NFL Season 2009

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:35 pm

I'm fine with the OT rules, but think it would be better if either the kicking team got to kickoff from the 40 or the team choosing to receive has to start at the 20. It's too much of an advantage to start a possession in overtime at the 25 to 35 yard line. In today's stadiums with so many with turf and/or controlled environments the offensive team only has to go about 40 yards for a makeable field goal. When the rule originated there were probably more touchbacks, less field goal length and accuracy, and more stadiums exposed to the elements.

It would be interesting if "overtime" was just treated like a quarter change and they kept playing where they left off at the end of the 4th. So you couldn't score a field goal as time expires and then get the right ball right back again. Or you couldn't run out the clock at your own 3 yard line to end a game and send it to overtime because you know your punt would come in the 5th quarter.

I think Logan will be a terrific player, but he was probably nervous last night. He had a very uneven performance. He is definitely a threat and I'm glad they have him, but he made a couple decisions last night that could have been costly (the fair catch at the 5 and not fair catching the punt that almost hit him and then bounced 15-20 yards downfield.

Ben Roethlisberger doesn't produce big fantasy stats, takes too many sacks, and throws too many interceptions so he won't end up on many lists with Brady, Brees, Manning, etc. but man is he fun to watch play. After winning 2 rings I don't even bother yelling at the TV when he takes a 19 yard sack that knocks them out of FG range.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:04 pm

Leebo33 wrote:Ben Roethlisberger doesn't produce big fantasy stats, takes too many sacks, and throws too many interceptions so he won't end up on many lists with Brady, Brees, Manning, etc. but man is he fun to watch play. After winning 2 rings I don't even bother yelling at the TV when he takes a 19 yard sack that knocks them out of FG range.

Yes.....
Brady didnt have the great fantasy stats after the first couple of rings either. Never know how that will play out. He could always wind up on some throwing offense....Meanwhile stats are nice but the 2 rings are forever.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:15 pm

Leebo33 wrote: I think Logan will be a terrific player, but he was probably nervous last night. He had a very uneven performance. He is definitely a threat and I'm glad they have him, but he made a couple decisions last night that could have been costly (the fair catch at the 5 and not fair catching the punt that almost hit him and then bounced 15-20 yards downfield.

He's a flashy dude. Yes, he'll make the odd bonehead decision here and there, but once he finds a gap, good luck catching him.

leebo33 wrote: Ben Roethlisberger doesn't produce big fantasy stats, takes too many sacks, and throws too many interceptions so he won't end up on many lists with Brady, Brees, Manning, etc.

IMO, Roethlisberger receives much more credit than he deserves, in fact, he should be looked down on for his inability to deliver the ball in a timely fashion. His receiving corps can't be covered for as long as it takes him to deliver the ball and always end up open. Watching Ben over his career, it has been notable, that when the offensive line doesn't give him as long as they do, Ben has very little or no success. Despite his rings, I will never see him in the company of those names that you mentioned.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:08 pm

10spro wrote:IMO, Roethlisberger receives much more credit than he deserves, in fact, he should be looked down on for his inability to deliver the ball in a timely fashion.

I think the best run organization in professional football feels differently and felt like he was worth the $100M. I guess I could buy that he gets too much credit if you didn't include any intangibles in the equation. What separates him from most QBs is his composure under pressure and his toughness. There's a reason he has so many 4th quarter comebacks. It's because he believes in himself and the team feeds off of it. He's a great on the field general. I wouldn't trade him for anyone in the NFL except maybe a healthy Tom Brady.

The kid (I can say that since I'm 15 years older than him) just loves the homerun and making the big play (7th all time in yards per pass attempt). The chicks dig the long ball. "Timely" is overrated.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:28 pm

I'm not a Steelers fan as I don't have anything against them but i'm a Big Ben fan. I see the points others have made. The dude even as big as he is will need to change his style in the next 2-3 years. He's going to have to learn to get rid of the ball sooner because the guy just takes a beating.

Late in the game he took a shot and i'm amazed he got up. He's still young at 27 but he will wear down more quickly in another 2-3 years. Last year I saw some Steelers games where he just looked physically beat like he was Arturo Gatti late in 12th rd.

It makes for great drama when he's taking a pounding and driving for the winning TD late in the game but I just can't see any QB whatever size holding up to a physical beating every week. Big Ben is a damn good QB but his style is so much different than Brady and Mannings. They're all good but the last two guys try to avoid the hits and the physical pounding that Big Ben is willing to take.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:38 pm

That drive at the end of that last Super Bowl should count for something

...

Dude Ben always seems to come up big.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:50 pm

Put me in the overrated camp. He's good, but the deification has been ridiculous.

A guy with his numbers and a league average defense would be hammered for all the sacks and picks. That D bails him out big time.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:53 am

RobVarak wrote:A guy with his numbers

What numbers are you talking about that are that bad? Even if you say his outstanding regular season and post season winning percentages are a result of the defense he's 9th all time in passer rating, 7th in adjusted yards per pass attempt, 14th in completion percentage (amazing considering his yards per attempt), and 32nd in TD%. His interception percentage is an average 3.6% but not that much worse than players he is compared to (Elway was 3.1%) and better than dozens of Hall of Famers.

His numbers are significantly better than QBs on the Steelers over the past 17 years that have usually had a Top 5 defense and his numbers are much better than the Ravens QBs that have played with a Top 5 defense for much of the past decade. He also compares very favorably to almost any QB by almost all statistical measures if you compare his accomplishments by age.

I'm an admitted homer, but I'm perplexed by the argument that Ben is bailed out by his defense. Maybe it's because I've seen other QBs play with the #1a and #1b defenses over the past 10-15 years many times (16 Steeler games and I see the Ravens on TV a lot here) and Ben blows them all away by any measure.

The Steelers have the worst offensive line in football. On 3 of the 4 sacks Roethlisberger took on Thursday Titans players were unblocked. On the second sack he took neither the LT or LG blocked anyone! On the 19 yard loss sack there were two unblocked players and 90% of NFL QBs would have just been hit and dropped immediately and then people would truly realize how bad the line is (if they didn't already realize it with the Steelers 21st rated run game last year, utter inability to pickup a short yardage situation over the past 2 years, and the mix of mid to late round draft picks populating the line).

Ben Roethlisberger *allows* the Steelers to have a top rated defense because they can still win Super Bowls spending much more on the defensive side of the ball. I know Ben himself makes a lot of money but its comparable to similar QBs that have received long term deals. There's no way the Steelers could afford to keep the defense together and give such large contracts to Polamalu, Smith, and Harrison if they didn't have a playmaker quarterback and could afford to let guys like Plaxico and Faneca get big money elsewhere.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:17 am

I may be mistaken but I don't think there's been another quarterback, except maybe Brady, with more game winning drives than Ben since he's been in the league. IMO that's the most important test of a quarterback and what makes the great ones special. For what he's accomplished in his career thus far I'd say he deserves the accolades. The 83 White Sox used "Winning Ugly" as their slogan. I'd say that slogan would apply to Big Ben too. He doesn't do things the way a prototypical quarterback does them but you can't argue with his results.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:49 am

I'm too lazy to go back further, but since the beginning of last season in the portions of games when the Steelers trailed or were tied in the 4th quarter or OT he was 75/113 (66.3%) with 4 TDs (all game winners) and 3 picks (one of these was a desperation heave). Not bad. Two of his 7 4th quarter winners last year were against the Ravens defense (including a 92 yard drive on the road) and the others were against Tennessee, San Diego, Dallas, at Jacksonville, and vs. Arizona in the Super Bowl. The games in which he couldn't bring his team back were all vs. playoff teams in Indy, the Giants, at Philly, and at Tennessee. The dude is money and he's only getting better in the pressure situations.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:08 pm

We had this discussion after the Super Bowl. I'm sure his coaches emphasize that he get rid of the ball on time, as soon as he plants the back foot.

But as long as he gets results, especially if he buys time to double-pump the safety up, the coaches probably aren't going to argue too much with his decisions.

He's shown the accuracy to be able to play like Warner or Brady and get rid of the ball on time. Why bother though if he can buy a couple more seconds and allow his WRs to get more separation?

Maybe he'll take more hits than he otherwise would but maybe he doesn't want to play forever either.

Of course, the answer is that even if he buys time, it doesn't always work, or else he'd lead them to more scores, more consistently. But he hasn't had to put up a lot of points, like Warner for instance.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:19 pm

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:59 pm

Leebo's point about the weak O-line is an important one. Ben's completion pct. after the first quarter was downright sick, especially considering the O-line's play. I don't see how anyone can say that Ben is not elite. He's clutch, he's a winner, he's gutsy, and he has two Superbowl rings.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:42 am

Roethlisberger's numbers do not lie. He's got a low completion percentage, a much less than ideal TD:INT ratio and he takes way, way, way too many sacks.

With all due respect, Scoop. Those are all far better measures of a QB than 4th quarter comebacks, which are dependent upon a huge number of factors outside the QB's control.

Leebo, his avg/att is the only number in his resume where he's consistently above average. Winning percentage is irrelevant when measuring the value of a QB (unless you're one of the buffoons always constructing arguments in defense of Kyle Orton, who was like 12-2 at some point).

Look, I like the guy. He's certainly not terrible by any measure. I'm just appalled at what's becoming a Favre-like tendency for "analysts" and fans alike to vastly overstate how good the guy is.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:07 am

I don't have anything against Ben either. But the elite group of QB's in my book would include Montana, Brady, P. Manning, even poor D. Marino. No one can argue about his two rings but to include him in the elite group? Is it maybe because he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers, the history, the winning tradition?

When I think of the Steelers, I think of them as the most elite defensive units in recent memory, and was the biggest part of their postseason success. I think of J. Bettis. Then come Ben, he's been a winner for PITT the past 5 years or so and is one tough dude. After all, why not wear a helmet when you're riding a motorcycle.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:17 am

RobVarak wrote:Roethlisberger's numbers do not lie. He's got a low completion percentage, a much less than ideal TD:INT ratio and he takes way, way, way too many sacks.

With all due respect, Scoop. Those are all far better measures of a QB than 4th quarter comebacks, which are dependent upon a huge number of factors outside the QB's control.

Leebo, his avg/att is the only number in his resume where he's consistently above average. Winning percentage is irrelevant when measuring the value of a QB (unless you're one of the buffoons always constructing arguments in defense of Kyle Orton, who was like 12-2 at some point).

Look, I like the guy. He's certainly not terrible by any measure. I'm just appalled at what's becoming a Favre-like tendency for "analysts" and fans alike to vastly overstate how good the guy is.

I would agree that there's far better measures of a QB's skillset than 4th quarter comebacks Rob but IMO legends are made with their winning percentage, Super Bowl rings, and performance in the clutch. I'm not saying Ben is a legend now nor am I saying he ever will be but I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't impressed with his first 5 years in the league. Right now I would never mention him in the same breath as Marino, Elway, or Montana. I will say that I don't think he is overrated though.

The fact that Ben's skillset isn't exactly what you would call great makes him all the more intriguing to me. He's got that one thing that can't be taught. The only thing I can think to illustrate my point is the difference between the Packers 2 years ago with Brett Favre and the Packers last year with Aaron Rodgers. Aaron Rodgers has an incredible skillset but has not shown that he can come through in the clutch as of yet. Brett Favre took the same basic team to the NFC championship game and had that team overperforming. Aaron Rodgers had a great year but couldn't give them those wins that Brett could.

If that doesn't convince you then let me just end on this note: Ben rides motorcycles and bangs lots of women. Now that's a legend.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:46 am

RobVarak wrote:Roethlisberger's numbers do not lie. He's got a low completion percentage

Rob, where are you getting these stats that don't lie? This is really frustrating. Ben is 14th all-time in completion percentage!

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/l ... career.htm

How does he stack up against some of the other greats that have played on great teams (updated Ben's stats after Thursday)?

Joe Montana: 63.4%
Tom Brady: 63%
Ben Roethlisberger: 62.7%
Brett Favre: 61.6%
Troy Aikman: 61.5%
John Elway: 56.9%

If you look at his numbers over his career he has been as high as 4th in the league in completion percentage and in the top 10 3 of his 5 years. How in the heck is 62.7% a low percentage especially when you consider that incredible yards per attempt?

His TD/Interception ration is 1.46. Elway's was 1.32. Favre's is 1.49.

Ben takes a lot of sacks, which is why I offered his adjusted passing numbers per attempt which adjusts for sacks and he's still 7th all time. Do the sacks hurt? Yes, but he usually makes up for it. The Steelers third down conversions were horrible last year but as you know they have a horrible line and can't run in short yardage. In 2005-2007 the Steelers converted third downs at 40.5, 39.3, and 39.7 which to me indicates that Ben is not leaving them in long 3rd down situations they can't convert.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:57 am

Ugh. Should have known better that something that cool wouldn't be free. I didn't know I had to pony up $49.99 a year for the Red Zone Channel.

Worth it?

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:29 am

Scoop,

You're clearly one of those pagans who also believes in "clutch hitting" in baseball, so I'll just write you off as a lost cause.

I would never argue with the fact that he is essentially legendary at this point, but I see that as more of a bug than a feature.

Leebo, I've got to plead exhaustion on the comp. % issue. I started out that sentence meaning to that his % has been like an EKG...unusual for an elite QB. It came out flat out wrong, mostly because I had a horribly long day yesterday.

In any event, here's another group of nerds having basically the same discussion, with the lines drawn up about the same.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/discus ... hlisberger

I think the only way I could really make my point would be to transcribe the kind of nonsense that you hear on a daily basis from the media. This guy is treated as a combination of Peyton Manning and Elvis...it's just too much.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:43 am

RobVarak wrote:Roethlisberger's numbers do not lie. He's got a low completion percentage, a much less than ideal TD:INT ratio and he takes way, way, way too many sacks.

His INT numbers are much better than Peyton Manning's were at the same point in his career and on par with Brady's and Brees's (69 for Roethlisberger vs. 66 for Brady and 64 for Brees after 6 seasons as a starter). His career completion percentage is 62.7%, which is pretty good. His TD numbers are much lower but that's more of a product of the Steeler offensive philosophy. His biggest fault is that he does take too many sacks, but he in the top 5-6 of NFL QBs.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:46 am

Leebo33 wrote:Ugh. Should have known better that something that cool wouldn't be free. I didn't know I had to pony up $49.99 a year for the Red Zone Channel.

Worth it?

If you watch two games every Sunday, hell yes. No better way to beat commercials than the RZC, and a lot of times I wind up watching it in lieu of some of the games.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:59 am

RobVarak wrote:Leebo, I've got to plead exhaustion on the comp. % issue. I started out that sentence meaning to that his % has been like an EKG...unusual for an elite QB.

Also unusual for elite QBs...starting at the age of 22 after leaving college with a year of eligibility remaining, playing a season after a summer motorcycle crash and a September emergency appendectomy, and playing a season schedule featuring 11/16 games against .500 or better teams while being "protected" by the worst offensive line in the NFL.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:27 pm

I see that I have it on Comcast this year. Love it already but why the hell isnt it shown in HD? Is that where Comcast says that I pay? I dont see the option anywhere.

Please Mr. Comcast Ill pay for the HD version . Just tell me where

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:53 pm

The ORIGINAL Red Zone Channel on DirecTV is worth it...the imitators, I couldn't tell ya. Of course, the RZC on D* is in HD.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:03 pm

Brando70 wrote:
RobVarak wrote:Roethlisberger's numbers do not lie. He's got a low completion percentage, a much less than ideal TD:INT ratio and he takes way, way, way too many sacks.
His INT numbers are much better than Peyton Manning's were at the same point in his career and on par with Brady's and Brees's (69 for Roethlisberger vs. 66 for Brady and 64 for Brees after 6 seasons as a starter). His career completion percentage is 62.7%, which is pretty good. His TD numbers are much lower but that's more of a product of the Steeler offensive philosophy. His biggest fault is that he does take too many sacks, but he in the top 5-6 of NFL QBs.

He still has many years left so things could change but in the end, he may be like Bradshaw or Aikman, who won a lot of rings, got into the Hall of Fame, but aren't considered among the best QBs.

His int. number and percentages are helped by holding onto the ball so long. A lot of delayed safe routes to the RB and TE who stay into block initially and then when protection finally breaks down, he can dump it to them with a lot of field in front.

Also of course, if he's able to hold the ball, a lot of longer routes and double and triple moves come wide open, so again, helps the int. and pass completion numbers.

Now, the question is, can he be as proficient if he were more disciplined, hitting the WRs on the break or before the break? Or does he have to bother as long as he can keep plays alive?