FANTASTIC Colin McRae Rally 3 news for Xbox owners!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 12:28 am

Xbox owners who love rallying, rejoice! Colin McRae Rally 3 will be released first for the Xbox, on Dec. 10, 2002, according to Codemasters.
 
 The PS2 version will be released in February 2003, according to Codemasters.
 
 I knew there were good reasons why I sold my PS2 and bought an Xbox in June. This is yet another one!
 
 YEE-HAH! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:14 pm

All I can say is SWEET!!!
 
 Although PK you are in the doghouse with my wife, for getting me addicted to rally games.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:36 pm

My apologies to the Mrs. -- sort of. There are worse things to which you can be addicted! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Out,
 PK

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 7:26 pm

Great point PK!!!!

Wrekcut1 · Post by **Wrekcut1** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:56 pm

Just out of curiousity, why do you guys find these games so fun? I really have a hard time getting into racing games. I think the last racing game I had a good time with was Test Drive Lemans on the Dreamcast, but before that I can´t really think of a racing game that made me want to play it alot.
 
 Again, I´m not picking at you guys, just curious at what I am missing when I play them.
 
 Tuck

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:01 pm

Wrek:
 
 Welcome aboard. Thanks for the post. Hope you stick around!
 
 Why do I love racing games? Many, many reasons.
 
 1. I love racing. I´m one of those guys who played with toy race cars constantly as a kid and dreamed of being Johnny Rutherford or A.J. Foyt as a kid.
 
 2. I work in racing now.
 
 3. Variety. There are so many different types of racing games. Stock cars, touring cars, F1, Indy-style cars, rallying, motocross, GP motorcycles, arcade racers and so on. No other sports game genre has so much variety. I love football, but you have three choices: NFL or college sim or NFL arcade game.
 
 4. Purity of competition. Racing is a team sport in the pits, but it´s a solitary sport in the cockpit. Sure, a bad car or setup hurts a driver. But more often than not, success or failure relies solely on the driver. You can´t blame the offensive line, the refs, bad ice, etc.
 
 5. Fulfilling fantasies. No, this isn´t a wet dream story. But I think we´ve all dreamed about being a professional driver at least once, maybe while ripping through a country road or blasting away from someone at a traffic light or dicing in and out of traffic on the freeway. Racing games let us fulfill those fantasies in the virtual world.
 
 Good question, dude. Stick around here!
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 02-11-2002 19:03 ]

Wrekcut1 · Post by **Wrekcut1** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:11 pm

I think one thing that turns me off the most about some racing games is that the computer is perfect. It just seems like the cpu never makes mistakes and so if I screw up on a turn. I´m pretty much out of the race. I will not claim to be an expert or even know alot about racing, but I have seen a few races and you do see some people screw up and still catch up by the end of the race. Maybe its just me.
 
 Tuck

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:48 pm

No, Wrek, you´re absolutely right. There are many racing games with lousy racing AI that makes races unrealistic and frustrating for human drivers.
 
 But there are some good new and recent titles with strong racing AI, such as Moto GP (Xbox), Sega GT (Xbox), Test Drive Le Mans (DC), Jarrett & Labonte Stock Car Racing (PSX), NASCAR Heat 2002 (Xbox and PS2) and World of Outlaws (PS2), to name a few.
 
 Rallying games primarily consist of a driver alone on the course, racing the clock and the challenges of the course. Maybe you should try some of those, as you don´t have to worry about dopey opponent AI. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

grtwhtsk · Post by **grtwhtsk** » Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:06 pm

That is great news! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 GreatWhite

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:27 pm

And of course we have to forgive PK for being excited about the IRL. *sigh*.
 
 CART Forever (or until it gets shut down) <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:04 pm

Randy:
 
 Excited? Hell, Tony George signs my pay check, so it´s more than excitement. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Speaking of excitement, you must be stoked that Swiss superstar Joel Camathias is bringing his huge following, talent -- and checkbook -- to CART in 2003. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Meanwhile, the IRL is slumming with Michael Andretti, Dario Franchitti, Tony Kanaan, Scott Dixon, Buddy Lazier, Eddie Cheever Jr., Sam Hornish Jr., Al Unser Jr., Tomas Scheckter, Kenny Brack, Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 04-12-2002 09:05 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:28 am

Guys go from CART in one of two directions. Up and budding drivers with the hot hand go to F1. Veterans who want big salaries and cushy retirements go to the IRL. Whatcha gonna do?
 
 CART is still the best open wheel racing series there is....and even the ones like Andretti & Co that departed for the IRL said it was strictly a business decision but that they are leaving their heart with CART. Wonder why?
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:21 pm

>>>Veterans who want big salaries and cushy retirements go to the IRL. Whatcha gonna do?<<<
 
 Oh, that´s a ridiculous statement, and you know it. If you actually believe that, you´re drinking the Pook-Aid.
 
 Scott Dixon -- yep, he´s near retirement. Same with Helio Castroneves. Tony Kanaan, Alex Barron, Buddy Rice and Felipe Giaffone -- past ass-kickers in Toyota Atlantic and Indy Lights, part of the vaunted CART ladder series -- also are in the IRL.
 
 And CART is doing such a wonderful job bringing the drivers from its ladder series to CART. Where are most of the Indy Lights drivers from recent years running? The IRL. And what about Dan Wheldon? One of the brightest young talents in open wheel in the last few years, kicking ass in Toyota Atlantic and Lights. Where is he now? The IRL.
 
 And why didn´t someone from CART snap up Tomas Scheckter after he left Cheever? What, does Scheckter suck, too? Or is he close to retirement at 22?
 
 Randy, you´re a CART lover and a road-racing aficionado. You don´t like oval racing that much. We know that. But like most CARTisans, you´re in complete denial and trotting out the same mistruths about the IRL that Chris Pook has spewed for the last two years and that have been recycled by the shrinking cadre of pro-CART journalists.
 
 That´s OK. You can enjoy your spec series in 2003 with minimal lead changes, while I´ll enjoy most of the biggest names in North American open-wheel racing duking it out in three different chassis and engines. The IRL had as many lead changes and passes in one race in 2002 as CART did in the first half of its season. There was one on-track pass for the lead between the start of the season and Milwaukee. It was at Motegi, I believe.
 
 It´s funny: Both Helio and Gil both said their "hearts were in road racing" after leaving for the IRL after 2001. But you hear none of that from them after the breathtaking racing that was the IRL in 2002. I know Helio would love to go F1 -- what driver with a road-racing background wouldn´t? -- but I never heard him say once that he wanted to return to CART once he was exposed to great IRL racing.
 
 Racers are racers -- they want to pass other cars and go wheel to wheel with other drivers. They don´t want to play follow-the-leader and simply drive the car, which is the case in most CART races. They also don´t want to be hampered by stupid aero devices -- the Handford -- and insane pit window rules. They want to race, period. Hell, even Michael Andretti was quoted by CART cheerleader Gordon Kirby as saying it´s "impossible to pass" in CART in an Andretti CART career retrospective published in a recent issue of Autosport.
 
 Something tells me that the latest wave of CART refugees will sing the same praises of the IRL as Helio and Gil after the 2003 season.
 
 And you claim that many of these refugees left CART as a business decision. Yes, that´s true. And what´s wrong with that? Racing is a business, you know that. Michael Andretti wants to race in a series that will keep his employees working and paid. Same with Roger Penske, Mo Nunn and Chip Ganassi.
 
 All four of those guys know a little about racing, about business and about competition. And they´re all in the IRL.
 
 What does that tell you?
 
 Trust me, money fuels nearly every racing decision. What was the main reason that Brack -- whom CARTisans had no trouble adopting as their own even though he made his name in the "evil" IRL -- left the IRL for Ganassi after 1999? Money. Ganassi pays way more than the notoriously thrifty Foyt. Sure, Kenny wanted some road racing. But he´s also returning to the IRL in 2003, so road racing isn´t the be-all and end-all for him.
 
 Another example of how racers follow the color of money: Tony Stewart would return to open-wheel racing in a second if he could earn as much money as he does in Cup. Do you think he likes the NASCAR scene? I know he doesn´t. In fact, he raced in the Turkey Night midget race on Thanksgiving at Irwindale, Calif., and told the fans there that it was "nice to get away from the taxicabs for a while and get into a real race car." True story.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 08:49 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:57 pm

Keeping in mind that we won´t get an IRL employee in the pay of Tony George to say anything bad about the IRL. Not your fault...but obviously you can´t go around saying anything but positive stuff about the IRL if you want to keep your job....
 
 Re the drivers. I should have added -- near retirement, not wanted in F1, and needing the money that´s now going towards the IRL, courtesy of the 500 (surely even the biggest IRL fan will not argue that the other venues the IRL races at have had any serious role in making the IRL successful. It´s all about the Indy 500 -- -always has been, always will be).
 
 Regarding CART. They´ve made so many mistakes in the past two years it´s not funny. They tried to be different than the IRL, yet the same. They tried to make peace with the speedway, and the speedway wanted no part of peace with them. The minute drivers started racing at Indy in May, the countdown timer to a major defection was started in CART. Again, it´s the 500...not either series.
 
 >> Randy, you´re a CART lover and a road-racing aficionado. You don´t like oval racing that much>>
 
 Actually some of the best races I´ve ever seen were ovals, but to have ovals and nothing but ovals, where the only things that truly matter happen in the last 15 minutes of the race, well, I´m not all that interested in seeing that be the ONLY kind of race in the series.
 
 >>. We know that. But like most CARTisans, you´re in complete denial and trotting out the same mistruths about the IRL that Chris Pook has spewed for the last two years and that have been recycled by the shrinking cadre of pro-CART journalists. >>
 
 Nope. I´m not in denial about CART. They are in serious trouble...some of it is their own doing, and some of it was stuff that was beyond their control. Either way, the IRL is winning -- not because they´ve sold well at their non-Indy events or because they´ve gotten huge TV ratings, but simply because the 500 has regained a lot of lost prestige, and the sponsors and drivers are now going there to race at Indy. You know and I know that without the 500, there is no IRL.
 
 >> That´s OK. You can enjoy your spec series in 2003 with minimal lead changes,>>
 
 Lead changes which require almost no skill and happen a zillion times in the race are barely worth mentioning. How many "passes for the lead" do you see on highlight reels within the first 3/4ths of the race on an oval? None. They are routine and boring.
 
 >> The IRL had as many lead changes and passes in one race in 2002 as CART did in the first half of its season. >>
 
 See above.
 
 >> Racers are racers -- they want to pass other cars and drive hard. They don´t want to play follow-the-leader and simply drive the car, which is the case in most CART races. >>
 
 A lot of that is poor track design. A lot of these street courses suffer from a lack of good passing opportunities. Also, the aero packages need to be right for drafting. Consider even oval racing where the aero isn´t right. You don´t get much passing. Introduce the a spoiler and you get Michigan with Montoya and Andretti. Kind of artificial, but entertaining too. Aero is everything in racing. If you have drafting opportunities and outbraking opportunities, you´ll get passing. F1 is suffering from that BIGTIME and are finally doing something about it.
 
 >> They also don´t want to be hampered by stupid aero devices -- the Handford -- and insane pit window rules. They want to race, period. >>
 
 Please....let´s at least be honest and admit that the cars in the IRL are engineered to create a really good tow, and since all they do is ovals, there´s no need for a part-time device.
 
 >>Something tells me that the latest wave of CART refugees will sing the same praises of the IRL after the 2003 season. >>
 
 Like any driver with half a brain is going to trash the series they are in and being paid by sponsors to talk nice about...
 
 >> What does that tell you?
 
 That the Indy 500 is bigger than anything else in North American open-wheel racing. None of the IRL events besides Indy can touch CART races in attendance.
 
 As I said, I´m not in denial about CART. They are on life support at this point, and they have themselves to blame for a fair % of it. At the same time, the quality of the on-track product is more varied and interesting to watch than the meaningless and endless passes in IRL races. I´ll watch IRL races this next season...generally tuning in about 15 minutes from the end of it, where I can see people actually take a few risks to win, whereas the first most of the race is pretty darned boring.
 
 Oh well, there´s always British Touring Cars <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Randy

Neckthai · Post by **Neckthai** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:02 pm

Don´t you just hate it when someone pulls PK string... can´t get him calmed down for days. Why oh why did someone wake the IRL´s sleeping PR giant?
 
 Just kidding, PK. Can´t we agree to disagree about the CART/IRL split? Let´s just smokem peace pipe and talk about racing games?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:17 pm

Randy:
 
 I could get into a point-by-point rebuttal of your reply, but that would just start a needless flame war.
 
 You can say you like ovals all you want, but it just seeps through your post that you don´t care for oval racing. After all, all passes except for the decisive pass for the lead are boring, right? So a CART race with one on-track pass for the lead is more exciting than an IRL race with possibly 20 on-track passes for the lead, at various times?
 
 And you dismiss the IRL cars and slipstreaming races as low-tech and boring, respectively, yet the artificial Handford device creates "entertaining" races? Uh, you can´t have it both ways, friend.
 
 To each their own ...
 
 Sure, I work for the IRL. And it´s a great series, but not perfect. But right now it has the best blend of technology, racing and entertainment of any series in the world. And those are all components of what makes a series exciting.
 
 Look at F1 -- great technology but pretty low on the racing and entertainment scale. Same with CART, at least in 2002. The spec CART Lola-Cosworth cars of 2003 won´t be that high-tech. Maybe the positive trade-off will be better racing and more entertainment. NASCAR is entertaining and has decent racing but little technology.
 
 I guess the WRC or the DTM would be the closest series to the IRL in terms of the triple crown of technology, racing and entertainment. The BTCC is good, but the cars aren´t nearly as high-tech as the DTM.
 
 And as for the Indy 500 being the marquee event of the IRL, yes. What´s the marquee event of CART? The U.S. 500 and season ender at California don´t fit that bill. Face it, CART is the only major series in North America without a crown jewel event, and that drives CARTisans nuts. Long Beach comes closest, but it´s a support race compared to the Indy 500, Daytona 500, Rolex 24 or even the Knoxville Nationals, for that matter.
 
 Take care,
 PK
 
 [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 09:22 ] [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 10:41 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:29 pm

Screw the "peace on earth" sh*t, Neck, because I know you agree with me. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm

OK, you want a flame war, you got it.
 
 >>>You _could_ but then we´d all know it was PR spin <grin><<<
 
 And all of your "facts" are nothing but the truth. Randy, I´ve worked daily in motorsports for more than 10 years and in open-wheel racing for five years. I´ve forgotten more about the inner workings, business and politics of the sport than you know. I´m not saying all my statements are fact, but for you to dismiss them as spin is arrogant as hell and incorrect. I happen to know what I´m talking about because I´m more than an anorak. OK, I´ve never been to Skip Barber Driving School, but I have worked daily in major league racing since 1993 and covered the sport as a daily newspaper reporter from 1988-93. So it irks me just a bit that you infer that my knowledge is nothing but "spin." Meanwhile, CARTisans can spew their information, and it´s the truth. But an IRL supporter and employee gives information, and it´s "spin." Thanks for your objectivity.
 
 >>>Road/Street course passes, regardless of where they happen in the field, are more exciting and nailbiting. I´ll take one terrific outbraking pass for 10th place over 10 passes for the lead in an oval race. Nonetheless, I enjoy the last several laps of oval races, of any sport. It´s just the 2 hour leadup of meaningless passes that I find to be a snoozer.<<<
 
 Fine. I like road racing, and the passes are exciting and require great skill. But you´re trying to infer that a three-wide pass at 220 mph in traffic requires little skill? Try it sometime.
 
 >>>CART dumped a lot of ovals because people wouldn´t pay to see them. Most oval-meisters in the US have already gone to NASCAR. What is the IRL´s plan to compete with NASCAR for the oval spectator?<<<
 
 Nothing can compete now with NASCAR. It´s a phenomenon. But 50,000-plus crowds at Kansas, Kentucky, Chicago, both Texas races, Richmond and Indy indicate that someone in America is willing to watch the IRL. And before you counter that some of those tracks require an IRL purchase as part of a season ticket, remember than no one is forcing those ticket buyers to show up. But they did. The fact is, people didn´t want to see boring, no-pass CART oval shows.
 
 >>>Anytime you have Montoya and Schumacher driving side by side through several corners, inches apart, in spite of hard braking, induced oversteer, etc, is QUITE exciting. That´s racing on the edge.<<<
 
 Agreed. Too bad it doesn´t happen more often.
 
 >>>I defy anyone to say that a race on the runways at Cleveland isn´t exciting! Or Da Matta´s brave but futile attempt to pass for first at Mid-Ohio.<<<
 
 Wow. That´s two instances you cited from the 2002 season. You´re making my point quite well, thank you. And regarding Cleveland, remember the 50,000 announced attendance? Well, a reporter counted seats at the track and came up with 21,000. He presented that to an IMG organizer, who went on record as a not-for-attribution source and admitted that the attendance for the Cleveland race was 25,000 tops, including suites and paddock. So yes, CART does draw well in Canada, Australia and Mexico, but its attendance numbers for American races -- other than Long Beach -- are inflated.
 
 >>>I honestly never thought it needed one.<<<
 
 Yeah, college basketball doesn´t need the NCAA Tournament. The NFL doesn´t need the Super Bowl. Baseball would be the same without the World Series. Golf could ditch the majors, and people still would flock to their TVs to watch the Greater Hartford Open. Come on, man, who are you kidding?
 
 >>>If you think the Knoxville Nationals draw a bigger TV and paid attendance audience than Long Beach, I´d like to see some proof.<<<
 
 I´m almost certain that if Knoxville and Long Beach aired in the similar time slot on the same network that the ratings would be very similar, especially next year when CART has very little marquee and name value among its drivers to the non-CART fan. Too bad Long Beach isn´t on Speed, then we could check. As for attendance, Knoxville would fill as many seats as it could build. Sure, WoO didn´t work at Bristol, but Tennessee is not the spirtual home of sprint-car racing like Iowa and Knoxville.
 
 I´m done on this topic. Fire away.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 11:01 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:00 pm

Randy:
 
 I´m not sure what happened to your post, as I replied in a separate reply, yet it said I edited your post. Odd. Probably my error, as your post raised the red mist. Sorry. No matter, I guess, since you and are probably are the only ones reading this.
 
 Your comments to which I´m responding are in >>><<<.
 
 OK, you want a flame war, you got it.
 
 >>>You _could_ but then we´d all know it was PR spin <grin><<<
 
 And all of your "facts" are nothing but the truth. Randy, I´ve worked daily in motorsports for more than 10 years and in open-wheel racing for five years. I´ve forgotten more about the inner workings, business and politics of the sport than you know. I´m not saying all my statements are fact, but for you to dismiss them as spin is arrogant as hell and incorrect. I happen to know what I´m talking about because I´m more than an anorak. OK, I´ve never been to Skip Barber Driving School, but I have worked daily in major league racing since 1993 and covered the sport as a daily newspaper reporter from 1988-93. So it irks me just a bit that you infer that my knowledge is nothing but "spin." Meanwhile, CARTisans can spew their information, and it´s the truth. But an IRL supporter and employee gives information, and it´s "spin." Thanks for your objectivity.
 
 >>>Road/Street course passes, regardless of where they happen in the field, are more exciting and nailbiting. I´ll take one terrific outbraking pass for 10th place over 10 passes for the lead in an oval race. Nonetheless, I enjoy the last several laps of oval races, of any sport. It´s just the 2 hour leadup of meaningless passes that I find to be a snoozer.<<<
 
 Fine. I like road racing, and the passes are exciting and require great skill. But you´re trying to infer that a three-wide pass at 220 mph in traffic requires little skill? Try it sometime.
 
 >>>CART dumped a lot of ovals because people wouldn´t pay to see them. Most oval-meisters in the US have already gone to NASCAR. What is the IRL´s plan to compete with NASCAR for the oval spectator?<<<
 
 Nothing can compete now with NASCAR. It´s a phenomenon. But 50,000-plus crowds at Kansas, Kentucky, Chicago, both Texas races, Richmond and Indy indicate that someone in America is willing to watch the IRL. And before you counter that some of those tracks require an IRL purchase as part of a season ticket, remember than no one is forcing those ticket buyers to show up. But they did. The fact is, people didn´t want to see boring, no-pass CART oval shows.
 
 >>>Anytime you have Montoya and Schumacher driving side by side through several corners, inches apart, in spite of hard braking, induced oversteer, etc, is QUITE exciting. That´s racing on the edge.<<<
 
 Agreed. Too bad it doesn´t happen more often.
 
 >>>I defy anyone to say that a race on the runways at Cleveland isn´t exciting! Or Da Matta´s brave but futile attempt to pass for first at Mid-Ohio.<<<
 
 Wow. That´s two instances you cited from the 2002 season. You´re making my point quite well, thank you. And regarding Cleveland, remember the 50,000 announced attendance? Well, a reporter counted seats at the track and came up with 21,000. He presented that to an IMG organizer, who went on record as a not-for-attribution source and admitted that the attendance for the Cleveland race was 25,000 tops, including suites and paddock. So yes, CART does draw well in Canada, Australia and Mexico, but its attendance numbers for American races -- other than Long Beach -- are inflated.
 
 >>>I honestly never thought it needed one.<<<
 
 Yeah, college basketball doesn´t need the NCAA Tournament. The NFL doesn´t need the Super Bowl. Baseball would be the same without the World Series. Golf could ditch the majors, and people still would flock to their TVs to watch the Greater Hartford Open. Come on, man, who are you kidding?
 
 >>>If you think the Knoxville Nationals draw a bigger TV and paid attendance audience than Long Beach, I´d like to see some proof.<<<
 
 I´m almost certain that if Knoxville and Long Beach aired in the similar time slot on the same network that the ratings would be very similar, especially next year when CART has very little marquee and name value among its drivers to the non-CART fan. Too bad Long Beach isn´t on Speed, then we could check. As for attendance, Knoxville would fill as many seats as it could build. Sure, WoO didn´t work at Bristol, but Tennessee is not the spirtual home of sprint-car racing like Iowa and Knoxville.
 
 I´m done on this topic. Fire away.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 11:21 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:33 pm

>> And all of your "facts" are nothing but the truth.>>
 
 If I´m wrong on any ´fact´ I welcome the evidence that I´m wrong.
 
 > Randy, I´ve worked daily in motorsports for more than 10 years and in open-wheel racing for five years. I´ve forgotten more about the inner workings, business and politics of the sport than you know. >
 
 I don´t doubt it. However, no one here will expect you to agree with ANYTHING negative about the IRL, true or not, simply because you don´t have the freedom to express your disagreement or discontentment. Correct me if I´m wrong. I´m not insulting what you KNOW. I´m pointing out that there may be things you can not say, and things you are expected to say.
 
 >> , but for you to dismiss them as spin is arrogant as hell and incorrect. >>
 
 Didn´t mean to dismiss them as spin. Sorry for doing that. I just meant to imply that any agreement with me regarding problems with the IRL have got to be filtered through the "I work for ´em" filter.
 
 >> So it irks me just a bit that you infer that my knowledge is nothing but "spin." >>
 
 Again, not what you KNOW, but what you´re allowed to SAY
 
 >> Fine. I like road racing, and the passes are exciting and require great skill. But you´re trying to infer that a three-wide pass at 220 mph in traffic requires little skill? Try it sometime. >>
 
 RELATIVELY little skill compared to the difficulty of your typical road course out-braking pass. RELATIVE being the optimal word. One can say that a short dump off to a running back requires little skill, but that´s RELATIVE to throwing a precise 30 yard bullet threading double coverage!
 
 << Nothing can compete now with NASCAR. It´s a phenomenon. But 50,000-plus crowds at Kansas, Kentucky, Chicago, both Texas races, Richmond and Indy indicate that someone in America is willing to watch the IRL. And before you counter that some of those tracks require an IRL purchase as part of a season ticket, remember than no one is forcing those ticket buyers to show up. But they did. >>
 
 It doesn´t change that they were being FORCED to buy a ticket that they might or might not buy if they didn´t have to in order to see NASCAR. No one will truly be able to judge the measure of success/attendance at the races unless the product has to stand on its own two legs. And many people will gladly go to just about any live event they already have tickets for. Lots of people go see concerts and attend events because they are events and they are free (and in this case, since you have to have bought the IRL ticket to get the NASCAR ticket, it effectively makes the IRL ticket ´free´). If the IRL is so confident in its product, untie it from NASCAR and let´s let the market decide. All we are saying is give the market a chance <G>
 
 >> The fact is, people didn´t want to see boring, no-pass CART oval shows. >>
 
 Is that a fact? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 >> Wow. That´s two instances you cited from the 2002 season. >>
 
 You want me to fire up the TiVo and make an itemized list? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 >> but its attendance numbers for American races -- other than Long Beach -- are inflated. >>
 
 I went to Laguna Seca every year since 1995. Packed.
 
 >> Yeah, college basketball doesn´t need the NCAA Tournament. The NFL doesn´t need the Super Bowl. Baseball would be the same without the World Series. Golf could ditch the majors, and people still would flock to their TVs to watch the Greater Hartford Open. Come on, man, who are you kidding? >>
 
 No one. I´m being truthful.....considering that the points are the same, I´ve always thought it was kinda silly for motorsports. F1´s ´signature´ event would probably be Monaco, but it´s always a parade and the drivers hate it. In addition the points are the same. You want to talk about comparing this to championship football or baseball? I don´t see how you can.
 
 << I´m almost certain that if Knoxville and Long Beach aired in the similar time slot on the same network that the ratings would be very similar, especially next year when CART has very little marquee and name value among its drivers to the non-CART fan. >>
 
 You´re kinda backpedaling here. Lots of IF´s ...just acknowledge whether it is or isn´t and supply something to back it up.
 
 >> I´m done on this topic. Fire away.
 
 Oh, I doubt you´re truly done <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:58 pm

You´re right: I´m not done. Because I don´t stand idle when people distort the reality of my situation.
 
 >>>I don´t doubt it. However, no one here will expect you to agree with ANYTHING negative about the IRL, true or not, simply because you don´t have the freedom to express your disagreement or discontentment. Correct me if I´m wrong. I´m not insulting what you KNOW. I´m pointing out that there may be things you can not say, and things you are expected to say.<<<
 
 Unless people in here are sending my posts to IRL headquarters and I´m not aware of it, I´m don´t play politics in a gaming forum.
 
 I post whatever the hell I want in here. I rip F1 and NASCAR in here, yet my employer plays host to annual F1 and NASCAR races. Think that´s a smart political move? Think my employer puts a muzzle on my hobbies? DSP has some nice reach, but I don´t think the IRL/IMS brass has ever heard of it, let alone read it.
 
 So again, writing me off as some shill is arrogant and wrong.
 
 And as far as finding which of your facts are wrong, well, there´s one problem: Things that you interpret as fact often are your opinion, such as the quality of racing at Cleveland and Mid-Ohio and the boredom of passing early in oval races. You consider those facts, while they´re merely opinions.
 
 >>>If the IRL is so confident in its product, untie it from NASCAR and let´s let the market decide. All we are saying is give the market a chance<<<
 
 The IRL shouldn´t try to align itself a bit with the biggest sports phenomenon in America? That´s wise marketing. Remember, CART paired with the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series at Homestead for two years, and the trucks outdrew CART both times. The IRL has outdrawn the trucks every time we have run together, at Disney, Kansas and numerous times at Texas. I´m sure you consider that "spin," but I was at all of the IRL-truck races in question, and my eyes don´t lie. I also know reporters and officials who were at the CART-truck shows at Homestead, so I guess they all were lying, too.
 
 >>>Is that a fact?<<<
 
 If it´s not, then why is CART running away from ovals faster than Democrats distanced themselves from Al Gore in January 2001?
 
 Finally, fire up your TiVo and give me an itemized list of passes. I´m sure they were all good, as road-course passes are often a thing of beauty, regardless of when they occur during races. Still, I could supply you 10 times as many passes from IRL races. Of course, many would be dull because they occurred on ovals outside of the final 10 laps, right?
 
 >>>I´m being truthful.....considering that the points are the same<<<
 
 Now you´re really getting daft. Do birdies count as two strokes off the scorecard at Augusta? Do three-pointers count as four points in the NCAA Final? Touchdowns count as 10 points in the Super Bowl? Nearly every sport has a marquee event, something that captures the attention of the media, general public and sponsors more than any other. Hell, even Miller and Pioneer recognize that in their release announcing Brack racing with Rahal in the IRL, announced today.
 
 “We’re proud to have this incredibly talented group of racing professionals sporting the Pioneer red logo on their vehicles and racing suits this year,” said Ed Sachs, executive vice president of Mobile Entertainment for Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. “As the leading provider of in-car audio and video technology, our motorsports sponsorships expose the Pioneer brand to millions of consumers through television and on-site activities. It also gives us a great opportunity to establish retail promotions for world-renowned events like the Indy 500.”
 
 Said Steve Lauletta, director of Event and Sports Marketing at Miller Brewing Company: “Having Kenny Brack as part of the program is a bonus. We have worked with Kenny before, and he does a great job both on and off the track. With his being a former Indianapolis 500 champion, we are really looking forward to making it ‘Miller Time’ in May at the Speedway, as well as the rest of the season.”
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 12:16 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:39 pm

Well, first of all, I again want to apologize to you for any appearance of insulting you. If you can truly speak your mind, even when it´s not delightful to the IRL, that´s indeed nice news.
 
 I never claimed everything I said was ´fact´ and I freely admit to having an opinion.
 
 Unfortunately for CART, the magnetism of the Indy 500 has allowed the IRL to weather the lean years and win the war. Why be so angry? Your side has won at least for the time being. You should be enjoying yourself rather than throwing stones at CART.
 
 I hope CART pulls through this difficult time and continues to offer an open-wheel alternative to the all-ovals-all-the-time trend here in the US.
 
 Nonetheless, you seem to be implying that I am somehow lying to you about whether or not I feel it´s important to have a racing "Super Bowl". I consider the Indy 500 to continue to be that Super Bowl. I liked the situation where CART´s best took on the IRL´s best and any other comers every May. Too bad more NASCAR boys don´t show up at Indy, and it would be cool to see some F1 folks there too. It´s a spectacle and it would be cool to have it be the Super Bowl of ALL racing series´, not just the IRL´s premiere event.
 
 But I wasn´t talking about touchdowns being more than 7 points, so please don´t heap insults on me by calling me ´daft´. What I mean is that WINNING the Super Bowl makes you the world champ for the season. Winning the World Series means you are world champ for the season. Does winning Daytona equate to winning the Winston Cup? Does winning the Indy 500 mean you won the season championship and have bragging rights as the series champ? No. THAT is all I´m saying. There´s a lot of prestige to winning Daytona and Indy. However, from the standpoint of the championship, the points, it´s just another race. The series championship means more to me than any one race because it means you didn´t just have a good day, but a great season. And also because motorsports is such that even the best driver can retire because of a $2 part failure on any given day.
 
 So yeah they are fabulous events, but in the case of Daytona, it´s just the kick-off to the season, and doesn´t guarantee you´ll be smiling at the end of the season.
 
 Randy
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:50 pm

Randy:
 
 Fair enough, especially your point about some sports´ marquee events being the championship game. Good point.
 
 But does winning at Augusta make someone the premier player of the year on the PGA Tour? Does winning the Kentucky Derby automatically make that horse the best 3-year-old of the season?
 
 No. But people who aren´t fans of golf and horse racing, respectively, follow those events and sometimes even remember who won them at the end of the year. That´s my point about marquee events -- they transcend the sport, draw in new fans and attract corporate support.
 
 That´s why they´re important. And in regards to North American racing, is there anything more sweet than having your face immortalized in bas relief forever on the Borg-Warner Trophy? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Again, take Tony Stewart for example. He´s won the USAC Triple Crown. He´s won the IRL championship. He´s won the Winston Cup. He´ll win Daytona some day. But even he admits that his career won´t be complete until he wins the Indianapolis 500.
 
 That certainly illustrates that Indy isn´t just another show. You know that; I know that. It also illustrates the power of a marquee event and how important it is to any sport.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 14:54 ]

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:56 pm

Wow and this started off as a Colin McRae 3 thread. If I may I would like to share my opinion on the IRL/CART fiasco.
 
 Both of you make valid points. It doesn´t mean a whole lot today because CART and The IRL have gone in different directions.
 
 Me personally I don´t like ovals and so I don´t watch Nascar or The IRL. I enjoy road course racing, whether it´s World Rally, F1, Touring Cars, FIM Superbikes.
 
 IMHO I think CART is now going in a direction thanks to Chris Pook that will improve over time and bring the Series back stronger than ever.
 
 Infortunately it will be mostly Overseas. I think CART has given up on the US market and trying to compete with Nascar and The IRL. Their expansion and gains will be in Mexico and Europe. Witnessed by one of the largest racing crowds ever in Mexico over 350,000 to watch the last CART event.
 
 Bernie Eccelstone now views CART as an ally rather than the enemy in CART´s heyday. So with F1 having money problems Bernie is helping his friend Pook get back into hallowed Formula 1 racing tracks. Spa, Estoril, Brands Hatch are all on the potential list for next year.
 
 Your also seeing more F1 drivers going to CART to hone their skills in CART before being considered to another stab at F1. Alex Yooung and Justin Wilson are a few.
 
 CART is not dead yet infact CART may surprise many in the next few years, just don´t expect to see CART trying win over American Racing Fans.
 
 CART has been picked as Formula 1´s feeder series so says Bernie Eccelstone. And that´s why CART will be around for years to come and as a racing fan I love it.
 
 There are some good reads if any are interested:
 
 http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=20&id=4328
 
 http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=20&id=4306

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:11 pm

Rodster:
 
 All very good points. CART´s road and street races are well attended.
 
 It will be interesting to see how the relationship between Bernie and CART shakes out. It´s a perilous line for Bernie to walk because if CART changes its regulations -- which doesn´t require working around the ponderous Concorde Agreement like in F1 -- then its road course shows could become quite a spectacle again. And that would put F1 in a bad light, especially if CART runs a handful of road courses in Europe.
 
 Very interesting times in open-wheel racing worldwide, for sure. NASCAR may be booming financially, but it´s not as much fun on or off the track as open wheel. I think you, Randy and I can agree on that.
 
 Bottom line: We all love open-wheel racing, and that´s a common bond. We´re brethren in that regard, bitching at each other and fighting each other all the way. But we do share that common bond. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 By the way, the WRC is my second-favorite form of racing in the world behind the IRL. So I´m not an oval-only guy, by any regard. I´m also up half the night on the second weekend of every June, listening to Radio Autosport from Le Mans or watching the 24 Hours on Speed. There are a handful of events I must witness first-hand, as a spectator, in no order:
 
 1. An F1 race at Spa. Dream on, it looks like now.
 2. A WRC stage in either Finland, Sweden or Wales.
 3. 24 Hours of Le Mans.
 4. Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch.
 5. Bathurst 1000 in Australia.
 6. Either Marlboro Masters F3 at Zandvoort or the Macau Grand Prix F3 race.
 7. The Goodwood Festival of Speed. In fact, this might be at the top of the list.
 8. The Knoxville Nationals.
 
 And, oh, what I wouldn´t give to see the WRC come to the U.S. That would be nirvana.
 
 Randy and Rod, what are your dream events to witness live?
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 16:17 ]