The final letter that determines the fate of the NHL season

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:51 pm

Bottomline...a business cannot pay out 75% to salaries....no business can and hope to survive long term. The union is retarded. The offer they declined last night will be no where close the offer they will eventually accept because the owners will make sure of that. The players will never recuperate their lost wages and are not looking at having a healthy league. F#ck i'm bitter right now.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:51 pm

The players unions in these sports always say they are protected not themselves, but the players who will come after them. Can Goodenow and the player reps look at themselves today and truly believe that today?

As you guys have said, the number will not increase from where it was at this morning.

What about all of the corporate contracts for tickets and sponsorships that now have to be fully refunded? I would like to see how many of those companies are now finished with hockey completely. I know the Timberwolves have let it be known that they are very willing to deal with people who had previously worked with the Wild. I bet this isn't the only case of that happening.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:36 pm

Bettman already said in the press conference today that the deal proposed last night and this morning is off the table. He also said any future deal will be linked to revenue, something that was removed from last night and this morning's deal and something that would have benefitted the players.

The union and the players blew it: They'll never get a deal as good as was proposed to them last night and this morning.

The aura of Bob Goodenow being one of the most shrewd and tough sports labor negotiators is gone. Bettman, who was seen by many as a boob, looks like the firm, decisive one now.

If I was an NHL player, my faith in the NHLPA and, in particular, Bob Goodenow, would be very shaken right now. The owners offered the players a good deal this morning, and the union rejected it.

Typical union bullsh*t. The mantra of any labor union is "pay us more for less work."

Unions were needed in the Samuel Gompers-sweat shop era, when the might of America was based on industry and factories with unskilled workers. Now that America is more of a high-tech and service-based economy filled with competition for skilled workers, unions are an anachronism that hurt American competitiveness in the world economy.

F*ck unions. F*ck each and every one of them. I also have a personal vendetta against unions due to what one tried to do to my father around 25 years ago, but that's a story I'll keep to myself.

Take care,
PK

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:45 pm

i'd be interested to hear that story, pk.

i was in a union once...had to be to work at this f***in grocery store. i got to pay into the damn thing and GOT NOTHING in return.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:01 pm

Bettman, who was seen by many as a boob, looks like the firm, decisive one now.

So he's a firm boob?

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:06 pm

F*ck unions. F*ck each and every one of them

F#cking A

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:49 pm

Sudz wrote:i'd be interested to hear that story, pk.

i was in a union once...had to be to work at this f***ing grocery store. i got to pay into the damn thing and GOT NOTHING in return.

Reader's Digest version: My father sold steel for a Syracuse distributor for 35 years. In the late 70s, the warehouse workers threatened to unionize. My father helped negotiate a pay raise and benefit increase for the warehouse guys in return for their promise not to unionize and not to strike.

Done deal -- for about three months. Then, even though they got those concessions from my dad, the c*cksuckers unionized and went on strike anyways right away. My father vowed to starve out each and every one of those c*ckroaches, and he did.

It took 13 months for my dad to starve every one of those assh*oles off the picket line. And during those 13 months, my father worked damn near every day from 7:30 a.m.-5 p.m. selling steel and then from 5:30-10 p.m. helping to cut and pack it in the warehouse.

Those union f*cking pricks caused my dad to work 80-hour weeks AFTER he had improved their wages and benefits. My dad and a few of his other front-office colleagues nearly killed themselves keeping the place going before the union was killed.

F*ck unions. F*ck each and every one of them.

Take care,
PK

mobiggins · Post by **mobiggins** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:52 pm

I think some industries need unions more than others.

Pro hockey is one of the last things that should need a union.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:46 pm

I was listening to CBC radio interview Ron McLean (Hockey Night in Canada) and another analyst and their view was that the players pretty much gave the owners everything they wanted and that the owners are just out to make the player's bleed and crush the owners. The players have made alot of concessions and the owners, up until the last moment, didn't make any concessions at all. If the owners had really wanted a deal they could have made one.

Food for thought.

Best wishes,

Doug

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:15 pm

mobiggins wrote:I think some industries need unions more than others.

Pro hockey is one of the last things that should need a union.

Correct. The jobs that need unions don't have them and the one's that need them less tend to have the strongest. Sports athletes who make millions nowadays have the least use for unions but have the strongest ones for that very reason. The regular guy who works some of the more blue collar back breaking jobs tend to have the weaker unions or none at all. You can't paint corporation or unions with a broad bush. You have poor examples of each.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:41 pm

I've never been in a union. But if it wasn't for unions, I shudder to think what working conditions would be like today.

In the blogsphere, a guy who left Microsoft to join Google gained notoriety by blogging about his experiences. He compared the culture, the benefits, the compensation, the strategies of the two companies, which are going to be bitter competitors.

People noted that some of his first blog entries had been changed or deleted. He denied there was a problem and went to blogging for a couple more weeks.

Then he was fired. No official reason was given but the suspicion is that Google didn't like his blogging. Apparently, more states including CA are adopting labor laws which permit employers to terminate employees with little or no cause.

Unions are the sole source of labor laws and regulations favorable to employees. But all this anti-union fervor is just doing the bidding of employers. The result is that in the last 2 decades, the laws have tipped heavily in favor of businesses.

Hard-won benefits are now being taken away, little by little. These aren't perqs that unions extracted when they were ascendant. These are necessities like health insurance, for which those lucky to have coverage are paying more and more out of pocket each year.

Rob81Lakes · Post by **Rob81Lakes** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:24 pm

Now that I've come down from my initial anger and bitterness over this whole mess, I'm actually hopeful that everything will eventually get worked out. The US market will suffer hard at first, but I think Canada will benefit from the get-go once the league resumes. The US will likely lose some franchises (please God, not Phoenix), but smaller markets in Canada, such as Winnipeg, will likely emerge.

It will be years before the US recovers from this, but I'm counting on the stronger market in Canada to pull everyone through. Hopefully, American media will put forth a better effort to promote the sport (ESPN...you listening?)

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:54 pm

my apologies to the dozens of hockey fans in the US.

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:45 am

Go Lightning !!!

Rob81Lakes · Post by **Rob81Lakes** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:32 am

Something big may be in the works. My local NBC news said a number of players have come forward and that a written proposal accepting a $45 mil cap will be presented to the League in the morning. They called it an 'exclusive' story.

Care to be optimistic? Again.

mobiggins · Post by **mobiggins** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:34 am

There's an interesting article on yahoo sports breaking down the league franchise by franchise. In summary, according to them, the teams most likely to fold are Anaheim, Carolina and Florida, with Atlanta, Edmonton, Nashville, the Islanders, Phoenix and Pittsburgh on the fence and could go either way. The rest of the franchises they deem are probably going to come out okay after a long lockout.

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:25 pm

that was pretty much my list as well...except for the isles.

and PK...interesting read. that really sucks. THOSE f***ers.

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:39 pm

from slam.ca

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:27 pm

Sudz wrote:THOSE f***ERS.

My mantra pertaining to anything regarding labor unions! I've also poured concrete for a non-union outfit on jobs with union laborers, and the stories I could tell you about those lazy, overpaid union f*ckers ...

Take care,
PK

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:31 pm

i had to join a union to work in a f***in grocery store. i paid the dues...got NOTHING IN RETURN. worked full time....no insurance, no vacation....and made minimum wage. i'm sure there are good unions out there....but...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:45 pm

A couple of quick personal union tales:

My wife's stepfather was a union electrician for his whole career. During the 1990s, he was lucky if he worked six months per year but swore blind loyalty to the union, paying his dues every year even though the union hardly ever got him much work.

Same with my wife's uncle, a longtime union ironworker. The guy never worked during the early 90s, and his wife had to work extra hours to feed the family. But he swore by the union and always said how much it did for working men like him. Further proof that unions are totemistic cults that brainwash their members into thinking they're looking out for the workers. Bullsh*t.

I poured concrete for two summers during college as a non-union laborer. We worked in a mixed shop while pouring a parking garage at a major shopping mall in downstate N.Y.

One day, we were pouring a ramp in 95-degree heat with high humidity. I started to hyperventilate due to the heat, as pouring a ramp is a b*tch, even on a nice day. My foreman yelled at a union guy to give me the paper bag that held his lunch so I could catch my breath. The union guy just shrugged his shoulders because he was on a "coffee break." My foreman screamed at the guy to give me his bag, and the lazy f*ck finally did it.

On another mixed shop job, there was this union guy named Scotty. He was the most incorrigible, lazy f*ck I've ever seen in any job. Took coffee breaks when he wanted to, directly disobeyed foremen, hardly ever worked, etc. My non-union foreman warned him one day that he was about to get fired. Scotty replied, to his face: "Go ahead. What the f*ck do I care? The union will put me to work tomorrow."

My foreman fired him that day, and sure enough, we learned through the vine that industrious Scotty was working the very next day on a bridge restoration job.

I hate unions.

Take care,
PK

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:52 pm

that sucks.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:39 pm

Canada needs to start it's own league. The CHL. The CBC would be all over it. And it would thrive IMO.

East
-------
Halifax
Quebec
Ottawa
Montreal
Toronto

West
--------
Windsor
Winnipeg
Calgary
Edmonton
Vancouver

It could be like the EPL of hockey.

Damn this sucks.

rubba19 · Post by **rubba19** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:47 pm

Nothing for Hamilton, JackDog? Damn, you're cold

rubba19 · Post by **rubba19** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:59 pm

I'm not as anti-union as some, as I have seen good one and bad ones. Obviously the NHLPA is pretty bad.

Anyway, the NHLPA was and still is bargaining from a position of weakness. They can complain all they want about giving more and more, but their lack of understanding of simple economics has them all delusional and egocentric. No earth-shattering news for us, but the players must have missed that memo.

Face it NHL players, you lost. Lost big. Enjoy your circa 1979 salaries!