A TOCA 2 classic

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:06 am

Man, my very first race of the night Thursday night was a classic. I get an invite from a DSP room -- thanks, fellas! -- and JamesE is playing host to the Mustang Classic category. The first race is at Road America.

Slumberland and I pull away from the field on the first of five laps. And for the next four laps, Slumber and I must have traded the lead close to a dozen times. I sh*t you not. We never were separated by more than a second over 20 miles of racing until the final corner. We raced hard as hell but pretty clean other than a few coincidental nudges while fighting for space. Nothing malicious at all, nobody punted into the kitty litter.

I'm leading going into the final corner, an uphill right-hander. I drive it in too deep, as Slumber is pressuring the hell out of me. I don't put it into the kitty litter but leave the inside open, going wide. Slumber scooted through and used his momentum to power up the hill to the finish, winning by around 1.5 seconds in a great bit of driving. We probably swapped the lead a good three or four times on the final lap, from what I can remember.

What an incredible race. What an incredible game.

Take care,
PK

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:33 am

I had a classic race last night as well.

Terry was hosting a DSP room and we were running the Formula Fords. Due to Terry getting caught up in a bit of a tangle at the back on the start I manage to take the lead. Knowing full well that Terry will work through the field in no time I just try to enjoy the lead while I can. Sure enough before the first lap is half over I see Terry and Zeppo following close behind. But here is the wild part ... I manage to hold off both of them for two whole laps. Frankly I was stunned.

Terry of course did manage to get around me and get the win but it was Terry, me & Zeppo ... 1, 2 and 3 over the finish line within sight of each other after five laps. I'm sure it's not as exciting as the lead swaps you guys had but it sure felt awesome to run five clean laps up front with the big boys.

mixdj1

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:38 am

Good stories guys!

Here is my AMAZING experience...

I am in this game with my DSP buddies, I am running about 5th place, take a turn on the 2nd lap and WHAMMO!!! I fall into last place and stay there for the rest of the race not even finishing. But wait...it gets better...

The next race I am running about 5th place, take a turn on the 2nd lap and WHAMMO!!! I fall into last place and stay there for the rest of the race not even finishing. But wait...it gets even better...

The next race I am running about 5th place, take a turn on the 2nd lap and WHAMMO!!! I fall into last place and stay there for the rest of the race not even finishing. But wait...it gets even better than that...

The next race I am running about 5th place, take a turn on the 2nd lap and WHAMMO!!! I fall into last place and stay there for the rest of the race not even finishing.

I think you get the picture of my first night with TOCA 2.

mgoblue · Post by **mgoblue** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:39 am

two great races! congrats mixdj, that is an accomplishment to hang with Terry...he's usually off my radar

oh, I'm also mgoblue21 on Live, so i've played SC with some of you guys, and I'll see you around in TOCA as well. I'm not as much of a gearhead, but this game has sucked me in. Live play is amazing

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:44 am

Blue:

Welcome to DSP, man. Don't be a stranger. We'll see you on TOCA 2 on XBL!

Take care,
PK

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:49 am

Thanks Spooky for almost getting me in trouble at work. I was laughing my ass off at what you wrote!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:51 am

Mixer:

You've touched upon one of the great features and ironies of TOCA 2 compared to PGR 2: It's a tougher game to drive, but it also seems to breed more varied results.

No offense to Terry because the guy is brilliant, but a victory by him is almost predestined in PGR 2. He is so skilled, plus the forgiving damage and collision models let him survive any early scraps that he's sucked into.

In TOCA 2, collisions hurt a lot more, figuratively. A hard scrape in the first corner can be lethal, which levels the playing field. I'm not suggesting to use crashing as a tactic, as the hitter is hurt just as much as the target in this game.

Again, that's not a slight of Terry. He wins because he's faster than anyone else. But he doesn't seem as dominant in TOCA 2 as he did in PGR 2 -- at least not yet.

And I don't think that's any indictment of his skill. It's simply a compliment to the damage model. Mistakes are punished and punished hard.

As a result, I see a lot more people winning in TOCA 2 than in PGR 2. The collision and damage models seem to keep people much more honest than in PGR 2, and I've also noticed that everyone seems to have a car class that suits them perfectly.

I usually am pretty quick in Formula Fords and the Ford GT's in Sunshine Cup, for some reason. I run quickly in the classic Mustangs, too. But other classes I'm total sh*t.

Bottom line: I've seen Terry, Slumber, pigpen81 and Zeppo drive nearly perfect races and win convincingly.

Oh, and add another member to that list. Scoop's brother, Gman, was absolutely flying last night at Vallelunga in a class I can't remember now. Point is, he held off Terry over a three-lap race and won.

What a game!

Out,
PK

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:55 am

sportdan30 wrote:Thanks Spooky for almost getting me in trouble at work. I was laughing my ass off at what you wrote!

Anytime!

Kruza · Post by **Kruza** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:03 pm

*sigh* Must... show... willpower... to... not... jump... online... yet. Argh!

Kruza

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:10 pm

Kruza wrote:*sigh* Must... show... willpower... to... not... jump... online... yet. Argh!

Kruza

Dude:

Why? You're a virtual racing stud -- why don't you want to race others?

Take care,
PK

Kruza · Post by **Kruza** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:43 pm

Oh, it's not that. It's just that I want to finish up Career mode to unlock everything and get this out of the way before hopping online so I can race in anything and everywhere as host of a lobby. I may jump on for a few races every now and then, but I don't want to get hooked yet until I'm completely finished with Career mode. And topics like these aren't helping out at all, LOL!

And by the way... I recently unlocked the America 1000 car, which is basically an IRL car. Wait until you get to drive those bad boys around right after driving in GT cars and convertibles for most of the time. Huuuuge difference.

Kruza

Blublub · Post by **Blublub** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:48 pm

Speaking of Road America, I grew up right next door and TOCA captures it like I've never seen before in a game. It's remarkable to see actual Kohler and Sargento ads!

That said, I'm finding out how much I suck at racing games in general. In Toca I have two speeds - full throttle and dead stop by a brick wall. While I can handle the muscle cars fair enough, the following sums up my experience with those little spider cars and the Indy versions: wipe out in first corner, spend much of the race doing donuts on the infield trying to get started, and eventually be forced to retire from damage or miss the 30 second online cut.

I'm beginning to think this might be just a little too real for neophytes like myself.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:01 pm

Blub:

Try some of the oldest advice in the racing book: Slow in, fast out in corners.

Seriously, try braking 50 meters earlier for corners, as all of the big corners on every track have sign boards adjacent to the track in the braking zones, just like in reality.

Sounds to me like you're braking too late and jumping on the gas too hard and too early in the corners. Try to slow a bit earlier and have your speed under control as you enter the corner, coast through to the middle of the corner (apex) and then put on the power for the exit.

At least that's how it's supposed to work. I have varying degress of success.

Out,
PK

Blublub · Post by **Blublub** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:05 pm

pk500 wrote:Blub:
Sounds to me like you're braking too late and jumping on the gas too hard and too early in the corners. Try to slow a bit earlier and have your speed under control as you enter the corner, coast through to the middle of the corner (apex) and then put on the power for the exit.

Thanks PK, I'm sure you're right about that. It's that gap between knowing what to do and actually being able to do it that is giving me fits.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:10 pm

Blub:

First thing, use the triggers lightly. This game really rewards careful throttle control (and brake control, for that matter), so don't use the throttle as an "on/off" switch, like it used to be in the SNES days. Really try to feather that thing it when applying power out of a turn.

Also, I turned off the map display at one point (I NEVER turn off the map!), and it actually has helped me make the turns, and learn the maps, and I think I'll leace it off. Maybe you should give it a try. The first thing I noticed was that I started paying WAY more attention to the distance signs on approach to sharp corners. Baasically, the huge arrows give you the heads up that a turn is coming, and the distance signs let you know you will need to brake.

With the map off, I am much more attentive to the distance signs (I'm sure they have a proper name, but I don't know what it is). I also seem to have a much better time recognizing spots on the circuit, since I am not relying on the map to give me the heads up.

Worth a shot, maybe.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:16 pm

Blub:

It's all about carrying consistent speed through the corners so you have plenty of momentum for the corner exit.

Late braking works well with some cars that have a lot of downforce and good acceleration, especially the Global GT Lights sports cars. But most cars require early speed control before the corner entry, a bit of coasting to the apex and then pouring on the power with controlled aggression toward the corner exit.

TCrouch is the master of cornering. It's really fun to sit behind him and watch him work. Almost always takes the proper line, and you hardly ever see white wisps of tire smoke coming from his car due to overbraking.

Take care,
PK

Blublub · Post by **Blublub** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:47 pm

Thanks guys, great tips - I know I've been violating just about all of them. Looking forward to catching a DS event online.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:05 pm

Here's another tip:

I may be way off base about this, so anyone correct me if I'm crazy, but, I am constantly reminding myself to think of corners in 3 parts: braking, turning, then accelerating. I have to remind myslelf continuously, because I too often brake too late, or power too soon, or brake while turning, or forget to stay off the pedals for a moment in the turn.

You want to brake while going straight as much as possible (this is key, braking while applying steering input is a recipe for losing control), then, turn into the apex of the corner (and sometimes I will be off the pedals entirely for some time as I turn the vehicle, or applying just the teeniest amount of throttle) and then accelerate through the apex and away.

Another thing I keep in mind (and a mroe experienced RL driver can correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in here) is that the straight-aways are like drag strips with the start line at the apex of the previous corner. That is, the earlier you can apply power on a straight, the higher your top speed at the end of that straight will be, right? So, you want to try to get in position to hit that power as early as you can, either right on or right before the apex.

I think the point I am trying to get across, is that it is good to be cautious and even over-conservative as you approach and enter the turn, because that will give you a better chance at hitting the power as soon as you can on the exit of the corner, which is by far the most important thing to fast lap times. The longer the straight, the more key it is to get on the power as soon as you can (meaning being in position to get on the power as you hit the apex of the turn).

Man, I hope this makes sense, and I hope I'm not making it worse with bad info! I am no expert driver, but I love doing laps in a good game. For some reason in this game, I have a much better time of staying in line with the other cars on the track, staying on the 'proper' line, and kissing the curbs on the apex and the outside curbs on the exit than I can remember in any other game. Why this is? I dunno. I just chalk it up to a superior game, superior physics model, superior vehicle control.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:59 pm

I think there is one caveat to always trying to maximize exit speed of a turn. At the END of a LONG straight, where the next turn does not have a speedy section after it (like a harsh chicane or sharp U-turn), maximize how long you stay at top speed in the long straight leading up to the turn. You might sacrifice perfect line through the slow turn at the end of the straight, but you gain by having kept at top speed longer.

Does this make sense?

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:10 pm

pk500 wrote:Man, my very first race of the night Thursday night was a classic. I get an invite from a DSP room -- thanks, fellas! -- and JamesE is playing host to the Mustang Classic category. The first race is at Road America.

Slumberland and I pull away from the field on the first of five laps. And for the next four laps, Slumber and I must have traded the lead close . . . blah blah blah.
Take care,
PK

What makes it even 1,000,000 times cooler PK, is that there were 3 of us battling for 3rd place the entire race!! Just as you were trading leads with Slumber up front, we had an intense battle for 3rd going on, and there was plenty of bumping and grinding back there, too lemme tell ya. Anyway, it was really fun and intense racing, for the length of the 20 mile race!!!

AWESOME, BABY!

TCrouch · Post by **TCrouch** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:10 am

Whoa...thx for the compliments throughout the course of this thread guys...although it's kind of unwarranted.

Seriously...if you sit back and look at most games, T2 most importantly, you figure out where the speed comes from. In T2 you are SEVERELY punished for overbraking...much moreso than PGR2. You're also equally reamed for braking too late and scrubbing off too much speed. I've never seen a game that places so much emphasis on exit speed from corner to corner.

For the "neophytes" (I love that word

) that don't really get racing games: let me give you this bit of advice that Paul sort of explained earlier:

Follow the automap. Unlike what human nature dictates you should do in a racing game (go FAST!!!!)...go slow. The best way to get faster at a game is not to go balls-out as soon as you crack it open. The absolute BEST way is to go slow, find the braking points, the exit points, learn to work the throttle....THEN you will eventually brake less (and a little later), hit the gas a bit earlier, etc. You will learn to get the nose of the car straight upon corner exit sooner, allowing you to get into the hammer a bit earlier, and carry more corner exit speed. In games like PGR2 and TOCA, corner exit speed is everything. If you're giving up .2 per corner on corner exit, then in an average race you're going to give up probably 3 seconds per lap by doing so. It's a hell of a lot harder to try to go fast, then slow down than it is to go slow, then speed up. Your brain programs in this "speed" that it thinks you should be traveling at. If your lap times are off the pace, you try to overdrive even MORE, and eventually head into this frustrating tailspin of racing mediocrity. If you're off the pace, slow your race down, run your own line, find your groove.

It WILL pay dividends eventually. Going faster and more out of control won't make you a better driver. Learning the track and proper braking/throttle technique will.

Sorry for the lecture. I just honestly think a few guys I've raced lately will really benefit from that little bit of info...

SoMisss2000 · Post by **SoMisss2000** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:15 am

Thanks!! maybe i can apply some of that.

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:25 am

The biggest rush of this game for me is making a clean pass on someone...especially in a corner...without nudging, bumping, etc.....major fun.

I just need to learn not to gas out of a turn to soon, something I did often tongiht...doing this on one turn ruins a race for the most part.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:05 am

Terry, great tips. Keep 'em coming, if you have more!

One thing I have never had the experience of doing, is learning the basic fundamentals of good race driving, I mean really learned them the way I learned the 2-3 in hoops in high school (and how to break it down), or the fundamentals of baseball (like who covers what base when, and who cuts off what throws, the kind of stuff they NEVER get right in video games). If you can believe it, I learned a heck of a lot from that very first Gran Tourismo manual!

I'm purely a 'casual' driver IRL (hey, I live in NYC, so I'm not even driving at all most of the time), and I'm sure there are some fundamental things I just don't know. Say I'm shooting free throws; I still hear my coach's voice bellowing in my head about using my legs. Or even if I'm just having a game of catch with someone, I still hear my baseball coach trying to teach me how to pitch with his "drop and driiiiive, son, drop and driiiive." But in racing games, I have no such deeply ingrained 'mantras' that help keep me grounded in the fundamentals.

So, any really simple distillations, or even the kinds of things you say to yourself when driving, may be very helpful to me. Of course nothing will help me with my problem of driving off the tarmac when feeling the pressure from behind.

Digital Sportspage

A TOCA 2 classic

A TOCA 2 classic

Re: A TOCA 2 classic