OT: Election/Politics thread, Part 6

[JackB1]

The ballots I've cast in Maine since 2000 have had that same format. It is really easy - just like filling in a dot next to the choice. If anything, it is better in that the filled in arrow is a BIG mark pointing towards who you want - easy to double-check and read. Historically, there haven't been any problems here and I doubt there will be in Palm Beach. If you ever do fill out a ballot of this type I'm sure you will get to understand its strengths.

It may be easy to you...but to a 85 year old with glaucoma...not so easy. The point is, they change it every time. Pick something basic and easy and stick with it so they know what to expect. There should be one standard voting ballot that is used for the whole country. I agree that the best one is a name with a little circle next to it, that you fill in. Like the SAT's. That should be the standard. Easy and simple.

[pk500]

Did anyon get a look at that ballot in Palm Beach County Florida? The had an arrow with a part in the middle missing and you have to "connect the arrow". What the hell? Didn't they learn anything from the last election down there? Can't they make it simple for all those retired folks in FL?

God that's stupid. They will never learn brother. I also wish they would hold the election on a saturday. I honestly believe it would help voter turnout.

I simply don't understand all of these newfangled chad, touch-screen, optical scanner and four-page paper ballots.

Here in upstate New York, we still use the old-fashioned voting machines with the curtain, large pull lever and individual small levers for various electoral races. Works perfectly. You never hear of any problems with machines, fraud, seniors having trouble figuring out the ballot or the machines, etc.

If it's not broke, why fix it?

Take care,
PK

[JackB1]

I've been thinking all night of the words to express my feelings about having an African American President. All I can think of is how my dad killed himself when I was 11 years old and how mom my struggled to provide for the remaining 4 of her 9 kids without a man in the house or someone to support her. I wish my mom had impressed in to me the importance of education, and I wish I had my dad and grandfathers around to let me know what it meant to be a man, a feeling I didn't feel until I married my wife and met her father who showed me more in 8 years than my natural dad could ever show me. I feel so much pride in seeing what level a black man can reach. From the things I've seen in my life, I never felt that as much self confidence I attempted to instill in to my two boys, that I would be able to present to my two African American boys, that they could truly aspire to the highest office in the land, without feeling that I was lying to their faces.

Wow. I can almost feel your emotion through the page, Gamer. I imagine there are many more like you feeling the same pride this morning. The nice thing is the effect this will have on all our nation's kids.
Everyone will now see that anything is now possible, regardless of race or gender. History was made this year and I am damn proud to have participated in it.

[EZSnappin]

The ballots I've cast in Maine since 2000 have had that same format. It is really easy - just like filling in a dot next to the choice. If anything, it is better in that the filled in arrow is a BIG mark pointing towards who you want - easy to double-check and read. Historically, there haven't been any problems here and I doubt there will be in Palm Beach. If you ever do fill out a ballot of this type I'm sure you will get to understand its strengths.

It may be easy to you...but to a 85 year old with glaucoma...not so easy. The point is, they change it every time. Pick something basic and easy and stick with it so they know what to expect. There should be one standard voting ballot that is used for the whole country. I agree that the best one is a name with a little circle next to it, that you fill in. Like the SAT's. That should be the standard. Easy and simple.

Actually, it is very, very easy for people with poor eyesight (like myself); much easier than little circles. By filling in the space, you end up with an arrow over an inch long pointing at the candidate you want. The only SAT-like ballots I ever cast were small, less than 1/4" ovals. At least both those types are optical scanned paper, which is my personal preference.

I agree that the ever-changing nature of the ballots down there is problematic, and that there should be a standard used everywhere, but until and unless the federal government gets involved the piecemeal and evolving ballot-types will continue.

[GTHobbes]

Nice post, TheGamer...

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... view_N.htm

[Teal]

Did anyon get a look at that ballot in Palm Beach County Florida? The had an arrow with a part in the middle missing and you have to "connect the arrow". What the hell? Didn't they learn anything from the last election down there? Can't they make it simple for all those retired folks in FL?

God that's stupid. They will never learn brother. I also wish they would hold the election on a saturday. I honestly believe it would help voter turnout.

I simply don't understand all of these newfangled chad, touch-screen, optical scanner and four-page paper ballots.

Here in upstate New York, we still use the old-fashioned voting machines with the curtain, large pull lever and individual small levers for various electoral races. Works perfectly. You never hear of any problems with machines, fraud, seniors having trouble figuring out the ballot or the machines, etc.

If it's not broke, why fix it?

Take care,
PK

Jack, we have that ballot in Alabama-you take a black marker and 'finish' the arrow...how much simpler could it get? It's a helluva lot simpler than those stupid punch card ballots, glitchy computer touch screens, and all that other nonsense.

"Draw an arrow to who you want to vote for." Dirt simple.

[XXXIV]

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win.

Maybe they should hold future U.S. elections in europe and in asia.

I do want them to be happy.

[fanatic]

Nice post, TheGamer...

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... view_N.htm

You're right....even here in Canada, we are walking around with a jump in our step today. Toronto is enormously multicultural and I'm sure that Obama's success will rub off in the minds of youth here.

[Teal]

Nice post, TheGamer...

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... view_N.htm

That's actually one of the things that gives me the most concern. Everyone in the world wanted him elected-Hamas and Al Queda included. (I'm NOT saying anything other than the obvious about that-DON'T read something stupid and asinine into it.)

When Hugo Chavez is happy with the pick, I worry. Sorry. Here's hoping Obama doesn't kowtow to those idiots.

[pk500]

Nice post, TheGamer...

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... view_N.htm

You're right....even here in Canada, we are walking around with a jump in our step today. Toronto is enormously multicultural and I'm sure that Obama's success will rub off in the minds of youth here.

Foreign policy is the one area where I definitely agreed with Obama and disagreed with McCain, so I hope Obama can refocus our fighting efforts to Afghanistan and increase American diplomacy elsewhere around the world.

America may be the world's only remaining superpower, but it can't have the entire schoolyard to itself. It must again learn to play well with others, to use terminology from my kids' report cards. And no, I don't mean playing well with terrorists ...

I have severe doubts about Obama's domestic policy plans. But I have quite a bit of hope for his foreign agenda.

Take care,
PK

[Jared]

That's actually one of the things that gives me the most concern. Everyone in the world wanted him elected-Hamas and Al Queda included. (I'm NOT saying anything other than the obvious about that-DON'T read something stupid and asinine into it.)

When Hugo Chavez is happy with the pick, I worry. Sorry. Here's hoping Obama doesn't kowtow to those idiots.

Actually, Al Qaeda supported McCain. Seriously.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/2 ... 36779.html

The message, posted Monday on the password-protected al-Hesbah Web site, said if al-Qaida wants to exhaust the United States militarily and economically, "impetuous" Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain is the better choice because he is more likely to continue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"This requires presence of an impetuous American leader such as McCain, who pledged to continue the war till the last American soldier," the message said. "Then, al-Qaida will have to support McCain in the coming elections so that he continues the failing march of his predecessor, Bush."

[TheGamer]

PK, JD, Jack, & GTHobbes, thanks for the thoughts. I wanted to share this email I just received from a former co-worker of mine. We were both laid off last year when the mortgage company we worked for filed bk and closed down. She is a 47 year old white woman and an Obama supporter. I'm more than sure that the story she writes about in the email is very common throughout the country and Obama wouldn't have won without the change in mindset of many of people.

My father epitomizes what just happened in this country. My father is a racist and I remember very clearly in the 1960's when he was going to vote for George Wallace - it was the only time my parents openly argued politics (he was not allowed to express his views in front of us children, although he did every chance he got).

Flash forward 40 years . . . . my father is a Democrat before he is a racist. His daughter is living at home because she can't find a job. He's been paying his grandson's rent for 5 months because he can't find work. He was born in July, 1930 and very clearly remembers the hunger and deprivation of the Depression and the rationing during WW II.

Not only did he vote for Obama, he openly supported him. He stood in line, crippled and leaning on a cane, for 1.5 hours to vote early. And he sat up until 1 am watching the election results, not only for Obama, but hoping for enough Senate seats to fillibuster. Then he woke up at 3 am and turned it back on and realized we had just taken Indiana (that was a true miracle - don't know what you know about that state). He's sitting upstairs right now watching CNN and acting like the Cubs just took the playoffs.

This country is in true crisis. And we really need a change

[Teal]

That's actually one of the things that gives me the most concern. Everyone in the world wanted him elected-Hamas and Al Queda included. (I'm NOT saying anything other than the obvious about that-DON'T read something stupid and asinine into it.)

When Hugo Chavez is happy with the pick, I worry. Sorry. Here's hoping Obama doesn't kowtow to those idiots.

Actually, Al Qaeda supported McCain. Seriously.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/2 ... 36779.html

The message, posted Monday on the password-protected al-Hesbah Web site, said if al-Qaida wants to exhaust the United States militarily and economically, "impetuous" Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain is the better choice because he is more likely to continue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"This requires presence of an impetuous American leader such as McCain, who pledged to continue the war till the last American soldier," the message said. "Then, al-Qaida will have to support McCain in the coming elections so that he continues the failing march of his predecessor, Bush."

Well, okay. The point remains.

[RobVarak]

The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win.

Maybe they should hold future U.S. elections in europe and in asia.

I do want them to be happy.

LMFAO You beat me to the punch.

[matthewk]

That's actually one of the things that gives me the most concern. Everyone in the world wanted him elected-Hamas and Al Queda included. (I'm NOT saying anything other than the obvious about that-DON'T read something stupid and asinine into it.)

When Hugo Chavez is happy with the pick, I worry. Sorry. Here's hoping Obama doesn't kowtow to those idiots.

Actually, Al Qaeda supported McCain. Seriously.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/2 ... 36779.html

The message, posted Monday on the password-protected al-Hesbah Web site, said if al-Qaida wants to exhaust the United States militarily and economically, "impetuous" Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain is the better choice because he is more likely to continue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"This requires presence of an impetuous American leader such as McCain, who pledged to continue the war till the last American soldier," the message said. "Then, al-Qaida will have to support McCain in the coming elections so that he continues the failing march of his predecessor, Bush."

Their logic is flawed, or they are just in denial. No matter the reasons for being in Iraq, all signs point to us winning the fight there against terrorists. So they say they like McCain because he'll continue to fight them.

You want the guy that will ensure your own destruction. Um, ok.

[Brando70]

Their logic is flawed, or they are just in denial. No matter the reasons for being in Iraq, all signs point to us winning the fight there against terrorists. So they say they like McCain because he'll continue to fight them.

You want the guy that will ensure your own destruction. Um, ok.

Much in the same way we prefer to fight terrorists abroad than at home, I think they prefer to have targets abroad than trying to come here. Obviously, AQ would love another spectacular strike on American soil, but those types of attacks are very hard to pull off, especially now that we expect them. Right or wrong, having a large American military presence in Muslim countries plays into AQ propaganda about American imperialism.

Personally, I think trying to guess which candidate another country or foreign organization "supports" is a pretty useless exercise.

[RobVarak]

Driving my daughter to school this a.m. I was struck by how much this version of 1976 resembles the first.

Sure we don't have red, white and blue bicentennial fire hydrants, but we do have the internet and satellite radio, so it's about even.

[XXXIV]

The U.S. imperial army wasnt there when they struck in 01. Any excuse to kill for the human waste.

America was, is and always will be hated as long as its on top.

[Naples39]

The brilliance of Obama's campaign is that he made his vague 'change' slogan stick. Sure, this was made possible in large part because of historic low approval ratings for the sitting president (and even the democratic congress), and the economic crisis provided a huge boost to his campaign. But by sticking to 'change', it was a word that meant different things to different people, and seemingly referred to different things as the campaign went on.

At first, 'change' seemed to refer to being a young, powerful african-american speaker. It also referred to his opposition to the very unpopular Iraq war. By the end of the campaign, 'change' meant meeting the challenges of the economic crisis by being as different as possible from Bush.


Two separate questions are beginning to form in my head;
1) Does this election indicate a leftward shift in the nation?
2) Does the symbolic value alone of Obama's victory have great value for race relations in America and our image abroad?

For 1, I think probably not, unless Obama does in fact get in office and push very liberal legislation which is then followed by a resounding economic turnaround.

For 2, though it is still ridiculously early, it appears the answer is yes.

[pk500]

Their logic is flawed, or they are just in denial. No matter the reasons for being in Iraq, all signs point to us winning the fight there against terrorists. So they say they like McCain because he'll continue to fight them.

You want the guy that will ensure your own destruction. Um, ok.

On the contrary, actually. They know that the two-front war in Iraq and Afghanistan is draining the U.S. Treasury and hurting the U.S. economy, which in turn makes America weaker domestically and globally. A powerful economy is just as potent a weapon as an M-16.

McCain intended to continue the fight in Iraq as long as he saw necessary, while Obama plans a major drawback in American troops from Iraq and a shift in emphasis to Afghanistan over the next 16 months. Still, I don't think the plan is to redeploy all the troops withdrawn from Iraq to Afghanistan, which will in turn reduce the daily expenses of this conflict while hopefully focusing the fight in the proper spot.

But Brando is right: The endorsement of a U.S. political candidate by any terrorist group is pretty irrelevant.

Take care,
PK

[Jackdog]

PK, JD, Jack, & GTHobbes, thanks for the thoughts. I wanted to share this email I just received from a former co-worker of mine. We were both laid off last year when the mortgage company we worked for filed bk and closed down. She is a 47 year old white woman and an Obama supporter. I'm more than sure that the story she writes about in the email is very common throughout the country and Obama wouldn't have won without the change in mindset of many of people.

My father epitomizes what just happened in this country. My father is a racist and I remember very clearly in the 1960's when he was going to vote for George Wallace - it was the only time my parents openly argued politics (he was not allowed to express his views in front of us children, although he did every chance he got).

Flash forward 40 years . . . . my father is a Democrat before he is a racist. His daughter is living at home because she can't find a job. He's been paying his grandson's rent for 5 months because he can't find work. He was born in July, 1930 and very clearly remembers the hunger and deprivation of the Depression and the rationing during WW II.

Not only did he vote for Obama, he openly supported him. He stood in line, crippled and leaning on a cane, for 1.5 hours to vote early. And he sat up until 1 am watching the election results, not only for Obama, but hoping for enough Senate seats to fillibuster. Then he woke up at 3 am and turned it back on and realized we had just taken Indiana (that was a true miracle - don't know what you know about that state). He's sitting upstairs right now watching CNN and acting like the Cubs just took the playoffs.

This country is in true crisis. And we really need a change

Wow. Thanks for posting that.

[DivotMaker]

1, The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win.

2. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

1. Sorry, but I could give two shits less for what the rest of the world wants. They don't live here, therefore they won't have to endure the next 4 years that we do firsthand.

2. Will the next 4 years be better than the past 8? Who knows. Unless you have a magic crystal ball, then your guess is no better than mine or anyone elses. My guess is that this is going to be a long, protracted process that will likely take longer than 4 years. The only thing that I am "relieved" about is that there is a new target for the media to blame when things don't go as well as promised or planned. Don't get me wrong, I don't support Bush today. He did alot of things the wrong way, but he did not do things all by himself. The only differences I can clearly see today are that the nation got the "change" that slightly more than half the voters wanted, there is an African American who is now President, and we won't be subjected to a President who can't even articulate the word "nuclear". This AM is somewhat like a hangover the morning after....you had fun the night before (the election), yet all the issues that likely led you to drink are still issues today and now you have a headache to deal with in addition to it. God Bless Obama because he (or McCain if he had won) is going to NEED IT.

[Jackdog]

1, The best part for me about Obama's win, other than the obvious numbering of W's last days, is that the rest of the world also clearly wanted him to win.

2. What a refreshing change to read how others feel about us today, after suffering through the last 8 years of confrontation and complete closed-mindedness.

1. Sorry, but I could give two shits less for what the rest of the world wants. They don't live here, therefore they won't have to endure the next 4 years that we do firsthand.

2. Will the next 4 years be better than the past 8? Who knows. Unless you have a magic crystal ball, then your guess is no better than mine or anyone elses. My guess is that this is going to be a long, protracted process that will likely take longer than 4 years. The only thing that I am "relieved" about is that there is a new target for the media to blame when things don't go as well as promised or planned. Don't get me wrong, I don't support Bush today. He did alot of things the wrong way, but he did not do things all by himself. The only differences I can clearly see today are that the nation got the "change" that slightly more than half the voters wanted, there is an African American who is now President, and we won't be subjected to a President who can't even articulate the word "nuclear". This AM is somewhat like a hangover the morning after....you had fun the night before (the election), yet all the issues that likely led you to drink are still issues today and now you have a headache to deal with in addition to it. God Bless Obama because he (or McCain if he had won) is going to NEED IT.

Amen.

I've been stationed in many places around the world. The countries that are doing well have an attitude towards America. F*ck em.

The third world population could give a shitless who's President,they want to get to America. When I was in Iraq, Bush was praised by many of the folks I met. He's a hero to them. Since I've lost friends and physical abilities in that country it's good too know it wasn't all in vein.

[Brando70]

Two separate questions are beginning to form in my head;
1) Does this election indicate a leftward shift in the nation?
2) Does the symbolic value alone of Obama's victory have great value for race relations in America and our image abroad?

For number 1, I agree that it's not a vote for "the left." It's more of a "let's see what you guys can do" vote. The simple fact is that the GOP had more than ample opportunity to make it's version of America work. It didn't so the other side gets a try. If they screw up they will be out in 2-4 years as well.

I think much of it depends on something Rob talked about -- whether Obama brings the country with him along the lines of FDR, (briefly) Lyndon Johnson, or Reagan. If his policies deliver results, then yes, I think we'll see a more liberal orientation for quite some time, the way we did from 1932-1952. If not, the door will be opened for another Reagan revolution or something similar.

As for number 2, I think the whole campaign had pretty big significance for race relations, and also for gender relations as well. There were issues related to both during the election, but they really took a back seat to other concerns and issues. Clinton got some flack after her crying incidents, but overall there wasn't a lot of argument that she shouldn't be president because she's a woman. The same with Palin -- most of the criticism of her little to do with her gender.

It's not like racism ended yesterday, but the country took a big step forward toward living the ideal that anyone can be president, regardless of race, sex, or economic background.

[wco81]

1. If businesses find the requirement to provide health care to employees onerous, they can relocate out of town. Not too universal if it's so easy to avoid the requirement.

And if this ever goes national the answer will be what? If they don't like it they can relocate out of the country?

My point is, a city alone can't effect the kind of big health care reform that you and others fear.

As for the nation as a whole, employers have been dropping health care coverage steadily throughout this decade. And even those which continue to offer coverage are passing on more and more of the costs to the employees. It's Open Enrollment at many companies right now and more than likely, you'll see that the plans they offer for the next year will cost you more out of pocket, either in terms of deductions and/or your deductibles and copayments.

Health care costs are increasing and taking up more and more of the GDP. Status quo is just not an option. It's not a bad situation for all of us but gradually, more and more of us will pay more for less care, until we lose coverage altogether.

McCain's plan would have represented a greater departure, as it would have decoupled health care from employment. But it would have trusted that market forces would have made insurers provide coverage to everyone (instead of cherry-picking healthy customers only) at lower costs.

To me, insurers are part of the problem, not the solution. We spend 25 cents out of every dollar we spend on health care for processing health insurance claims. Then their generous profit margins, which adds to our overall costs.

But nobody in 2008, not even Hilary Clinton, is talking about cutting them out of the system, as they did back in the early '90s.

One of the criticisms against a govt-administered health care system is that we don't have the money for it. But we found money to try to nation-build in the Middle East and we found, or more accurately, borrow money to bail out the finance sector.

The irony is that we're already paying these unimaginable sums to private companies which are supposedly so much more efficient than govt. at ROI, yet their costs, which they've passed on to consumers, have been much higher than inflation for at least a couple of decades.