OT: Election/Politics thread, Part 6

[matthewk]

I have no idea why McCain did not go straight to a person like Romney when the financial crisis began. Obama did a good thing by getting people like Buffett into his circle.

Come to think of it, What did Leiberman do for McCain all campaign? I don't recall him speaking a word, and least none memorable enough to be sampled on any news program.

[matthewk]

To me, insurers are part of the problem, not the solution. We spend 25 cents out of every dollar we spend on health care for processing health insurance claims. Then their generous profit margins, which adds to our overall costs.

But nobody in 2008, not even Hilary Clinton, is talking about cutting them out of the system, as they did back in the early '90s.

One of the criticisms against a govt-administered health care system is that we don't have the money for it. But we found money to try to nation-build in the Middle East and we found, or more accurately, borrow money to bail out the finance sector.

The irony is that we're already paying these unimaginable sums to private companies which are supposedly so much more efficient than govt. at ROI, yet their costs, which they've passed on to consumers, have been much higher than inflation for at least a couple of decades.

I'm finally getting back to this after digesting your comments.

I think we can agree with the portion of text I have quoted above. There needs to be some sort of investigation into just where all of our money goes when it comes to health costs. It's unsustainable to have our costs rise double digits each year while salaries don't move much at all.

I smell waste somewhere along the line, and I wish someone in goverment would look into that rather than spend that time on baseball players.

I still beleivve the private sector is better suited for health care than our government. Have you visited your local DMV lately?

[wco81]

I don't buy the Carter comparisons.

Obviously, there's a political strategy in linking Obama to Carter, which brings up associations about gas lines and Americans being held hostage.

I suppose conservatives would have preferred that Carter launch a full-scale war against Iran instead of the special ops missions which failed.

The gas lines were the result of OPEC action, not any specific policy Carter signed.

The hyperinflation? Ultimately, Volker whom Carter appointed and whom Reagan kept on, defeated it.

In fact, what policy did Carter pass? I guess we have the CRA, which the conservatives are trying to blame for the subprime mess when most of the egregious lending was done by non-CRA institutions.

He didn't get Americans to conserve so was there anything of substance passed in those years?

[Brando70]

Considering the enormous cloud of W and this current Administration and its incredibly low approval ratings hanging over McCain, along with the tremendous disdain the media has for the current Administration, a 6 point difference in the POPULAR VOTE is nothing to write home about, IMO.

McCain's biggest failure as I see it is that he could never shake the stigma of his association with the Bush Administration and the Democratic Party's insistence that it would be 4 more years just like the past 8.

It's more than just the presidential election and the 2008 elections. The changes began in 2006. Obama's popular vote victory is not terribly large, but it's quite significant when considered along with the Democratic gains in Congress.

The majority of American voters have sent a message that Gingrich Republicanism is no longer what they want. They want to dance and the GOP has been John Lithgow in Footloose.

As for the Russians, they will test Obama for sure, but it's not like they were scared of Bush. Putin's a crafty SOB, and he and his puppets know we can't do a lot to curb Russian expansion as long as Moscow stays within "reasonable" limits, much in the same way they can't do much about us tromping around in the Middle East.

[Teal]

Don't get me wrong, I don't support Bush today. He did alot of things the wrong way, but he did not do things all by himself.

You're right...he had an awful lot of help from Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, etc. Fortunately, their days are either over or just about to be a part of the horrible past, too.

And congress. The White House can't do a damned thing by itself.

[wco81]

I can see it now. Obama decides not to push for Missile Defense, which is the biggest weapons system in the DoD budget, despite it being a crock, and the conservatives will HOWL about how he's not protecting us, how he's caving into terrorists and Putin.

Putting the anti-missile batteries in the Russians face is needlessly provocative. But it's obviously more important to fund a weapons system which can't work.

[Naples39]

Glad to see the thread is back to partisan-bickering and unfair accusations after a highly uncomfortable ~16 hours of good vibes.

[Jared]

He's just a poor innocent man who is misunderstood.

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0430jm.html

Read that story and then justify how this man is teaching our children

Did I say that he was a "poor innocent man", or anything close to that? No. Or did I say that he was misunderstood? No.

I was pointing out that this is another bit of evidence that their relationship wasn't cozy, and that the current "threat" of Ayers, whether via his current teachings or activities, was highly exaggerated.

[Brando70]

Glad to see the thread is back to partisan-bickering and unfair accusations after a highly uncomfortable ~16 hours of good vibes.

You'll feel better after you get back from the re-education camp

[matthewk]

He's just a poor innocent man who is misunderstood.

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0430jm.html

Read that story and then justify how this man is teaching our children

Did I say that he was a "poor innocent man", or anything close to that? No. Or did I say that he was misunderstood? No.

I was pointing out that this is another bit of evidence that their relationship wasn't cozy, and that the current "threat" of Ayers, whether via his current teachings or activities, was highly exaggerated.

What you did was exaggerate the threat (in a mocking way) by stating he was BFF and wanted to turn all our kids into commie drones. My comment was the other side of that coin.

[JackB1]

Their logic is flawed, or they are just in denial. No matter the reasons for being in Iraq, all signs point to us winning the fight there against terrorists. So they say they like McCain because he'll continue to fight them.

Just keeping most of our military in Irag indefinitely, to "fight terrorists" doesn't cut it anymore. There are more effective ways to fight terrorism and Bush/McCain don't understand that. There are way more people dieing of cancer, disease and poverty in this country than from terrorists.
How about focusing on all the reccomendations made by the 9/11 Commission? How about securing our borders, ports and airports?
The costs of this war and impact on our economy have been far too great to justify it by simply saying "we are winning the fight against terrorists by being there".

[JackB1]

Their logic is flawed, or they are just in denial. No matter the reasons for being in Iraq, all signs point to us winning the fight there against terrorists. So they say they like McCain because he'll continue to fight them.

You want the guy that will ensure your own destruction. Um, ok.

On the contrary, actually. They know that the two-front war in Iraq and Afghanistan is draining the U.S. Treasury and hurting the U.S. economy, which in turn makes America weaker domestically and globally. A powerful economy is just as potent a weapon as an M-16.

Couldn't agree more. I think some people have a misconception that
somehow us being in Iraq has prevented another terrorist attack on our homeland. These are the same people that believed that Sadam had something to do with 9/11 and probably still believe Obama is a Muslim.

[XXXIV]

These are the same people that believed that Sadam had something to do with 9/11 and probably still believe Obama is a Muslim.

....Links? As to evidence that they are the same people.

I know many people that think the war in Iraq has prevented an attack here. Strange thing though is that not a single one believes that Obama is a muslim, sadam was behind 911, or that the tooth fairy is real.

[JackB1]

Don't get me wrong, I don't support Bush today. He did alot of things the wrong way, but he did not do things all by himself.

You're right...he had an awful lot of help from Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, etc. Fortunately, their days are either over or just about to be a part of the horrible past, too.

And congress. The White House can't do a damned thing by itself.

Not true. Bush used the excuse of being "at war" to pass through legislation without needed any else's approval.

[RobVarak]

I don't buy the Carter comparisons.

Obviously, there's a political strategy in linking Obama to Carter, which brings up associations about gas lines and Americans being held hostage.

I suppose conservatives would have preferred that Carter launch a full-scale war against Iran instead of the special ops missions which failed.

The gas lines were the result of OPEC action, not any specific policy Carter signed.

The hyperinflation? Ultimately, Volker whom Carter appointed and whom Reagan kept on, defeated it.

In fact, what policy did Carter pass? I guess we have the CRA, which the conservatives are trying to blame for the subprime mess when most of the egregious lending was done by non-CRA institutions.

He didn't get Americans to conserve so was there anything of substance passed in those years?

He raised the payroll tax rates. He cut defense spending precipitously at a time when the military needed just the opposite. He granted a universal pardon to draft dodgers. He let Congress go ape-s*** with pork bills because he was a weak president fromt the get-go. He initiated a foreign policy based on an idealistic lark which made human rights the pre-eminent consideration. He initiated the grain embargo against the USSR. He finalized the process of giving away the Panama Canal. He misread the mood of the Iranian "revolutionaries" and granted the Shah asylum. He tried to remove the US military presence in Korea. Hell, if you want to take the long view he also initiated the support for the Afghan reisistance that ultimatel led to bin Laden (although obviously this was a bi-partisan move that Reagan continued).

Hmm, I wonder why he only got one term?

Despite that litany, his administration wasn't a complete disaster by historical standards, but it is a vivid demonstration of my main point: A President who is not ideologically aligned with the electorate has a very narrow margin for error. The only thing worse is a President that loses personal credibility with the public.

As I said in my first post, Carter did have an additional handicap in that his own party basically hated him from right out of the gate. He garnered more animosity from his own party in Congress than anyone since LBJ, but he lacked LBJ's political skills and experience.

Tangentially, I don't think a full-scale war with Iran was anywhere near the issue that separated Carter and conservatives. His mishandling of the crisis certainly was an issue, but it wasn't so much his unwillingness to go to war as much as it was his neglect of the military and foreign policy which left the US impotent in the face of the mullahs.

[Slumberland]

Not true. Bush used the excuse of being "at war" to pass through legislation without needed any else's approval.

I... don't think that's quite accurate. The Bush/Cheney approach to signing statements probably gets closer to the heart of the 'unaccountable executive' problem you're driving at, but single-handedly passing legislation... no.

[JackB1]

I still beleivve the private sector is better suited for health care than our government. Have you visited your local DMV lately?

So that's your logic? You find one federal agency that isn't run well and
then you dismiss everything else that you don't approve of? Funny how you blindly trust the govt to fight terrorism efficiently, but you don't trust them with a health care system. Yeah, you are right. Our health care system is fine "as is". Hopefully you or your loved ones won't ever experience what's it's like to have your HMO insurance company deny you coverage of a life saving procedure.

[RobVarak]

Not true. Bush used the excuse of being "at war" to pass through legislation without needed any else's approval.

I... don't think that's quite accurate.

Slumber's still operating in the spirit of magnanimity and friendliness that many of the rest of us have quickly abandoned.

[JackB1]

Glad to see the thread is back to partisan-bickering and unfair accusations after a highly uncomfortable ~16 hours of good vibes.

Was it that long?

[JackB1]

McCain's biggest failure as I see it is that he could never shake the stigma of his association with the Bush Administration and the Democratic Party's insistence that it would be 4 more years just like the past 8.

I disagree. While the focus on our sinking economy shifted focus away from McCain's strength (War)....Sarah Palin's ineptitude and inability to prove she belonged at McCain's side swayed many of the undecided voters that the Rep ticket needed to win over. I think Katie Couric's interviews may have done more to insure Obama's victory than people realize.

[Naples39]

Rahm Emanuel seems nearly certain to accept Chief of staff appointment from Obama.

Sounds like my kind of guy;

Emanuel was a political and policy aide in Bill Clinton's White House. Leaving that, he turned to investment banking, then won a Chicago-area House seat six years ago. In Congress, he moved quickly into the leadership.

He is a member of the New Democrat Coalition....

The New Democrat Coalition is an organization within the United States Congress. It is made up of 15 Democratic Senate members and 58 Democratic members of the House of Representatives who claim moderate and pro-business stances.

Emanuel has maintained a 100% pro-choice voting record and is generally liberal on social issues. He has aligned himself with the Democratic Leadership Council and the party's centrist wing, but is not among its more conservative members.

...

The Democratic Leadership Council is a non-profit 501(c)(4) corporation that argues that the United States Democratic Party should shift away from traditionally populist positions. The DLC hails President Bill Clinton as proof of the viability of third way politicians and as a DLC success story while liberals point out that Bill Clinton won campaigning as a populist only to abandon those positions after getting elected. Critics contend that the DLC is a powerful, corporate-financed mouthpiece within the Democratic party - or "The Republican Wing of the Democratic Party". Critics also contend that the DLC is an antique of the 1990's since the United States is significantly more liberal than it was during that decade.

Quick, someone shoot me down before I actually get my hopes up of centrism and a pro-business climate under Obama.

[XXXIV]

McCain's biggest failure as I see it is that he could never shake the stigma of his association with the Bush Administration and the Democratic Party's insistence that it would be 4 more years just like the past 8.

I disagree. While the focus on our sinking economy shifted focus away from McCain's strength (War)....Sarah Palin's ineptitude and inability to prove she belonged at McCain's side swayed many of the undecided voters they needed to win over. I think Katie Couric's interviews may have done more to insure Obama's victory that people realize.

I disagree with you and agree with Divot.

The addition of Palin had pulled McCain even to ahead of Obama then the market tanked. Once the market tanked it became impossible for McCain to seperate himself from Bush.

[XXXIV]

Rahm Emanuel seems nearly certain to accept Chief of staff appointment from Obama.

Sounds like my kind of guy;


Quick, someone shoot me down before I actually get my hopes up of centrism and a pro-business climate under Obama.

Obama is a very smart man. He will dissapoint the lunatic fringe. He will want to get re elected.

He is not Jimmy the worlds biggest f*** Carter.

[Feanor]

Maybe this is unfair, but Rahm Emanuel has always struck me as being really slimy.

[Jared]

This map is interesting...it's the counties that voted more Republican in 2008 compared to 2004.