OT: Wanna know why Kerry lost Ohio?

[JackB1]

Leebo, you have to allow me a "mourning period" before
I start coming around

"hopefully after this election, we can all start coming together in
some way that reduces all these things that divide us right now.
after all, it's "us against them"."

- JackB1


You're not off to a good start with the "coming together" part, Jack.

[Badgun]

Indeed, Matt. And what's even more depressing is that the Republican religious right can't seem to wrap its head around the fact that there are religious people who attend services weekly, like me, who detest Bush.

The religious right sees this as a black-and-white issue: If you're religious and moral, you must have voted for Bush. If you're atheist and amoral, you must have voted for Kerry or someone else.

It's not that simple, especially if you believe in separation of church and state as fervently as I do.

Take care,
PK

pk,
Regardless of how anyone spins it, this election was a vote for morality. There was a full page ad in our paper on Sunday urging anyone that believed in taking a stand to prevent any further corruprtion of our country's morals to go out and vote for Bush. Here is the text of that ad:

---- 1962 Prayer was removed from America’s public schools.


---- 1961 every state in America had sodomy laws, July 8, 2003 by a vote of six to three the Supreme Court declared all sodomy laws unconstitutional.


---- Since Roe vs. Wade in 1973 over 44 million babies have been aborted, 1.3 million each year, 3,600 each day, one baby every 25 seconds.


---- 77% of Americans supported the public display of the Ten Commandments in Montgomery, Alabama, but on November 14, 2003 the monument was removed.


---- 2004 MTV announced their political plan to register twenty million new voters. In the 2000 election, over four million eligible, evangelical, christian voters failed to participate in the election process.


---- May 17, 2004 the first, same-sex marriage was performed in Massachusetts. This Tuesday the legalization of same-sex marriage will be on the ballots of eleven states.


---- America is swiftly becoming one nation under "gods" rather than one nation under GOD,

attempts have already been made to remove His name from our Pledge of Allegiance, and to erase His name from our currency.




America has drifted so far from where we started. Our constitution has been molested by liberal legislators. We’ve broken the wills of those who founded our nation. The Mayflower Compact held as its motto, "To the glory of God and the advancement of the christian faith". God may be removed from our culture, but He cannot be removed from our history. We cannot sit by and allow the ACLU to be the voice of America. Christians MUST break the silence and take a stand.

I think ads like this were very effective in getting the Christians and even non Christians who just were sick and tired of watching liberal legislation make a mockery of morals in this country. Powerful stuff.

[webdanzer]

Leebo, you have to allow me a "mourning period" before
I start coming around

If that's how you 'mourn,' Jack, I hope to never be at a funeral with you.

"It should have been someone else in that coffin. Like your f***in b*tch sister. That whore!"

[Leebo33]

Leebo, you have to allow me a "mourning period" before
I start coming around

OK, that sounds good

I voted for Kerry too, but I am not nearly as liberal (and thus upset) as you are. I am rooting for Bush to succeed that's all I know.

[pk500]

Bad:

Oh, I agree with you 100 percent that this was an election about morality. The polls and the vote indicate that.

My beef is that morality should be taught and administered in the home and church, not in the halls of government.

Hey, I'm a big-time opponent of abortion. Not for religious reasons but because I believe life begins at conception, so abortion is murder. I also don't believe in same-sex marriage, that for religious reasons.

But inserting God into the public domain, such as public schools and the display of the Ten Commandments, is wrong. America is supposed an inclusive country, and there are many Americans who don't believe in God or the Christian God. So therefore, politics should remain agnostic.

That doesn't mean that religious leaders can't have a religious or moral compass; I hope they do. But it does mean that those religious and moral compasses should not become part of policy or legislation.

No spin in my position. I'm just disturbed that a majority of Americans don't believe in the separation of church and state anymore.

Take care,
PK

[matthewk]

Ah yes Bad, our wonderful highly moral Christian forefathers who came to America and wiped out the native americans so they could take over the land for themselves. How very Christian of them. Why is it that we are so proud that we bascially invaded this land and instead of living with the people already here, we decided they needed to be forced out?

[FatPitcher]

I think it was about morality because that was the only area where the two guys were significantly different.

[JackB1]

Web, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm not "blaming" Christians for voting for Bush. If they voted for him for reasons that were consistent with their beliefs, then at least I could "understand" it. They seek out the one major issue (abortion stance) and only focus on that. Funny thing is that "abortion" is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. Also, the Bible says "thou shalt not kill"...it doesn't say "killing is OK for "premeptive war" or that "killing is OK if you do it based on faulty intelligence" or even "killing is OK under the "guise" of war". It's not OK......period.
Even Jesus forgave those that beat him to death on the cross. The one good thing about having Bush around for 4 more years, is that we get to expose him for what he truly is.

bottom line is religion SHOULD NOT be part of our political system.
it goes against everything democracy stands for. if were were all one religion then it would be a different story, but we are not!

The religious right sees this as a black-and-white issue: If you're religious and moral, you must have voted for Bush. If you're atheist and amoral, you must have voted for Kerry or someone else.

You sure you don't mean liberal left, PK? 'American taliban', Jack basically blaming christians for voting bush? At least on this board, it's the left that is saying the religious can't think for themselves.

[Airdog]

Ah yes Bad, our wonderful highly moral Christian forefathers who came to America and wiped out the native americans so they could take over the land for themselves. How very Christian of them. Why is it that we are so proud that we bascially invaded this land and instead of living with the people already here, we decided they needed to be forced out?

Shhhhhhhhh. Just uphold it.

[webdanzer]

If they voted for him for reasons that were consistent with their beliefs, then at least I could "understand" it.

Jack, I won't argue that we're not a nation full of hypocrites. I think we are, and it's everywhere. Why just blame the Christians? And what if neither of the two parties fall in line with your beliefs? What do the people who believe that abortion is killing and Bush's war is killing do? They'd have to make a hard decision. Neither Kerry nor Bush is necessarily a Dogmatically dictated decision if you believe that all killing is wrong.

Anyway, I think one of the most challenging things a person can do for personal improvement is to truly examine one's thoughts and beliefs and try to be the most internally consistant and least hypocritical as possible.

But that's hard, which is why hypocrites abound.

[wco81]

The Taliban believed in a theocracy, where religious values dictate govt. policies. They want to impose those values, whether or not others believe in them as well.

The people who voted on the basis of the gay marriage question, abortion and other moral/cultural issues are basically demanding the same. That is, for policies to cater to their beliefs and for those policies to be universally imposed on people.

Yeah "Christian Taliban" is an inflammatory term. But it's apt, just as calling people who don't like technology Luddites. "Taliban" is in the cultural zeitgeist and it's the best shorthand for "theocrats" that we have.

[wco81]

Bush will claim a mandate because in 2000, he proceeded with the agenda, as if he was elected by some overwhelming majority.

If the EV total gets over 300, some of his supporters will use the term "landslide" and will note that he got the highest raw vote total ever.

And people who go to church regularly voted for Bush. That's a simple fact. I would guess most people are not interested in civic class distinctions about church and state any more. They want their values enacted and imposed. These are mostly evangelicals but they also apply to Muslims and other Christian denominations.

Bush probably got higher support than in 2000 from non-prosletyzing denominations and religions, like Catholics and Jews.

To all these religious people, there is a higher authority or wisdom than the Founding Fathers who advanced the notion of the separation of Church and State.

[kevinpars]

Where do the 3 DUI arrests between Bush and Cheney fit into the whole 'moral values' thing???

[Brando70]

Allow me to have a little fun with history, since that was my original profession of choice.

pk,
Regardless of how anyone spins it, this election was a vote for morality. There was a full page ad in our paper on Sunday urging anyone that believed in taking a stand to prevent any further corruprtion of our country's morals to go out and vote for Bush. Here is the text of that ad:

---- 1962 Prayer was removed from America’s public schools.

Yet while we had prayer in our schools, we didn't have blacks in them. Ah, the power of prayer.

---- 1961 every state in America had sodomy laws, July 8, 2003 by a vote of six to three the Supreme Court declared all sodomy laws unconstitutional.

We used to have anti-miscegenation laws, too, during our Christian heyday.

---- Since Roe vs. Wade in 1973 over 44 million babies have been aborted, 1.3 million each year, 3,600 each day, one baby every 25 seconds.

Every life is sacred, except for the criminals, which is why those darned activist justices allowed the death penalty to be reintroduced shortly after allowing abortion to be legal.

---- 77% of Americans supported the public display of the Ten Commandments in Montgomery, Alabama, but on November 14, 2003 the monument was removed.

Read the f***in Bill of Rights. The Ten Commandments are certainly important, and I think very right, but the first commandment alone violates the first Amendment, because it ORDERS you to worship the Judeo-Christian God. It has no business in a government building because of that. I'd rather see the Eight Beatitudes instead.

---- America is swiftly becoming one nation under "gods" rather than one nation under GOD, attempts have already been made to remove His name from our Pledge of Allegiance, and to erase His name from our currency.

News flash, Badgun. The Baptist minister who wrote the Pledge never had "under God" in it. That was added in 1954, and done more to separate us from the Communists than to proclaim our devotion to Christianity.

America has drifted so far from where we started. Our constitution has been molested by liberal legislators. We’ve broken the wills of those who founded our nation. The Mayflower Compact held as its motto, "To the glory of God and the advancement of the christian faith". God may be removed from our culture, but He cannot be removed from our history. We cannot sit by and allow the ACLU to be the voice of America. Christians MUST break the silence and take a stand.

Yes, because when we were a more Christian nation, we had:

--slavery
--subordination of women
--lesgislated racism
--witchcraft trials
--gross exploitation of workers
--a genocidal Indian removal policy
--political repression of anyone daring to be a socialist

Good times, good times.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone's faith. I believe religion, when used properly, is powerful and good. However, the idea that public profession of faith equals public morality flies in the face of not only our own history, but the history of many other cultures before us. I don't want to see religion driven from the public sphere, but I don't want the public sphere ruled by religion. I agree with Leebo that our evangelical politicians are not the Taliban. We are far more civilized. But they are still pushing a form of theocracy on this country.

[dbdynsty25]

Where do the 3 DUI arrests between Bush and Cheney fit into the whole 'moral values' thing???

LOL...

[anchester]

this is the most liberal, anti bush board i have ever seen. All yall do is criticize bush. This is what i hear:
1) our economy is in bad shape (reality, by far best economy in the world, near 5% unemployment, sure it not like the artificial bubble 90s but anybody with sense knows that was unsustainable)
2) Iraq mess will continue (sure, but would Kerry do better). Iraq is a prime example of how unstable that part of the world is. We may not have done it right, but give credit for trying something instead of wishy washy do nothing libs.
3) Bush won b/c of crazed religious right people voting for him. i am not religious, but why criticize one group. What about DC who votes 90% democratic. That is insane. DC would vote in a cocaine snuffing, excon if he were democratic. This is just another example of you guys buying the media BS last night.
4) Deficit soaring. Sure, but Kerry's plan is worse. Tax small business. Socialize medicine. This is the worst plan to get us out of deficits.

Bush sucks as all politicians running for president suck. It is impossible to do the right thing b/c of media pressures and ignorant, uniformed public.

However, any party that supports self-reliance, take responsibililty, less gov't will always have more legitamacy than tax, spend, sue, and criticize but don't come up with solutions party of the democrats.

[Badgun]

Ah yes Bad, our wonderful highly moral Christian forefathers who came to America and wiped out the native americans so they could take over the land for themselves. How very Christian of them. Why is it that we are so proud that we bascially invaded this land and instead of living with the people already here, we decided they needed to be forced out?

Bitter much?

[dbdynsty25]

Ah yes Bad, our wonderful highly moral Christian forefathers who came to America and wiped out the native americans so they could take over the land for themselves. How very Christian of them. Why is it that we are so proud that we bascially invaded this land and instead of living with the people already here, we decided they needed to be forced out?

Bitter much?

How do you get bitterness from a quote that is 100% accurate?

[pk500]

However, any party that supports self-reliance, take responsibililty, less gov't will always have more legitamacy than tax, spend, sue, and criticize but don't come up with solutions party of the democrats.

Anchester:

You're right: The Libertarian Party does have more legitimacy than the Republicans or Democrats.

Because the Republicans don't support self-reliance. Otherwise, non-military discretionary spending wouldn't have skyrocketed under Bush, as much of that discretionary spending is used for entitlement programs.

Because the Republicans don't support less government. Otherwise, Bush wouldn't have formed another Federal department, the Homeland Security Department, wouldn't have added more freedom-robbing and restrictive laws to the books in the form of the Patriot Act and wouldn't have overseen a bigger increase in non-military discretionary Federal spending than during Clinton's terms. Republicans also wouldn't support amendments for religious and freedom of speech issues, such as gay marriage and flag burning.

So, man, you are so right. The Libertarian Party does have its sh*t together, no doubt.

Seriously, take 10 minutes and go to http://www.lp.org/issues/ . I think you'll be surprised by how many of these LP planks you agree with.

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

However, any party that supports self-reliance, take responsibililty, less gov't ....

And which party would that be? The party that says it can't think of any mistakes it has made? The party that is actually spending a ton while cutting taxes? I hope you voted Libertarian, anchester, because that's the party your're describing.

I'm done with this. Hats off to the Republicans, they kicked some ass. They certainly know how to campaign.

[kevinpars]

You know, when you look at them closely, the nature and methods of Christian fundamentalism is not really all that different from other kinds fundamentalism.

Killing a doctor who performs abortion to 'save a life'? Flying a plane into a building to make a point?? Both seem pretty sick to me.

Telling the parents of a gay son who died of AIDS that their boy will spent eternity in hell? Yeah, that is taking real high moral ground.

If that is what being 'born again' is all about, I will stay dead.

People who 'know' what is 'right'? To me, they are fanatics, no matter what they believe.

What a weird country we live in! Settled by Puritans who left Europe because of religious persecution and yet they started doing the same damn thing to people here the minute the boats landed.

I just don't understand why people feel like it is their moral right to stick their nose in other people's business.

I guess I am crazy to think that spending time and money to put an initiative on the ballot about the true definition of marriage could be much better spent on creating greenspace, providing more money for our schools, improving health conditions for the poor. But I guess it is no more crazy than demanding a woman come to term but not providing them with any help once the child is born and then when the kid grows up a psychopath, putting them on death row.

[Leebo33]

You know, when you look at them closely, the nature and methods of Christian fundamentalism is not really all that different from other kinds fundamentalism.

Absolutely true. I'm sure that the vast majority of the people that voted for Bush are not extremists just like the vast majority of Islamic people are not terrorists.

[Dave]

Word up. I don't need people taking the "high ground" by demeaning my beliefs.

Organized religion has always frightened me though. I've moved from the Marxian view of it and found my own beliefs about it.

[wco81]

You know, when you look at them closely, the nature and methods of Christian fundamentalism is not really all that different from other kinds fundamentalism.

Absolutely true. I'm sure that the vast majority of the people that voted for Bush are not extremists just like the vast majority of Islamic people are not terrorists.

They may not be the majority but they provided the margin of difference in a lot of states and the overall margin of difference.

Again, it was no accident as Rove deliberately targeted them instead of the moderate swing voters.

[Jackdog]

Jack forget Ohio. WTF happened in your state? Ohio was close. Florida was a blowout!