OT - most athletes really are morons

[F308GTB]

So it looks like the Astros lost Beltran. Offers from Houston have been floating all over the place and some have been suspect. But let's take a look (from the Houston Chronicle):

"Houston offered a guaranteed $100 million, seven-year contract, which included a $14 million option for 2012 with a $2 million buyout, an Astros executive said Sunday on condition of anonymity. If the option were exercised, the deal would have been worth $112 million over eight seasons."

"A day after the All-Star outfielder let the deadline to re-sign with Houston pass, the Mets worked today to structure a $119 million, seven-year contract that will include an $11 million signing bonus, a lawyer involved in the talks said on condition of anonymity."

I'm assuming the signing bonus is part of the $119 million. If so, that's $19 million more. However, New York has higher property values as well as state income tax. Your dollar goes a lot farther in H-town and Texas still has no income tax. In the end the offers are probably comparable in terms of take home pay, though we don't know how each deal is structured and how much money is in later years. Nonetheless, it just shows that players aren't too concerned about being on a quality team (I think we'd agree that even with the Mets getting Martinez, Houston is a better club, especially over the last decade) but still have a humongous ego by getting a fat contract, even if it means it gets eaten up by taxes and higher expenses.

I only wish I were an idiot and could jump, throw, pass, hit, or any other meaningless "skill." This is why baseball sucks, and it's why I watched maybe 1 or 2 games last year. I can only hope baseball has contraction in the coming years and forces salaries down to where they should be. Lower salaries --> lower ticket prices --> I may be a fan again. Until then, screw the MLB. Go Owls, go Cougars, go Pearland High School, go local Little League.

[RobVarak]

Of course they are. That's the reason that 99.6% of all interviews and "insight" from players and former players is garbage. The funny thing is that they're often morons about the very sport they are playing. These people are freakishly "gifted" and focused individuals. They suffer from a serious forest and trees problem because their job is to do their job and not necessarily think about it. There are, of course, exceptions, but they're rare.

This is also the same reason that the oft-levelled criticism of lay-people "that they never played the game" is a complete joke. Front-office people, good broadcasters and fans often have a better understanding of the game, its history and talent evaluation than the players themselves.

[Dave]

Do you ever read Tuesday Morning QB on NFL.com by Gregg Easterbrook? He's done some good analysis of free agents and their offseason travails. Can't remember specifics, but many of them include an athlete being insulted by an offer by their current team, rejecting that offer, then being stuck with an offer for millions less than they would have made.

Hasn't happened yet, but Latrell Sprewell will likely have this happen--he rejected a 2 yr. $8+ mil per year before the season, leading to the infamous "feed my family" comments. Considering he seemed to age in dog years during the offseason, he'll be lucky to get the mid-level exception next year.

These guys want the big number on the deal, income tax be damned.

At least the Astros have a chance, I'm very frightened with the soon-to-be-started Johan Santana negotiations up here.

[Kazuya]

Do you ever read Tuesday Morning QB on NFL.com by Gregg Easterbrook? He's done some good analysis of free agents and their offseason travails. Can't remember specifics, but many of them include an athlete being insulted by an offer by their current team, rejecting that offer, then being stuck with an offer for millions less than they would have made.

Hasn't happened yet, but Latrell Sprewell will likely have this happen--he rejected a 2 yr. $8+ mil per year before the season, leading to the infamous "feed my family" comments. Considering he seemed to age in dog years during the offseason, he'll be lucky to get the mid-level exception next year.

Yes... Sprewell really messed up because he is playing so poorly now. I don't think he's been a particularly good player for some time now, but he definitely energized the Wolves last year. Frankly, he wasn't worth what the Wolves offered either.
I believe another person who has made similarly bad moves is Derek Lowe.

[jLp vAkEr0]

7 years $119 mil + 11mil signing bonus.


GO METS!!!!!!!!!!

[dbdynsty25]

7 years $119 mil + 11mil signing bonus.


GO METS!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing like getting paid 17 mil a year to finish in at best, 2nd place in your division.

BTW...players would much rather play in NY given similar money. Supposedly there is more exposure there...uhhh...just a little bit more.

[jLp vAkEr0]

Nothing like getting paid 17 mil a year to finish in at best, 2nd place in your division.

BTW...players would much rather play in NY given similar money. Supposedly there is more exposure there...uhhh...just a little bit more.

We'll see. I'm pretty sure Minaya hasn't come this far to just stop. He knows the bullpen needs help. Plus they need to address 1st base. I'm just happy my boy Beltran is joining my fav team. Don't hate!

[dbdynsty25]

We'll see. I'm pretty sure Minaya hasn't come this far to just stop. He knows the bullpen needs help. Plus they need to address 1st base. I;m just happy my boy Beltran is joining my fav team. Don't hate!

I'm not hating bro...you know as well as anyone that when the Mets bring in big names w/ big contracts, bad things happen. The Mets are the Dodgers of the east coast. And I'm not hating by saying the Mets will end up in 2nd place, at best. That's 13 years of experience speaking.

[jLp vAkEr0]

I'm not hating bro...you know as well as anyone that when the Mets bring in big names w/ big contracts, bad things happen. The Mets are the Dodgers of the east coast. And I'm not hating by saying the Mets will end up in 2nd place, at best. That's 13 years of experience speaking.

Bad examples IMO. Mets have never gone for a young star entering his prime.

[wco81]

Do pro athletes get paid salary in one lump sum?

Or when basketball and baseball players play road games in Canada, do they pay Canadian income taxes?

I'm sure the agents advising them would run down the tax advantages.

Then again, maybe they get their 15% based on the gross and are taxed where they do business.

[dbdynsty25]

I'm pretty sure that the NBA players have to play canadian taxes when they play in Canada. I remember hearing some things about it. They have to pay the state tax wherever they play, even if it's in Canada/Japan/wherever.

[Kazuya]

Good grief, that Beltran deal is crazy... Beltran *might* be a tiny, tiny bit better than J.D. Drew (although I'd hate to have to prove it). But to get that kind of deal in today's market? Man, the Mets are either gonna go boom or bust...

[dbdynsty25]

Kaz...you will never become a scout...NEVER.

Beltran is so much better than JD Drew it's ridiculous. I guess you could KIND of put them close together because of their numbers last year, but that was the one and only year Drew was healthy. Beltran has gotten progressively better each year...he steals more bases and drives in more runs (for worse teams usually, KC). Drew is a pretty damn good ballplayer with a lot of tools...Beltran is just on another level.

[jLp vAkEr0]

Good grief, that Beltran deal is crazy... Beltran *might* be a tiny, tiny bit better than J.D. Drew (although I'd hate to have to prove it). But to get that kind of deal in today's market? Man, the Mets are either gonna go boom or bust...

WHAT!!!!?


Oh yeah, Nene is a bust who no team desires.

[Kazuya]

Kaz...you will never become a scout...NEVER.

Beltran is so much better than JD Drew it's ridiculous. I guess you could KIND of put them close together because of their numbers last year, but that was the one and only year Drew was healthy. Beltran has gotten progressively better each year...he steals more bases and drives in more runs (for worse teams usually, KC). Drew is a pretty damn good ballplayer with a lot of tools...Beltran is just on another level.

I will definitely never become a scout... but I've forgotten more about baseball than you ever knew. Hell, when I drink a beer I lose more knowledge than you ever knew.

All we have is stats. You are not a scout and neither am I. I automatically assume that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground and you'd better do the same for me. Stats are clear and in the book. They may not tell the whole story, but it's better than me relying on your beer-gut, armchair GM.

Here are the facts: Drew has *career* (not just last season as you seem to hang your unknowledgeable hat on) better statistics than Beltran in OBP, BA, SLG, and OPS. Only a moron would use stats of opportunities like RBI to compare two players. I guess Beltran is better than Bonds... he had more RBI's.

I will say that Beltran is the better base stealer (apparently, Beltran is the all-time leading base stealer in MLB history, % wise). But Drew is excellent too, with a career % near 75. They are both great fielders but neither of them have ever won a Gold Glove so you can't go around saying one is clearly better than the other.

I could go on with Park Factor and OPS+, which also favor Drew, but it's unnecessary for this discussion.

[Kazuya]

Good grief, that Beltran deal is crazy... Beltran *might* be a tiny, tiny bit better than J.D. Drew (although I'd hate to have to prove it). But to get that kind of deal in today's market? Man, the Mets are either gonna go boom or bust...

WHAT!!!!?


Oh yeah, Nene is a bust who no team desires.

Would you like to make your case, or are you just going to go hide in the corner like you did in the Nene discussion? It's very simple, just give me some facts... they are out there. I can make both arguments very easily, I just choose to make the Drew argument at this time.

[bkrich83]

Kaz...you will never become a scout...NEVER.

Beltran is so much better than JD Drew it's ridiculous. I guess you could KIND of put them close together because of their numbers last year, but that was the one and only year Drew was healthy. Beltran has gotten progressively better each year...he steals more bases and drives in more runs (for worse teams usually, KC). Drew is a pretty damn good ballplayer with a lot of tools...Beltran is just on another level.

I will definitely never become a scout... but I've forgotten more about baseball than you ever knew. Hell, when I drink a beer I lose more knowledge than you ever knew.

All we have is stats. You are not a scout and neither am I. I automatically assume that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground and you'd better do the same for me. Stats are clear and in the book. They may not tell the whole story, but it's better than me relying on your beer-gut, armchair GM.

Here are the facts: Drew has *career* (not just last season as you seem to hang your unknowledgeable hat on) better statistics than Beltran in OBP, BA, SLG, and OPS. Only a moron would use stats of opportunities like RBI to compare two players. I guess Beltran is better than Bonds... he had more RBI's.

I will say that Beltran is the better base stealer (apparently, Beltran is the all-time leading base stealer in MLB history, % wise). But Drew is excellent too, with a career % near 75. They are both great fielders but neither of them have ever won a Gold Glove so you can't go around saying one is clearly better than the other.

I could go on with Park Factor and OPS+, which also favor Drew, but it's unnecessary for this discussion.

There is no doubt the Mets overpaid for Beltran. I have heard 4 seperate baseball people say on TV, that if you look at the numbers Beltran is a very good player, but his numbers don't add up to $100 Million dollar + contract. I tend to agree with them. Although obviously putting up those numbers and being a Centerfielder added to his value. I also think the Mets are desperate to make a splash and try to revive some fan support.

Beltran is a fine player, but I don't think he's yet a great player, and I don't know if he's worth the money given to him. But if someone is going to offer it to you, you might as well take it.

[RobVarak]

I'm pretty sure that the NBA players have to play canadian taxes when they play in Canada. I remember hearing some things about it. They have to pay the state tax wherever they play, even if it's in Canada/Japan/wherever.

That is correct.

[Kazuya]

Here's a good article defending the Beltran signing http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... -the-mets/

Thanks for the link.

Drew's injuries have robbed him of over 1000 plate appearances, that's over a third of Drew's career. This, coupled with the fact that Beltran is 18 months younger, factors into Beltran's megabucks contract. Staying healthy is partially luck but frequent injuries over a period of six seasons reduces a player's value.

All of which should have made Beltran maybe a million bucks a year richer. But 17 million?!? For a guy who hit .267 last year, has never won a Gold Glove, and himself has had two seasons where he missed 60+ games? I'm sorry, but like bk said the numbers don't add up. He doesn't get on base enough, doesn't hit with enough power or do enough of anything else. He's a fine player, but the Mets went nuts. The guy could very easily be .280/30/90 next year playing half his games in Shea (a slight pitcher's park). If that happens, it could get ugly.

[dbdynsty25]

I will definitely never become a scout... but I've forgotten more about baseball than you ever knew. Hell, when I drink a beer I lose more knowledge than you ever knew.

I may not know the most about baseball, but after watching Beltran play for the past 3 or 4 years...I can recognize some ridiculous talent. After watching nearly every Braves game, I can say Drew is a good ballplayer, but he's not really in Beltrans league. By me saying Beltran is a much better ballplayer...I'm using a complicated formula that only the likes of myself understand...COMMON SENSE.

To me...injuries knock players down a notch. Would anyone in their right mind say Junior Griffey is a top 10 player right now? If not, why? Because dude can't stay healthy. When he is on the field, he's just an average player because injuries have taken their toll. There is a reason the Braves only offered JD 7 mil a year. I personally think Scheurholz is a mastermind. Is he stupid? Hell no, he's got 13 little banners in the outfield that stand for division championships that say so. The Dodgers VASTLY overpaid for him. When he gets hurt about 1/3 of the way into the season this year, they'll realize the same thing. The Dodgers have a tendancy to give ridiculous contracts to risky players. Just ask Kevin Brown and Darren Dreifort for the most recent examples. Instead of giving their money to Beltre, they give it to Drew...I still haven't figured that one out yet.

Here are the facts: Drew has *career* (not just last season as you seem to hang your unknowledgeable hat on) better statistics than Beltran in OBP, BA, SLG, and OPS. Only a moron would use stats of opportunities like RBI to compare two players. I guess Beltran is better than Bonds... he had more RBI's.

I will not disagree with those stats whatsoever. I will however, give Drew a slight edge in protection in the lineup. Drew got to hit in the middle of a decent Cardinals lineup over the past 4 years...Beltran got to hit in KC which offered little to no protection. He was the best player on his team and he really had no one else to help him out. That in and of itself if a huge help over a career...

All in all, you're right, I stand corrected. Drew is a lot closer than I give him credit for...Both players were overpaid...but Beltran is the much safer bet because of his injury history. What's really funny, is that Beltran has virtually the same numbers as Andruw...(Carlos has him offensively by a small margain and Andruw has him defensively by a small margain). Weird.

[wco81]

Beltran got the contract because of the stretch run and his playoff run last year.

It really boosted his stock. If he performs like that in other playoffs, he would set all-time playoff records. But will he get a lot more playoff chances in the next 7 years?

[Kazuya]

I may not know the most about baseball, but after watching Beltran play for the past 3 or 4 years...I can recognize some ridiculous talent. After watching nearly every Braves game, I can say Drew is a good ballplayer, but he's not really in Beltrans league. By me saying Beltran is a much better ballplayer...I'm using a complicated formula that only the likes of myself understand...COMMON SENSE.

Fair enough, I see your perspective better now as I think you do mine. My ultimate point was not to quibble out of who was the better of two similar players, just that I thought the Mets went a bit overboard to get their man. Time will tell.

[jLp vAkEr0]

I don't understand what do people wanted the Mets to do? Let another proven star move on beacuse he costs mega bucks?(Arod, Vlady)
They should have just let him walk and let the next team get him right? Please... Beltran was the biggest FA of the off season, and Mets managment did what it needed to do to get him. If they don't shell out the $ they gey killed, they finally do shell the $ on a solid player and you still hear s***. Whatever...

I too don't understand how can some people call $17mil overpaying for a 5-tool star how just showed what he can do in the playoffs and it's just entering his prime. What do people prefer? $16mil for Jason Giambi? 14mil for Mike Hampton? Who are you guys kidding?

It's done. the Mets got it done, they got better, and need to keep getting better.


BK:

Did any of those 5 experts proposed anything that the Mets should have done? You know, like letting him walk?


kaz:

I have no need to discuss any topic with you. I posted an article were it explained how various teams are interested in Nene and where willing to give up goods for him(ex: Bucks: Michael Redd).

Look at his last 5 games http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/p ... atsId=3605

See a trend? Give him minutes and he can produce. NBA teams see that, you don't. is he Amare? God no! But he has talent, and he is in no way close to being a bust.

[jLp vAkEr0]

Here's a good article defending the Beltran signing http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... -the-mets/

If you don't want to click over an read it, here are some bullets:

The Mets may have overpaid, but at least they overpaid for the right guy.

The diversity of Beltran's skills are what make him unique

He's the type of player who will likely age well

I guess we'll have to wait for seven years to find out. This and the Pedro signing are great offseason PR (no pun intended) for the Mets. They have to compete against the Yankees as well as their rivals in the NL East. The fact that that Beltran will wear some ridiculous blue jersey instead of pinstripes will sell some tickets and newspapers.

Statistically, JD Drew stacks up really well against Beltran. Their careers are easy to compare since they came up the same month (Sep 98 ). If you look at absolute numbers, Beltran is ahead in almost every category. But if you index production to plate appearances, Drew is better by these formulas. Drew's injuries have robbed him of over 1000 plate appearances, that's over a third of Drew's career. This, coupled with the fact that Beltran is 18 months younger, factors into Beltran's megabucks contract. Staying healthy is partially luck but frequent injuries over a period of six seasons reduces a player's value.

I totally agree with the article. The Mets have been famous all this years for signing good players in decline. They finally strike a deal with a young star on the rise and people wanna talk about overpaying. Well, negative people only wanna talk about negative things. I don't.