ONLINE Gaming Woe´s : nfl2k3 : gamespot article

Templehorn · Post by **Templehorn** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:05 pm

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/a ... 202/4.html
 
 Dave Toole
 Senior Producer
 
 Recently Played: Super Mario Sunshine
 Now Playing: Unreal Tournament 2003 Demo
 Most Wanted: Star Fox Adventures
 
 
 
 Rant and Rave #1
 
 Typically, we try to focus these GameSpotting articles on one major topic. But as I sit here compelled to write, I find that there are all kinds of little things I need to share my thoughts on, whether it´s the latest industry gossip, a recent gaming experience, or something related to GameSpot itself. So I´m going to do just that. And depending on the response, who knows, maybe you´ll see a Rant and Rave #2 sometime. So, in the first and possibly last installment of Rant and Rave, I am going to talk about my thoughts on Xbox Live, a major NFL 2K3 online problem, and the latest Rare rumor.
 
 Xbox Live
 When Xbox Live was first announced, it seemed like everyone was impressed with what Microsoft had planned. But I´m still not. The issue I have with it isn´t about the technology or the fact that it´s a closed network for which users will have to pay a yearly subscription. My problem with it is that it forces you to use voice as the means of communication. I´m afraid I´m going to keep finding myself muting just about every person I play against in an online game on the Xbox. I´m afraid I´m going to have to do this because of the fact that there are so many people out there who want to do nothing more than be a nuisance. At the same time, I´m also afraid that people will simply feel weird about talking online to strangers and will rarely ever speak. If either of these situations becomes the case, the whole Xbox Live experience may be less satisfying than what you might be expecting.
 
 
 
 To put it bluntly, I think Microsoft´s decision to go with voice communication was bad and could ultimately hurt Xbox Live. I still can´t understand why they didn´t make it so developers could choose to use text communication (using a keyboard). Microsoft can give any excuse it wants for this--I won´t accept it, though. There´s nothing wrong with typed communication. Everyone knows how to type these days.
 
 Of course for some, none of this will ever be an issue, as they´ll mainly be playing with people they know, whether with friends from real life or players they met online. But, for the majority of gamers, they will most often be playing against strangers. They will have to take their chances looking for someone to compete against, in hopes that the person will be a good sport.
 
 NFL 2K3 Online--Three and Out
 Recently, fellow GameSpotter Ryan Mac Donald and I were discussing the online functionality of NFL 2K3. At the time I actually hadn´t had the chance to play it online yet and was asking him how his experience with it has been, as far as people quitting out on him when he was up big. He mentioned that not many people had actually quit on him, but instead they would just pause the game and leave it paused in the hopes of him just quitting himself. It turns out that if the game is paused during an online game and you exit out, you register a loss while the other player´s record is unaffected.
 
 
 One little flaw ruining an entire experience. How typical.
 When I finally got a hold of a PS2 network adapter, the first game I tried out was NFL 2K3, and it didn´t take long for me to encounter the same type of people Ryan had referred to. In the very first game I played, I was up by 20 points at halftime. Midway through the third quarter, the person I was playing against decided to pull off the pause-and-leave tactic. Unwilling to concede, I decided that I would just let my PS2 sit there paused, as well. The next morning when I woke up, the game was actually still paused. Ryan had mentioned to me that one of the guys who paused on him kept the game paused for over a day before finally giving up, but I never thought I would see something like that happen to me. Anyhow, I was hoping that when I got home that night, the other person would have given up because I wanted to play someone else in a game. But when I arrived home from work, the game--you guessed it--was still paused. For those keeping score, this was about 20 hours after the game was originally paused, and the guy still had the stamina (or whatever) to keep it paused.
 
 When I checked again about two hours later, he had finally given up. I won. I guess you could say the game went into overtime.
 
 As soon as I saw that the other person had quit, I decided to find someone else to play against. A few minutes later I found myself in a pretty competitive game that was close until the fourth quarter when I scored a touchdown with about a minute to go and was up 41-30 while preparing for my extra-point attempt. At that time, I was appalled to find that the person I was playing against decided to pull the same stunt as the person the night before. He paused the game and left it there in the hopes I would give up. Once again, I refused to concede. I sat my controller down and proceeded to just watch some TV before going to bed. When I woke up in the morning and checked on the game, the other person had already given up and exited the game, allowing me to claim another needlessly hard-fought victory.
 
 When I got home from work that night, I quickly found myself getting back online in the hopes of finding someone who wouldn´t actually pause the game (or quit on me) if he was going to lose. Within a matter of minutes I was in a game playing against my toughest opponent yet. Everything was going well, and at one point I thought I was actually going to make it through the whole game. Key word: thought.With a little over two minutes left in the game, I scored a touchdown to pull ahead 28-24. After my opponent got the ball back, he started to drive the ball on me steadily down the field and was around my 30-yard line with 40 seconds left and no timeouts. At that time, he decided to throw a deep pass into the end zone, where I was fortunate enough to intercept the ball. Right when I intercepted the ball, the person knew he had absolutely no chance of winning and promptly paused the game.
 
 When this happened, I became so frustrated that I didn´t even think about waiting it out. I simply went over to my PS2, turned it off, and vowed to never play another online game of NFL 2K3 again. Who would have ever thought I would somehow play three straight games against players who would just pause the game because they were losing. I blame it on bad luck.
 
 On second thought, maybe I should blame it on the game and on Visual Concepts´ lack of foresight in this important area. Gamers basically figured out a way to abuse NFL 2K3´s negative remarks system the day the PS2 network adapter came out, so I´m scratching my head as to how not even one person from the NFL 2K3 development and QA teams ever discovered this problem. It basically ruined the experience of online play with NFL 2K3 for me. Chalk it up as a learning experience, I guess.
 
 [ This message was edited by: Templehorn on 23-09-2002 15:06 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:46 pm

This guy is a f*cking idiot. Does he ever think that maybe people want to play friends and/or relatives online, or people they´ve met in Forums such as here or Sports Reviewers?
 
 >>>I still can´t understand why they didn´t make it so developers could choose to use text communication<<<
 
 This weasel obviously doesn´t play sports games. How the f*ck are you supposed to type two sentences when the play clock is clicking toward zero or another team is fast-breaking on your ass after you dunked on him?
 
 Jay-zus, and your game hung on you? Hit reset and relog on. What a damn baby.
 
 Foolish ...
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 23-09-2002 15:48 ]

Templehorn · Post by **Templehorn** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:44 pm

ya, it is hard to believe that everyone he played did that puase thing. I never had anyone do that to me yet.

grtwhtsk · Post by **grtwhtsk** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:27 am

For one thing, the voice communicator is great. If someone is obnoxious, mute that person....not a big deal. As PK mentioned, who the heck would want to sit there and type while playing??!! I have not had any problems with the guys I´ve played. There have been no "pausers" in any of my games. I can´t wait until November when there will be a whole lot of people to play. It will be a blast with all the guys from DS and the other Sports Forums! Yes "Probie," I´m calling you out again! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Take care,
 
 GreatWhite

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:20 am

You wanna go, pretty boy? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

grtwhtsk · Post by **grtwhtsk** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:01 am

PK,
 
 "Domi" is ready. Just make sure to keep your voice communicator headset on, as I want to hear you asking me to "stop!" <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Seriously though, I just can´t wait till we are all up and running. It will be a blast. If we could get some leagues organized, that would be great.
 
 Anyway, back to work. Oh PK, you´d better sharpen your skates so you can try and get away. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 Take care,
 
 GreatWhite

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:21 am

I have for a long time had respect and admitration for Digital Sportspage. However, after reading the responses to this ´Rant and Rave´ it is clear that my respect has been misplaced. Before the PS2 Network Adapter was available, I was led to believe, by the Digital Sportspage review and these forums, that perhaps NFL2k3 actually was superior to Madden. Having played them both online, I have discovered, like the ranter and raver, that NFL 2k3 is made unplayable online because of exactly those types of people he mentions. I too was unable to complete a single game online, because of the pausers, not to mention the annoyance of opponents pausing to disrupt my kicking timing and other cheap and petty tactics. The developers of Madden have devised a simple and effective online interface that completely avoids all of these problems, and ultimately the only issue with Madden online is that some people do quit, but that is really all they can do to ruin the experience; they quit, leaving you the ability to play against the computer if you wish until you have a lead (if you happen to be behind when they quit), at which point if you quit, you get the win. In fact, everything about Madden online is so far superior, it makes NFL 2k3 online look like a school project in comparison.
 
 What bothers me, however, is the response to this ´rant and rave´ collumn. To have a forum moderator bust on someone´s researched and honest point of view in such a childish way as pk500 is reprehensible in my view, and reflects badly on these forums as whole. Considering pk does not even own a PS2 by his own admission, how can he criticize the position of a gamer who has actually played PS2 games online? Perhaps there are those who will only play with friends online, but to pretend that only a select few would play strangers online is patently ludicrous. Indeed, the main reason to play online, in my opinion, is to play against other human oponents when one´s friends are not around to play with.
 Further, as for Xbox Live, the keyboard issue is a valid one to discuss; anyone who has played both Madden and NFL2k3 online will realize that in Madden, chatting is done very unobtrusively and effectively, both in the matchup rooms and during the game, with or without a keyboard, while with NFL2k3, there is no keyboard support, and all the problems that were inherent with chatting in the rooms on NFL2k1 persist in this much later version. Certainly for those who wish to use the headset, it would be a useful feature, but I agree with the ranter that denying keyboard use to those who do not wish to be the subjects of the type of immature and childish abuse that is all to prevalent in online gaming (especially younger children who really don´t need that type of verbal abuse from an anonymous person miles away) is a poor design decision, and may in fact turn off many potential Xbox Livers, particularly those parents who buy the consoles and games for their kids.
 I must reiterate my disappointment in the level of response to this column by a MODERATOR of these boards. It´s too bad that after a successful visual upgrade of this site, the quality of the content has actually gone so far downhill. Good bye and good luck, even to those who would say to me "good riddance."

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm

I must reiterate my disappointment in the level of response to this column by a MODERATOR of these boards. It´s too bad that after a successful visual upgrade of this site, the quality of the content has actually gone so far downhill. Good bye and good luck, even to those who would say to me "good riddance." 
 
 Yea PK you silly f*ck you. Did you not get the memo from the internet gods that ALL Forums Admins or Mods WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAVE AN OPINION if it conflicts with any of the forums users. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 Crap man you need to get on the ball because intelligent posters like Hugo are hard to find. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon27.gif">
 
 Hey HUGO... Some People cheat. You can try all you want to stop it or make programs to stop it but people always find a way around this. But there is a simple solution to any problem with cheaters (freinds and leagues)
 
 If you stuck around a forum long enough to make some friends you might just find a few people to play. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_cool.gif">
 
 
 No problems with the 20+ games I have played on NFL 2K3 with the XBOX Live Beta because I have known everyone that I played against.
 
 So to my friend PK, I simply remind you that come November it will be a pleasure to kick your ass in 2K3. And be able to talk smack as I do so. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">

Post by **Jared** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:45 pm

Well, I don´t have the time to respond to all of Hugo´s post...but I did notice some mischaracterizations of PK´s position:
 
 <blockquote>
 Hugo sez:
 
 "Perhaps there are those who will only play with friends online, but to pretend that only a select few would play strangers online is patently ludicrous."
 
 PK sez:
 
 "Does he ever think that maybe people want to play friends and/or relatives online, or people they´ve met in Forums such as here or Sports Reviewers?"
 </blockquote>
 
 I don´t see anything about a select few playing strangers. He´s just saying that lots of people would just as much enjoy playing friends/relatives (and sometimes, even more so, considering the quitter/cheater factor prevalent on both systems).
 
 I think PK´s second point was that communication is/will be an important aspect of online gaming, and you just can´t do effectively without a mic setup. Mr. Rant and Rave´s argument ("Everyone knows how to type these days") is irrelevant...people can type, but it´s tough to type and play at the same time.
 
 He´s complaning about cheaters, but that happens on all systems, both on the PS2 and XBox Live. And in Madden (correct me if I´m mistaken), you can´t do anything about pausers...the same problem in the Rant and Rave article.
 
 True...the XBox version should have keyboard support. But in the opinion of most, having voice communication more than makes up for it.
 
 Anyways, PK was just expressing an opinion. And Hugo is more than welcome to express disagreement with that opinion. However, saying that the quality of the site has gone downhill because people are expressing opinions is silly. Opinions are what makes a forum work. And I´m happy to have anyone expressing their opinions here, as long as they can back up their opinions.
 
 So no "good riddance" to you Hugo. Feel free to stay...just make sure to back up what you say.
 
 Jared
 (another evil moderator <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> )
 
 <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:34 pm

Hugo:
 
 Thanks for your post. I stand by every word I wrote.
 
 Sorry that you find dissenting opinion to be an indicator of a decline in quality. I´m sure you can find many sites where posters will sing "Kumbaya" and march in lockstep to your views.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 26-09-2002 17:37 ]

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:23 pm

Jared et al;
 
 Just to be clear, it is not dissenting opinion that I have a problem with; it is rather the manner in which that opinion is expressed. Right away, pk characterizes Templehorn as "this f*cking idiot", a "weasel" who "obviously never plays sports games," and in the end a "damn baby" who is "foolish" simply because he wanted to complete an online game of football. I would expect this type of childish ad-hominem attack in a 6th grade lunch room, or even from a random poster on any forum board, but from a moderator in THESE forums, I find it quite disturbing and insulting. I was under the clearly erroneous understanding that moderators were charged with maintaining the civility and decency of these forum discussions, but the tone set here by this moderator achieves just the opposite.
 As far as Madden Online is concerned, I would hope you would try Madden Online before commenting on issues like "pausers" and chatting in-game. Had you read my initial post carefully, you would have noted that I believe Madden Online does an excellent job of obviating any cheap tactics one might use to disrupt the playing of the game; to clarify, as opposed to NFL2k3, one cannot pause indefinitely, and, aside from never kicking off (which I have never experienced), all that a nuisance-type player can do to ruin one´s online experience is to quit out of the game. Madden deals with this issue by allowing you to continue against the computer if you wish. Certainly there are cheaters in Madden Online, who use Marshall Faulk as their place-kick holder so that they can fake every kick, or play no-huddle every play, put Randy Moss in at TE, go for it every 4th down, and so forth, but I have found these players can be beaten within the context of the football game in Madden. Someone pausing the game to go into replay and zoom in on Tom Brady´s a$$ (as happened to me once in NFL2k3, and though it was very funny for a while, it got stale after it became clear that he had no intention of finishing the game) is out of luck in Madden Online.
 Whether or not one agrees with Templehorn´s column, one must admit that it is respectfully and maturely expressed, and in my opinion it deserves discussion with the same level of maturity with which it was originally written. I fully agree that differences in opinion are what forums are all about, but to call someone a "f*cking idiot" and a "weasel" simply because he honestly related his frustration with a game (and in a respectful way, no less) has less to do with expressing an opinion or discussing an issue than it does with getting your rocks off by wantonly insulting people without provocation.
 
 Take care all.
 
 One more thing; I apologize for over reacting. I guess the unexpectedness of pk´s initial response got me all in a lather, as I happened to fully agree with Templehorn´s original post. This is still one of the best sites for info and opinion on sports games, and I think you guys all do a great job. Keep up the good work.
 [ This message was edited by: hugo on 27-09-2002 10:39 ]

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:45 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 Right away, pk characterizes Templehorn as "this f*cking idiot", a "weasel" who "obviously never plays sports games," and in the end a "damn baby" who is "foolish" simply because he wanted to complete an online game of football.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 
 <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_eek.gif"> The sad part is you actually think Templehorn is the person who wrote the article. I am beginning to question how much of this thread you actually read or if you just have a hardon for PK.
 
 Look at the URL to the article and see if you can figure it out. Heck look at Templehorns reply to PK. For that matter look at every thread that Templehorn starts.
 
 Many clues for you to go with. If you can solve the mystery there is a Scooby Snack in it for you. [ This message was edited by: bdoughty on 27-09-2002 10:46 ]

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:59 pm

Point taken- my misunderstanding. It´s just that I happened to agree with the arcticle as written, and was simply disappointed with the type of comments given by pk in response. Like I said, those types of comments are not unusual on other boards I´ve visited, notably Big Soccer, but I guess I´ve held this site to a higher standard, and moderators to a higher standard still. No hard feelings meant by me, I was just registering my disappointment that the issues discussed in the article were not dealt with in the way that I would have expected. I could have done it in another way, and obviously I did misunderstand that Templehorn´s intent was ridicule in the first place.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:56 am

Lets get a league going,start it in November and play. Between DS and SR we would have many players that we know and it would be a blast!

Post by **Jared** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 8:41 pm

Jackdog: Which game are you talking about? Madden or NFL2K3?
 
 Hugo: It´s all good. Everyone´s got opinions...and some people express them in different ways. We´re happy to get opinions from all sorts, in tons of different ways. Thanks for letting us know yours, and keep on communicating them.
 
 Jared