden. I'm running for some yards, but not a ton. But the holes are easier to follow in ESPN, and it's more rewarding to follow your blocks in ESPN than Madden.

-- A lot more zip on passes in Madden. Seems more realistic than the floaters hung up by ESPN quarterbacks.

-- I don't understand how everyone is saying Madden plays so smoothly. If anything, I find Madden to be more herky-jerky in its animations than ESPN. The game seems to move a touch faster than ESPN, which probably is more realistic. But it doesn't seem that smooth.

-- Madden has better DB play, hands down. In fact, it's almost too good. DB's and LB's bat down balls at a rapid rate.

I can see why everyone says both ESPN and Madden have something for everyone. But I'm not blown away yet by Madden, and so far I'm glad I didn't shell out the $50 for it. It doesn't seem $30 better than ESPN from my initial impressions, but I can see where it would be a pigskin purist's dream due to the myriad pre-snap options and deep franchise mode.

But again, based on initial impressions, Madden seems to be more of a virtual football clinic, while ESPN seems to be more of a virtual football game. Madden seems to be the Full Spectrum Warrior of console football, while ESPN seems to be more of the Rainbow Six of console football.

Both good, but both very different.

More impressions to follow this weekend.

Take care,
PK
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Post by Boom »

Defensive control is the difference so far for me. I like both games a lot. Hell of a lot more than I did last year in both cases. However I'm not the type of player who just uses a defensive lineman and tries to attack the quarterback.

I need to have good control of my LB or Safetey and Madden gives me much more than ESPN. The DB play in ESPN is so god awful that it brings an incredible game down to very good.

I don't find the audible's and presnap adjustments unintuitive. Different maybe, if you're used to doing it ESPN's way. It works both ways if you're not used to it.

Comes down to taste and both are good games. Each does stuff that bothers the s*** out of me, and both do things that I think are just truly awesome.

Good year for NFL games. Nice, considering last year was terrible IMO.
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Post by Toper »

Boom wrote:I don't find the audible's and presnap adjustments unintuitive. Different maybe, if you're used to doing it ESPN's way. It works both ways if you're not used to it.

Comes down to taste and both are good games. Each does stuff that bothers the s*** out of me, and both do things that I think are just truly awesome.

Good year for NFL games. Nice, considering last year was terrible IMO.

Well put and I agree: It's good to see competition resulting in much improved products for both parties this year.

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Post by Spooky »

Can we keep the impressions all in one thread please??? This isn't OS. :wink: :lol: :wink:

Good impressions PK. Quite similar to what I have experienced so far (except perhaps, for the smoothness assesment). Zeppo mentioned liking both games but when playing one, wishing it had stuff from the other and vice versa. That pretty much sums up how I feel. While both have thier strenths (and the strenths are very good), the things lacking in each seem to be the things done well in the other game... Interesting.
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Post by pk500 »

Sorry -- I'm moving this to the Madden impressions thread.

Out,
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Post by Spooky »

pk500 wrote:Sorry -- I'm moving this to the Madden impressions thread.

Out,
PK
Just giving you sh*t PK. Seriously.
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Post by laurenskye »

I agree with PK but it looks like the LB's and DB's in Madden just cheat. I'll have guys open and lead them with the ball and just before the ball gets there the DB gets super speed and then a super jump (this is with his back to the ball) to knock it away. Or the LB will warp at super speed in the opposite direction he going in. This to me is not "great DB play".

I think Sega's is more realistic. If you have a guy open you know you can get it to him and the AI isn't going to warp into position to knock it away.

And what's with not being able to see your wideouts or a running back in the flat? Maybe it's just me but unless I zoom out and the players are the size of pinheads you can't see to cover the flats or your wideouts.
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Post by Sudz »

XBOX----$40 shipped. PM me.
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Post by pk500 »

laurenskye wrote:I agree with PK but it looks like the LB's and DB's in Madden just cheat. I'll have guys open and lead them with the ball and just before the ball gets there the DB gets super speed and then a super jump (this is with his back to the ball) to knock it away. Or the LB will warp at super speed in the opposite direction he going in. This to me is not "great DB play".

I think Sega's is more realistic. If you have a guy open you know you can get it to him and the AI isn't going to warp into position to knock it away.

And what's with not being able to see your wideouts or a running back in the flat? Maybe it's just me but unless I zoom out and the players are the size of pinheads you can't see to cover the flats or your wideouts.
Skye:

Both games have DB/receiving flaws, but in a different way.

Madden's receivers never drop a ball, which is unrealistic. The DB's and LB's often are in perfect position, but they are the bastard offspring of David Thompson and Dwight Stones with their insane leaping ability to break up passes.

ESPN's receivers drop too many balls, which is unrealistic. The DB's and LB's don't have the unrealistic leaping ability of Madden's, but they're out of position more than Madden's, too.

Yet another wash.

These two games are so close in quality that it's not funny.

Take care,
PK
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Post by reeche »

Finally got around to picking it up and playing it myself. Good game. Every year I tend to buy into the hype that Madden and ESPN will be radically different and they never are. I suppose that's a good thing in some ways. They are at the minimum both very good games. I'll keep my thoughts kinda brief

The Good:

1.) Receivers actually catch the ball unlike in NCAA. Okay so that's more a knock on that game but it's fun to now a play a game with that engine and actually be able to make plays instead of having them drop passes for the "realistic NCAA" 8O
2.) You know the hit-stick isn't bad. Unlike playmaker which I never use and think is a waste, there is something cool about trying to reach over and time a hit stick move right. I think there is some potential to do more with it in the future. Not a huge feature at this point, but I was suprised that I didn't hate it.
3.) Kicking Game. Actually really challenging. I like that. ESPN really needs to dump their kicking arrow they've been using forever and do something more interesting. The kicking game in Madden is actually a challenge
4.) The best franchise mode as usual. I don't play Franchise myself as I only play online, so this isn't really a big deal for me, but I respect that they have a really good one.
5.) Fumbles. I know some people are saying there are too many but I like the fact that fumbles can occur in a lot of situatons and after all there is a tuck button. Seems like people never fumble in ESPN.
6.) Game more defensive this year. There is still an ability to rack up major yardage but I was happy that the team at least made a move towards this direction after ignoring the defense since 2001. It's not nearly as defensive as some people make it out to be, but it's certainly more defensive in many ways than Madden has been before which historically has always been a shoot-out who has the ball last kind of game.


The negatives.

1. The running game. I can't believe every year that people tolerate this from Madden. The mario running. The getting clogged ina group and not being able to move. The sluggish stuck in mud feel of it. The lack of gang tackles. The sometimes improbable uber penetration by the defense. I detest the Madden running game
2. Super Db's. Now while I say this isn't nearly as bad as NCAA mainly because the receivers can catch the ball when you get it to them, it's still annoying the me. Instead of having db's in position to make plays, the game cheat likes NCAA and simple slides defenders into position, or gives them turbo jets. Once you know the kinds of routes to throw to this becomes less of an issues but the db's are not smart like some people claim they are. They just tend to magically slide into position once the ball is thrown no matter what they were doing before.
3. Presentation is lame. It's amazing how things can change so rapidly. I remember when Madden had the best in game presentation and the 2k series sucked at it. Things have really changed. Madden is very dry on the presentation side. The game simply doesn't "feel" or look like a television broadcast which sucks away a little of the immersion
4. Low trajectory passes. It's weird but every pass in Madden to me feels low and too fast. Like it's really hard to take something off the pass... Perhaps it's just personal taste but I wish the balls had a little more lift under them so I could more easily throw things over the top. Instead it feels like either I can throw a floaty lob or a low line bullet that's going to be batted down and nothing in between.

Otherwise I think it's a very good and very enjoyable game. Certainly a far more entertaining experience than playing NCAA was. I'm more of an ESPN fan but I definitely see myself playing both a lot in the upcoming months.
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Post by Leebo33 »

pk500 wrote: Madden's receivers never drop a ball, which is unrealistic. The DB's and LB's often are in perfect position, but they are the bastard offspring of David Thompson and Dwight Stones with their insane leaping ability to break up passes.
The CPU usually flat out drops one or two passes against me, which I like and find realistic. I usually don't drop many, but my completion percentage is realistic and I don't have guys making over-the-shoulder one-haneded grabs so I can live with it.

There are two settings within the custom game menu. One is for catch assist and the other is for Defensive pass assist. I haven't messed with them yet, but maybe they would cause more drops or make the pass defense harder without slider adjustments (I personally have NO trouble giving up passing yards as the Steelers...which is realistic).
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Post by Alan_Bernardo »

"I agree with PK but it looks like the LB's and DB's in Madden just cheat. I'll have guys open and lead them with the ball and just before the ball gets there the DB gets super speed and then a super jump (this is with his back to the ball) to knock it away. Or the LB will warp at super speed in the opposite direction he going in. This to me is not "great DB play"."


I've heard this before and haven't seen it nor do I care to make excuses that it does exist. In a lot of cases, when a ball is thrown incomplete, we tend to blame other things rather than that maybe it's us.


"Madden's receivers never drop a ball, which is unrealistic. The DB's and LB's often are in perfect position, but they are the bastard offspring of David Thompson and Dwight Stones with their insane leaping ability to break up passes."


I don't think you can say this. I've seen Madden receivers drop the ball with about the same frequency that it happens in the NFL. And, again, I haven't seen this "insane leaping ability", other than what I see in the NFL.


"ESPN's receivers drop too many balls, which is unrealistic."


I agree with this. ESPN is a good game, but after playing both ESPN and Madden, I have to give the nod to Madden.


"These two games are so close in quality that it's not funny."


Close? Not sure. The deeper I get into Madden the more the game distances itself from ESPN.


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Post by reeche »

Alan_Bernardo wrote:"I agree with PK but it looks like the LB's and DB's in Madden just cheat. I'll have guys open and lead them with the ball and just before the ball gets there the DB gets super speed and then a super jump (this is with his back to the ball) to knock it away. Or the LB will warp at super speed in the opposite direction he going in. This to me is not "great DB play"."


I've heard this before and haven't seen it nor do I care to make excuses that it does exist. In a lot of cases, when a ball is thrown incomplete, we tend to blame other things rather than that maybe it's us.Alanb
The rest of that was opinion which is valid or not valid depending on your point of view but it very obvious to me not only when you are playing but when you look at any replay when a ball is thrown that the db's don't react in a real manner.

Defenders often get a speed boost to get in front a pass and bat the ball. All defenders are immediately aware the second a ball is thrown which is why they are often multiple defenders in position to make a play on a ball. Or you have people transition from one animation to another that is impossible to do. The momentum suddenly dissapears on defense as a player can be sucked back or slide into place to make a play. Something the offensive player can't do. I'm sure all footballs games cheat with their db's but the madden engine used in NCAA and does to a larger degree than the others. How many times do you see a linebacker other than an elite one jump up and bat down a ball over his head in real life. Not often. Happens all the time in Madden and not only that but my linebackers intercept them a lot also. Once again not meant as an overly aggressive knock on Madden. ESPN has issues in other areas I could critque also. But I can clearly see why people say the Db's and LB's "cheat" in Madden because they do. The major difference between Madden and NCAA that makes it less frustrating is that at least the WR's hold on to the ball in Madden so you aren't being doubly screwed.
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Post by reeche »

Forgot to mention one more thing. I don't like how they refuse to fix the suction blocking in Madden year after year. To be fair and balanced though, one thing I hate about ESPN is how they have no spy plays in their defensive playbooks. Quite annoying as I have to manually do it. I also like those receiver option routes in Madden where the receiver has those branching routes.

I have my own bias as to which I like more but I constantly find things in one or the other that I like or that the other is deficient in. They truly are two different playing styles of football games so I generally ignore people who try to convince me which one is "better" and I try not to do it myself. It's simply which aspect of football do you like your game tailored around. They both are equally "real" in different aspects imo.
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Post by pk500 »

Reeche:

Great summation in your last post. Neither football game is bad this year. Neither is really superior to the other. But both offer very good, very different styles of play and are quite complimentary.

>>>I don't think you can say this. I've seen Madden receivers drop the ball with about the same frequency that it happens in the NFL. And, again, I haven't seen this "insane leaping ability", other than what I see in the NFL.<<<

Alan:

I certainly can say this. I'm seeing too many linebackers jump to swat balls intended for receivers that are 8-10 yards past them downfield. Most NFL QB's have more touch than that and wouldn't throw a ball that could be swatted by a linebacker in that position.

I have no problem with the swats and tips when the LB or DB is in proper coverage. But I see too many swats and tips on longer passes by players, especially LB's, that aren't playing long pass coverage. And when I'm on defense, that allows me to be more aggressive and run more blitzes than in ESPN because I know the LB's and DB's will cover nearly everything.

Again, I just feel more fear playing defense in ESPN than Madden. I feel like I will be punished more for my mistakes in ESPN than Madden. It's not a huge difference, more of a "feel" thing.

The uber-tips and uber-swats are not a huge flaw and don't happen on every pass over the middle. And Lord knows, ESPN has its quirks, too. But the super-swats do happen a bit too much for my tastes and neuter the effectiveness of throwing over the middle.

Maybe you run more out patterns and hooks than me. I love running slants over the middle, which get swatted away at a bit of an unrealistic clip in Madden.

Take care,
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Post by Leebo33 »

pk500 wrote: I certainly can say this. I'm seeing too many linebackers jump to swat balls intended for receivers that are 8-10 yards past them downfield. Most NFL QB's have more touch than that and wouldn't throw a ball that could be swatted by a linebacker in that position.

I have no problem with the swats and tips when the LB or DB is in proper coverage. But I see too many swats and tips on longer passes by players, especially LB's, that aren't playing long pass coverage. And when I'm on defense, that allows me to be more aggressive and run more blitzes than in ESPN because I know the LB's and DB's will cover nearly everything.
When I'm on offense I only get the "LB swat" on a longer pass maybe once a game. If I get it more it is usually because I zipped the ball. When I have the proper touch and accuracy I can usually avoid it. BTW, I LOVE the way you can target your passes. It seems much easier to do than maximum passing. I've never had this much fun passing in a football game before.

I never really noticed it playing defense, but then again I always switch to the closest defender right away and it may be human error on my part. I wish I had more swats. I give up quite a bit through the air...as I should with the Steelers' pitiful secondary.

BTW, has anyone else turned off the commentary? I turned it off today and didn't miss it one bit. I just used my imagination and could hear Hillgrove and Cope announcing my game..."Yoi and double yoi!!!!"
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Post by dbdynsty25 »

I'm still tryin to figure out why everyone says that Madden is a defensive game this year...

My first 4 game scores on All-Pro w/ sliders FOR the CPU

43-33 Win
41-37 Win
31-35 Loss
38-28 Win

Needless to say. I suck on D apparently, and I can slice up the AI D as well. Can't go up to All-Madden yet cuz I give up too many big plays.
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Post by pk500 »

DB:

You're not alone. My games in Madden are higher scoring than those in ESPN at comparable skill levels. I'm lighting it up as much as you, but both sides are scoring more in Madden than ESPN for me.

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Post by Leebo33 »

My games are high scoring as well. I chalked it up to my poor Steelers' defense and relatively good offense, but it looks like it may be a concern. Hopefully, a few slider adjustments will fix.
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Post by ScoopBrady »

I have yet to have either the cpu or my team score more than 17 points on All Pro with 8 minute quarters and accelerated clock on.
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Post by dbdynsty25 »

ScoopBrady wrote:I have yet to have either the cpu or my team score more than 17 points on All Pro with 8 minute quarters and accelerated clock on.
Well you're playing short games. I'm playing on 12 min. accelerated. It gets you a more realistic amount of plays per game.
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Post by Leebo33 »

I am using 12 minute quarters with accelerated clock. I'm getting to the magical 120-130 play mark, so I can't really change it.
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Post by dbdynsty25 »

Leebo33 wrote:I am using 12 minute quarters with accelerated clock. I'm getting to the magical 120-130 play mark, so I can't really change it.
Exactly Leebo...8 min. accelerated would be WAY too short. Hence Scoop hitting the 17 points per game mark.
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Post by ScoopBrady »

Well, the game was optimized for 5 minute quarters non-accelerated clock to ensure that the Madden Challenge wasn't a joke again this year. Madden was not too pleased with the final score of the Madden Challenge Final game last year. I guess there's got to be some sort of sacrifice with Madden this year, lower scores or realistic number of plays run. I was thinking of bumping it up to 10 minutes accelerated but I'm afraid any longer than that and the game will take over an hour to complete.
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Post by jimd »

ScoopBrady wrote:I was thinking of bumping it up to 10 minutes accelerated but I'm afraid any longer than that and the game will take over an hour to complete.
I am playing with 10 min. accelerated qrtrs. and averaging about 100 plays a game. Probably need to bump it up to 11 or 12 minutes if you want to hit the magic number of 120 plays. I still think you can play a game in under an hour, howeever.

But if you can't, Madden has the in-game save. For someone with a six-week old daughter, who doesn't like to sleep, it's about the only way I can complete a game! Because of this vital detail, Madden has become the game of choice for me over ESPN.
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