Will Bonds break Aaron's HR record?

[laurenskye]

Does intentionally spiking the second baseman on a SB attempt count as cheating?

No.

[matthewk]

And I think the "disgrace to the human race" stuff is WAY overboard. Bonds is a jerk, as others have said, but personality-wise he isn't much worse than many other great athletes (or artists or politicians etc etc).

It's my opinion. Did I say he was any worse than a Darryl Strawberry or Palmeiro? Maybe I think they are disgraces as well. Why is that WAY overboard? Maybe because I'm not willing to just sit by and say "oh, weel that's just the way some people are". Why should we tolerate this from anyone. sports figure or otherwise? I happen to think it's sickening the way our culture is beoming more accepting of bad behavior by the day.

[DivotMaker]

I happen to think it's sickening the way our culture is beoming more accepting of bad behavior by the day.

Could not agree MORE with that statement.

[wco81]

First of all, there's no smoking gun, just all circumstantial evidence.

On that basis, you're ready to call someone a disgrace to the human race?

How is cheating in sports worthy of that kind of condemnation? What is Hitler then?

He's an unpleasant, unlikeable individual. But he's not molesting children (that we know of) or killing people.

[pk500]

Bonds is a dick. Nothing more, nothing less. He's also a dick who plays professional sports, which means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If we're looking for disgraces to the human race, I would put people like Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling much more firmly in the pillory than Barry Bonds. They created a scheme that bilked thousands of retirees of their life savings. Bonds stuck a needle in his ass so he could hit a ball farther.

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

There is a very distinct and, to me anyway, obvious difference between cheating by scuffing, corking, gamesmanship etc., and using the types of performance enhancers that Bonds and Giambi have admitted using.

Loading up a baseball or corking a bat is against the laws of baseball but not proscribed by any state or federal criminal code. Posssession of HGH and the high-end doping agents without a valid prescription is illegal. Mere possession of some of the agents which have been allegedly used by others is illegal.

Cheating by scuffing a baseball is a baseball problem. If MLB looked the other way and pitchers could get away with it, there would be a substantial impact on the game but minimal impact on the health of the players. Pitchers could use or not use the spitter as they wished with no meaningful damage. Moreover, there would be little if any impact on the health of society in general if the use of spitters became widespread in the amateur ranks and by young people.

Contrast that with the use of HGH, or even more starkly with the crazy $hit that Bonds has allegedly used. This s*** is flat-out dangerous and it makes demands on the health of the user. Unlike the spitter or corking, in order to keep up with the users, other players would have to place their own health in jeoapardy and break the law in doing so. There are already startling and scary stats about the infiltration of doping into youth sports.

I'm sorry, but I think anyone who fails to see a distinction between these categories is either dumb or intellectually dishonest.

Well, I don't consider myself dumb or intellectually dishonest. I was only thinking about steroids as a baseball problem and from the standpoint of steroid use keeping one out of the HOF. There is the separate question of illegality, but if you're going to say you can't get in the HOF because of using illegal substances, you'd have to remove a lot of people.

The question is: can a known cheater get into the HOF? My answer is: yes, because there is at least one well-known cheater in the Hall. It doesn't matter whether scuffing or spitting is more effective/acceptable than taking steroids, or whether one is illegal or not. I just don't think you can let some cheaters in and keep others out, especially when Bonds has never tested positive for steroids.

I'm not supporting Bonds or condoning his behavior. I find him obnoxious, self-centered, and a bad sport. I just find the focus on him as the poster child for steroid use to be narrow minded. I think singling him out is essentially letting the MLB avoid responsibility for winking at unethical and physically hazardous behavior. They're using the "few bad apples" defense instead of accepting their compliance in a much larger problem.

[grtwhtsk]

Just because one cheater gets in to the HOF doesn't mean others should be allowed to follow. I too am surprised how more and more people seem to be ok with the possibility that Bonds was juiced big time. I also can't stand the, "well he was a sure Hall of Famer before the period of time he may have taken the steroids, so let him in..." Once you cross that line, you have disgraced the game. To think that people stand and cheer this guy really makes me sick. Time for everyone who does to drink the kool aid and get BALCO to take a curtain call!

[reeche]

I'm sorry, but I think anyone who fails to see a distinction between these categories is either dumb or intellectually dishonest.

I fail to see the MAJOR distinction so I guess I'm one or the other. Cheating is cheating whether it' stealing signs, scuffing and doctoring balls, or corking bats. The only real distinction I see is the amount of time and the perceived advantage one gets from it but it's still bypassing the rules of the game. Doesn't make it right of course. Just that Bonds or McGwire strike me as not too ethically or morally different from the cheaters of the past whether they broke federal laws or not or whether the cheating they did caused them bodily harm.

Moot point either way. Dude is going to the hall unless he's banned by baseball which most people assume won't happen. Same with McGwire, and Sosa. The only dude who may not make it for a while is Palmeiro but I find it hard to believe they won't eventually put in a guy who hit 500 HR's.

[matthewk]

Bonds, HItler, Skilling, Lay. They are all disgraces to the human race to me. That does not mean I place Bonds on the same level of evil as Hitler.

Maybe I need to include a "level of disgrace" chart, or a ranking to appease those that seem so upset that I used those words. Maybe we should start making up some new words, so that we don't confuse Bonds with Hitler

[RobVarak]

I suspect that even a simple search for posts I've made containing Bud Selig's name would make it clear that I have no affection for him or MLB. But their "complicity" has been desperately overstated.

Doping became an issue at the exact same time the game was trying to recover from the fallout of the 94 strike, and any meaningful analysis of MLB's behavior has to be viewed in the context of the collective bargaining process.

MLB engaged in a number of deceitful and dishonest tactics in the run up to the labor agreements near the turn of the millenium, and focused all of its efforts on capping labor costs and obtaining more public funding for stadia. Selig and his cronies clearly saw the first few CBAs after the strike as life-or-death affairs. There is no way that they were going to unilaterally force the doping issue in that context. MLB had a laundry list of demands that they needed met, the last thing they were going to do was to make an issue out of something that the media, public and players had no interest in.

And if we're looking for parties to blame outside of the users, why do so few look to MLBPA? How complicity was the union in all of this? How much did they benefit from the offensive explosion? Those of us who deal with unions on a regular basis are cynical enough to expect them to abrogate their alleged duties to protect their members in the name of pursuing economic gain, but it's no less distasteful in this context.

Did MLB benefit from the steroid era? I'm sure that it did, although I think the benefits are greatly overstated. Obviously, the MLBPA benefitted as well. But rather than complicity I see indifference and place only tertiary responsibility with these parties.

The real responsibility for doping in baseball remains with the dopers. These people have chosen to act outside the law and jeopardize their health in an effort to distort the competitive landscape. They have invited a criminal element into MLB clubhouses and acted as dangerous and malicious role models.

Brando, just as there's a distinction between "misdemeanor" cheating and doping, I think it's a pretty clear distinction between illegal recreational drug use (which are inherent performance inhibitors, at least in the long term) and performance enhancers. There's no reason, short of the limited cranial capacity of your basic sportswriter, that one can't categorize these different activities and punish or excuse accordingly.

I would agree that an approach to the problem which focuses exclusively on Bonds is counterproductive. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't go after him with fervor. The combination of his hubris, stupidity and success means that peeling back the curtain and exposing the extent of his cheating would give you the most bang for your P.R. buck in combatting doping.

[JRod]

Matthew, yes do a level a disgrace chart. Kind of like PK's Indy 500 track size chart.


I bet you can fit in 100 Bond's disgrace for every one of Skillings or Lays. It takes 1 million Bonds to equal Hitler's disgrace.

I have to go with Rob. By using steroids you aren't just breaking baseball laws but United States or individual states laws. Putting nails in your cleats or spitting on the ball a baseball rule. If you want to spit on a baseball and throw it down the street you aren't breaking any law.

[pk500]

Bonds, HItler, Skilling, Lay. They are all disgraces to the human race to me. That does not mean I place Bonds on the same level of evil as Hitler.

Maybe I need to include a "level of disgrace" chart, or a ranking to appease those that seem so upset that I used those words. Maybe we should start making up some new words, so that we don't confuse Bonds with Hitler

I guess the general public now tolerates and embraces hyperbole about as much as it does cheaters. Call it the "Bill Walton Effect."

Barry Bonds is a steroid-shooting baseball player. So f*cking what? Bonds is a much bigger dick in my eyes for sleeping around on his wife than for shooting up to launch bombs into McCovey Cove.

Take care,
PK

[mjb2123]

Hard to imagine any player is juiced up this year, after all the political pressure.

There might be other BALCOs but again, does any player or chemist mess around when the heat is on? Or will they more likely wait a few years at least before attempting to cheat again?

Baseball has only implemented an outdated urine test that's easily passable with higher end steroids such as HGH.

Why not still use? If a player is on HGH, they know they aren't getting caught. No way, no how. A blood test is the only way to detect HGH use.

This is what makes Palmeiro such a shock. He had money and he had the means for a higher end steroid. Yet, he took something that's been detectable by a urine test since the mid 90's (same thing Ben Johnson was busted with during the Olympics - that was a blood test however). My guess is he also was using a masking agent that either failed or became outdated itself.

[matthewk]

Bonds, HItler, Skilling, Lay. They are all disgraces to the human race to me. That does not mean I place Bonds on the same level of evil as Hitler.

Maybe I need to include a "level of disgrace" chart, or a ranking to appease those that seem so upset that I used those words. Maybe we should start making up some new words, so that we don't confuse Bonds with Hitler

I guess the general public now tolerates and embraces hyperbole about as much as it does cheaters. Call it the "Bill Walton Effect."

Barry Bonds is a steroid-shooting baseball player. So f*cking what? Bonds is a much bigger dick in my eyes for sleeping around on his wife than for shooting up to launch bombs into McCovey Cove.

Take care,
PK

Not sure what you're getting at with the first part of your post.

When categorizing Bonds as a disgrace to the human race I took into account the steroids, the racism, the lying, sleeping around, the blackmailing, and a lot of other things he's done. It's not because of steroids alone that I think of him this way.

[Brando70]

Rob, good points, and I should say that by saying MLB, I meant the organization and the MLBPA. The union certainly looked the other way and set up a system where you would not be punished for steroid use.

The other side of it is the individual organizations themselves and their responsibility. They certainly knew what was happening, or at least had strong suspicions, and yet did nothing. It seems like they, too, share a good deal of responsibility for failing to act.

And I would support an aggressive effort to keep anyone who took steroids out of the HOF. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa -- conduct a thorough investigation and if you have real proof of use, that's it, no Hall for you. Furthermore, I would be okay with declaring Bonds 73 HR record invalid, but only if they launched investigations into Sosa and McGwire and scrubbed those records too.

So I'm not downplaying steroid use or its taint on the game. I just think the way things are unfolding, we're only going to see the tip of the iceberg addressed.

[wco81]

Well Joe Theisman called Ricky Williams a "disgrace to the game" the other day. For smoking pot.

Is that a lesser disgrace than a disgrace to humanity?

Before you crucify him, you better get something more substantive than "he used the clear creme" or that book of circumstantial "evidence."

There isn't anything more substantive or else he wouldn't be playing the game right now.

Where's the outrage directed to MLB for letting this cheater continue to play?

[pk500]

Not sure what you're getting at with the first part of your post.

I tolerate your hyperbole regarding Bonds -- even mentioning him in the same post with Hitler, Skilling and Lay -- about as much as you tolerate Barry Bonds.

I think he's a dick. I don't think he has destroyed people's lives, as Skilling, Lay and Hitler did. So to even call Bonds a "disgrace to the human race" in the same breath as those Three Doucheketeers is hyperbole on steroids, in my opinion.

Take care,
PK

[Kazuya]

Furthermore, I would be okay with declaring Bonds 73 HR record invalid, but only if they launched investigations into Sosa and McGwire and scrubbed those records too.

That would be silly... how would you do that? Is there a precedent for this happening in team sports? I know they've done it in individual sports, but you can just say it never happened in those cases. Saying 73 home runs suddenly didn't happen has wide-reaching ramifications...

[wco81]

You can't just limit it to the big sluggers either.

You will see a lot of utility players or guys who struggled to hit 10 HRs a year all of a sudden hitting 30 or more.

Also, should some of the pitching numbers be suspect? Maybe some higher than usual strikeout numbers? Of course they don't record radar gun speeds but what about the 100 MPH flamethrowers we had for awhile?

And why limit it to baseball? Armstrong has been under a cloud of suspicion, Marion Jones has been implicated with BALCO (but she hasn't had any records or medals taken away?), and maybe a lot of players over 260 in the NFL can be looked at with suspicion.

[matthewk]

I tolerate your hyperbole regarding Bonds -- even mentioning him in the same post with Hitler, Skilling and Lay -- about as much as you tolerate Barry Bonds.

I think he's a dick. I don't think he has destroyed people's lives, as Skilling, Lay and Hitler did. So to even call Bonds a "disgrace to the human race" in the same breath as those Three Doucheketeers is hyperbole on steroids, in my opinion.

Take care,
PK

If you're going to take that stance, then you need to seperate Hitler from the Enron execs. After all, they aren't responsible for the murder thousands of people.

So what if I group them all together becuase I think they are all disgraces. Like I already stated, I in no way think Bonds is anywhere near the level of evil that Hitler was.

[matthewk]

Well Joe Theisman called Ricky Williams a "disgrace to the game" the other day. For smoking pot.

Is that a lesser disgrace than a disgrace to humanity?

Before you crucify him, you better get something more substantive than "he used the clear creme" or that book of circumstantial "evidence."

There isn't anything more substantive or else he wouldn't be playing the game right now.

Where's the outrage directed to MLB for letting this cheater continue to play?

OK, after this one I'm done. This whole debate is going nowhere.

*takes a deep breath*

1) Yes, Williams is a lesser disgrace. Bonds is a disgrace for a whole lot more than just steroids. Look up a few posts wher I explained it. Williams let down hi teammates, not once, but twice (at least). That does put him in the Disgrace HOF, but only at the bottom rung. Bonds is a few steps up based on his body of work.

2) All I need is enough evidence for MYSELF. Why do you act as if my word is gospel (which is a bit flattering that you think my opinion holds so much weight with the world). I saw his body inflate like the Staty-Puff marshmellow man. I am not a detective on a case, but for me there has been way too many items of evidence, circumstancial of not, for me to believe he is innocent. The US courts need to obide by innocent until proven guilty, not me.

3) Maybe there is more on Baonds than what has been let out. Just because Selig hasn't punished him does not mean he is not guilty.

4) I have plenty of outrage for the MLB, Selig, MLBPA, and every player, trainer, coach, or other person who knows the truth but has kept silent. This thread was about Bonds, not them.

Edited after further review

[Brando70]

Furthermore, I would be okay with declaring Bonds 73 HR record invalid, but only if they launched investigations into Sosa and McGwire and scrubbed those records too.

That would be silly... how would you do that? Is there a precedent for this happening in team sports? I know they've done it in individual sports, but you can just say it never happened in those cases. Saying 73 home runs suddenly didn't happen has wide-reaching ramifications...

If you could prove they took steroids, I would be okay with it. You would simply say that McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds took performance enhancers that invalidate their numbers that year. It would be akin to college teams losing titles when they have been found guilty of breaking rules.

Would it be easy to do? No. But if you conducted a thorough investigation, you could probably decide whether there was enough proof to invalidate their stats for the seasons in question.

There are other players who could also be subjected to the same treatment. Investigate, if there is enough proof, you're stats are invalidated. I would keep the team records and such in tact. However, I think it would be a great idea to dangle the possibility of teams losing pennants, draft picks, or cash for players who cheat. It would really help police the situation.

As for pitchers, it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue, as steroids would be more of an injury recovery aid than a pitching enhancement.

[DivotMaker]

1) Yes, Williams is a lesser disgrace. Bonds is a disgrace for a whole lot more than just steroids. Look up a few posts wher I explained it. Williams let down hi teammates, not once, but twice (at least). That does put him in the Disgrace HOF, but only at the bottom rung. Bonds is a few steps up based on his body of work.

I guess we are entitled to our opinions, but how could Ricky Williams be any "less of a disgrace" than Bonds*? Ricky has failed drug tests FOUR TIMES. Bonds* has not failed a single one. While I do not approve of the way Bonds* tried to IMPROVE his game, he did just that using steroids. Williams has done NOTHING to improve his game and he had some of the most promising physical talent of any running back in recent times coming out of college. IMHO, Williams is a FAR BIGGER disgrace than Bonds* when you stick to the facts.

3) Maybe there is more on Baonds than what has been let out. Just because Selig hasn't punished him does not mean he is not guilty.

Maybe there is. If Selig had the goods, he would have a difficult decision because if he released what he has on Bonds*, then I believe that many would wave the race card and demand that he release what he has on McGwire. Problem is, I don't think they have much if anything on McGwire, etc... so it would be a very ugly and destructive thing. At the end of the day, MLB's credibility is at an all-time low and amazingly people keep showing up to the parks and justifying their poor credibility.

4) I have plenty of outrage for the MLB, Selig, MLBPA, and every player, trainer, coach, or other person who knows the truth but has kept silent. This thread was about Bonds, not them.

I have outrage for anyone who cheats to gain a competitive edge. Today, society has blurred the line between right and wrong so much that it is no longer a line, but a smudgy gray area. It is sad, but we have become a society that is becoming more and more permissive of cheating and bad behavior. I am almost afraid to see where it ends up....

[pk500]

This might add a bit of levity to this thread since it's starting to resemble a trough urinal at halftime of a major sporting event, with piss flying in all directions:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48895

Very funny piece!

Take care,
PK

[Kazuya]

Would it be easy to do? No. But if you conducted a thorough investigation, you could probably decide whether there was enough proof to invalidate their stats for the seasons in question.

There are other players who could also be subjected to the same treatment. Investigate, if there is enough proof, you're stats are invalidated. I would keep the team records and such in tact.

That would be ridiculous... the homers are inextricably linked with everything else. They either happened or they didn't happen. You'll have NL pitchers filing complaints that they want their career ERAs lowered because of illegal homers hit by Bonds and Co over the last decade. Why shouldn't they, they use their stats as bargaining tools for their very livelihood in contract negotiations. Maybe it'll be like a tax credit, let's see... if you are a NL picther and you pitched between 1998 and 2004.. you qualify for an ERA credit of 0.10 for homers clubbed by Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa!

If Pujols clubs number 62 this year, he's going to run around the bases like he's the man? They're going to re-celebrate 62? How do you think that's going to go over? How hollow would it be to be running around the bases with streamers flying, your mug on the Jumbotron saying you're the first steroid free guy to hit 62? I would tell them to shove that celebration up their ass...

People are just going to have to accept that those homers were hit and you can't take them off the board. Nobody wants some hollow-ass steroid free, second-time's-the-charm record. Somebody's just going to have to suck it up and club 74... go Albert!