One politician with some common sense: Re DC Baseball

[dougb]

Linda W. Cropp, Chair of District of Columbia Council.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/b ... index.html

For getting a stadium deal changed to mandate that at least half of the redevelopment money come from the private sector, instead of taxpayers. I would have liked to have seen them mandate that all of the money should come from the private sector but at least its a start.

If there is one thing that really annoys about pro sports it is the continued use of taxpayer dollars for frills like professional sports. Professional sports teams should be forced to pay for their stadiums either through their own pockets or through private investment.

It's absolutely obscene that cities like Washington D.C., which cannot even provide decent public schools, would be prepared to hand out a barrel of $ to professional sports leagues. I remember when the Skydome was built in Toronto and the taxpayers basically just handed the developers and sports teams a $650 million gift.

Best wishes,

Doug

[jLp vAkEr0]

That's why at the end, I was glad San Juan didn't get the Expos franchise(not like they had that big of a chance anyways).

But Hiram Bithorn Stadium would have need a lot more renovations for Puerto Rico to have a baseball team full time and I'm sure ALL of the bill would have been passed to us.


Now, the new Coliseo de Puerto Rico is a new facility in the middle of San Juan's corporate area and can seat almost 20k people. Now that we have this kind of facility, I'm hearing that Puerto Rico can try to snatch a NBA franchise in the future.


I could only hope this would come true sometime.

[Leebo33]

If there is one thing that really annoys about pro sports it is the continued use of taxpayer dollars for frills like professional sports. Professional sports teams should be forced to pay for their stadiums either through their own pockets or through private investment.

It's absolutely obscene that cities like Washington D.C., which cannot even provide decent public schools, would be prepared to hand out a barrel of $ to professional sports leagues. I remember when the Skydome was built in Toronto and the taxpayers basically just handed the developers and sports teams a $650 million gift.

I agree with you 100%. It's criminal.

[Leebo33]

Case in point:

Pirates and Steelers get lovely new stadiums.

City of Pittsburgh gets a financial crisis.

Firefighters get lower wages and job cuts:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04351/427766.stm

[dougb]

Interesting paper (PDF) on the case for not providing public funding to professional sports teams.

http://www.heartland.org/pdf/madness.pdf

Best wishes,

Doug

[wco81]

MLB is using the threat of going to Las Vegas over Washington DC. Supposedly the Marlins are looking at it too.

Does LV have a big enough resident population to support a baseball team? I know it's a fast-growing city but I can't imagine that many tourists going to see a baseball game when they go to LV for other attractions in the first place.

As for private financing of stadia, the Giants did it but now, they are pleading poverty from having to pay a big mortgage as an excuse for not increasing payroll to levels commensurate with other teams with comparable revenues. So they will just shoot for fillin gup the park with Bonds and a number of no-names.

Not to mention the fact that SBC has to be one of the most expensive places to go see a game. Not saying publicly-financed parks would be cheaper, just that privately-financed parks are not without downsides.

[Zeppo]

Cropp should forever be tatooed with the epithet "Did more than any other to kill D.C. Baseball."

She is a typically hypocritical and grandstanding small-minded small-time politician, pandering for votes, setting herself up to run for Mayor. She agreed to the deal Mayor Williams negotiated with baseball. She stood next to him and basked in the glow of taking credit for a deal that was signed and sealed when it was announced at a press event that baseball would return to DC. Two weeks later, she renegged on everything she had put her seal of approval on, and now appears only to want to find the most attention-grabbing way she can to go against the Mayor. If she had any guts, she would have outright stood up and killed the deal, or better yet worked against it before it was negotiated and agreed to. Instead, she wormed in an ammendment that she knew would have the same effect without being up-front about her goals. I'm pretty sure she was also a big part of the group that fought old man Cooke for years on building a new stadium for the Redskins in the city, a stadium he was willing and able to pay for in its entirety on his own. She won that one too, and know the team plays in Landover MD, a capitulation the old man had to make after 10 years of fighting the small-minded small-time DC Council potliticians; he knew his end was coming, and wanted to get the damn thing built before he died. He never got to see it, but at least he saw ground broken and construction begun.

She, like a lot of people, does not accept that professional sports serve any purpose other than making a few people a lot of money. Being a sports fan, I happen to disagree with that point of view.

It's too bad for baseball, too bad for the Expos, who now have no offices, no field, no facilities whatsoever, and most of all too bad for DC and the metropolitan area that there will be no baseball in the city.

[dougb]

Cropp should forever be tatooed with the epithet "Did more than any other to kill D.C. Baseball.".

Nonsense. If Major League Baseball had any interest in setting up shop in D.C. beyond bilking the public coffers this change would not prevent the team from relocating there. Hell, the public would still be providing half of the $ for the team even under the revised deal.

She is a typically hypocritical and grandstanding small-minded small-time politician, pandering for votes, setting herself up to run for Mayor. She agreed to the deal Mayor Williams negotiated with baseball. She stood next to him and basked in the glow of taking credit for a deal that was signed and sealed when it was announced at a press event that baseball would return to DC. Two weeks later, she renegged on everything she had put her seal of approval on, and now appears only to want to find the most attention-grabbing way she can to go against the Mayor. If she had any guts, she would have outright stood up and killed the deal, or better yet worked against it before it was negotiated and agreed to.

Perhaps she supported the relocation team but not at the price major league baseball was asking for. Can't blame her for availing herself of standard legislative tactics to amend a deal so that it proves less expensive for the public purse. As to her future political motivations, who knows? But a bad deal is a bad deal.

She, like a lot of people, does not accept that professional sports serve any purpose other than making a few people a lot of money. Being a sports fan, I happen to disagree with that point of view..

Again, nonsense. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy watching professional sports. But it would be idiotic to argue that professional sports' primary purpose does not involve making as much money as possible. It's a business pure and simple. And when tradeoffs have to be made between funding firefighters, police, or schools and funding pro sports teams it's pretty obvious on what side of the line the axe should fall.

It's too bad for baseball, too bad for the Expos, who now have no offices, no field, no facilities whatsoever, and most of all too bad for DC and the metropolitan area that there will be no baseball in the city.

I find it astounding that anyone would feel sorry for the Expos. They made their bed and now they have to be prepared to lie in it. They've engaged in a cynical game of playing one city off against another, to capture as much public funding, from day one. Frankly, I wouldn't be bothered if they were forced to play out of a little league sandlot next season. It would serve them and Major League Baseball right.

Best wishes,

Doug

[Dave]

good insight here from Jim Caple:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/s ... id=1947248

Before reading this, I didn't make the connection between team sale price and stadium funding. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, MLB could not have handled the Expos much worse than they have.

[Zeppo]

Cropp should forever be tatooed with the epithet "Did more than any other to kill D.C. Baseball.".

Nonsense. If Major League Baseball had any interest in setting up shop in D.C. beyond bilking the public coffers this change would not prevent the team from relocating there. Hell, the public would still be providing half of the $ for the team even under the revised deal.

Then Cropp should have voiced her opposition during the negotiating process, not turned her coat after she had signed onto the agreement. The problem is, Selig and the gang want to sell the team, and no one is going to buy a team that has no stadium to play in.

She is a typically hypocritical and grandstanding small-minded small-time politician, pandering for votes, setting herself up to run for Mayor. She agreed to the deal Mayor Williams negotiated with baseball. She stood next to him and basked in the glow of taking credit for a deal that was signed and sealed when it was announced at a press event that baseball would return to DC. Two weeks later, she renegged on everything she had put her seal of approval on, and now appears only to want to find the most attention-grabbing way she can to go against the Mayor. If she had any guts, she would have outright stood up and killed the deal, or better yet worked against it before it was negotiated and agreed to.

Perhaps she supported the relocation team but not at the price major league baseball was asking for. Can't blame her for availing herself of standard legislative tactics to amend a deal so that it proves less expensive for the public purse. As to her future political motivations, who knows? But a bad deal is a bad deal.

Nope. She was elbowing into the photo-ops, grinning and smiling with the Mayor upon the announcement of the agreement. Again, had she any integrity she could have shown some backbone and stood up against the deal during the time the deal was being negotiated, not said one thing one time, then done everything she could after the fact to sabatoge the negotiated agreement.

She, like a lot of people, does not accept that professional sports serve any purpose other than making a few people a lot of money. Being a sports fan, I happen to disagree with that point of view..

Again, nonsense. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy watching professional sports. But it would be idiotic to argue that professional sports' primary purpose does not involve making as much money as possible. It's a business pure and simple. And when tradeoffs have to be made between funding firefighters, police, or schools and funding pro sports teams it's pretty obvious on what side of the line the axe should fall.

A valid argument no doubt. But the fact is, an agreement was made and made much of. After the fact, she suddenly becomes aware of the difficulties of the deal? Come on, she knew when she was trying to take credit for the agreement what it entailed. Besides, the bulk the money used to build the stadium doesn't exist unless a stadium is built and taxes are generated after the fact from the stadium to pay for the bonds, so it's not as simple as taking money away from services to pay for it.

It's too bad for baseball, too bad for the Expos, who now have no offices, no field, no facilities whatsoever, and most of all too bad for DC and the metropolitan area that there will be no baseball in the city.

I find it astounding that anyone would feel sorry for the Expos. They made their bed and now they have to be prepared to lie in it. They've engaged in a cynical game of playing one city off against another, to capture as much public funding, from day one. Frankly, I wouldn't be bothered if they were forced to play out of a little league sandlot next season. It would serve them and Major League Baseball right.

I feel terribly sorry for the Expos. They are a joke, owned by the league as a whole with no budget, no ability to sign players to try to be competitive, and now nowhere to play. The deal Loria made with baseball was a disaster for the franchise and IMO for baseball as an entitiy, even though it will prove a windfall for the other owners in the league who bought the team for a bargain-basement price and are looking to sell it for mega profit.

Look, I think the real bad-guys in this situation are the honchos at MLB, used-car salesman Selig the top of the list. You'll get no argument from me about how badly Bud and his cronies has f***ed this s*** up from the beginning, starting with the firing of Vincent as Commish for having the gall to suggest a re-alignment into 3 division per league. And I blame baseball and the commish's office for the last 30 years of renegging on a promis made by Commish Kuhn that baseball would return to DC in the 'next expansion', one of the original AL cities, some 3 or 4 expansions ago.

Clearly they are seeking to get as much profit as they can from the sale of the Expos, and to such a degree that they are willing to screw whoever gets in their way as they go about artifiially inflating the value of the franchise.

But my reaction to Cropp comes from her first agreeing to the deal (bad as it was), and then pretending that she was unaware of what was in the deal and trying to change it. If you agreed to buy a car at a certain price, and then upon delivery were told that you had to pay 3x as much or continue shopping, would you be lauding the salesman on his integrity for realising he had agreed to a bad price and trying to change it? That's what she is doing here, and all IMO to get her face on camera and in the headlines as much as possible, to raise her public image. She is and has been against sports in the city, it's plain and simple. For me sports have a cultural aspect to them that makes them larger than just business 'plain and simple.' For Cropp, they act as a conduit for her to get face-time on the local news.

[Zeppo]

Boswell's take I think provides an interesting read:

""How can we trust Cropp now? When does it end?" said a baseball official yesterday. "She has signed off, given her word, said the deal was done, more than once. Then she just changes her mind and acts like that's a normal way to do business.


"It's disgraceful. Baseball has been accused of a lot of things in the last 100 years. But never anything like this. They just went back on their word. If Cropp thinks she's going to do that and [still] get a team, she's making a horrible mistake.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Dec15.html

[sdrotar]

I agree with Cropp's stance about private financing 100%.
It's detestable that MLB and other leagues hold municipalities hostage for hundreds of millions of dollars so they can just make more millions off the residents later.

However, she should have fought for that during negotiations.
That's the proper way to do it. However, she apparently agreed to the MLB-DC deal, and that should be that.
Vote no, abstain, do whatever you must to stop the agreement if you believe it's wrong - during the negotiation process.

Re-writing the agreement after it's been made?
That's not what conscientious objectors do - that's what attention-grabbing politicians with career ambitions do...

It's bad enough that DC gets stuck with the bill, but it might be worse to have it taken away by one grandstanding opportunist.

[dougb]

Boswell's take I think provides an interesting read:

""How can we trust Cropp now? When does it end?" said a baseball official yesterday. "She has signed off, given her word, said the deal was done, more than once. Then she just changes her mind and acts like that's a normal way to do business.


"It's disgraceful. Baseball has been accused of a lot of things in the last 100 years. But never anything like this. They just went back on their word. If Cropp thinks she's going to do that and [still] get a team, she's making a horrible mistake.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Dec15.html

Thanks for the link Zeppo. Obviously there are quite a few permutations to this story.

It's difficult for me to get a sense of what really went on between the Mayor and Copp and how the negotiating process was conducted without looking through a lot more material.

For instance, was the negotiating process largely conducted by the Mayor himself or were Copp and other opponents involved? Was considerable pressure put on Copp to support the deal and did this pressure ultimately backfire on the supporters?

Perhaps more relevant to the issue is at what point is a deal considered finalized. The Mayor signed off on the deal but that is not necessarily the point at which the deal becomes finalized. As I understand it the deal is not complete until its approved by the council in full - after a vote. And thus council were well within their rights to withdraw the tentative approval of a contract if a majority saw fit to do so. And this is no diferent than the requirement for baseball owners to approve contracts negotiated by the league with various parties.

Another article ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Dec14.html ) indicated that the deal would largely be financed by a dedicated tax on businesses in the Washington area. In effect money that could have gone for some other more vital public purpose, or could have been kept by the indiviudal businesses themselves, would now go towards a professional sports team.

That quote from MLB did make me laugh though! Never going back on their word...that's rich!

Best wishes,

Doug

[Dave]

The public financing for professional sports team is getting some play up here due to the NHL lockout. St. Paul sacked up and built a fantastic arena for the NHL and now what are they getting out of it? They did an estimate on the amount of tax money lost due to the lockout and it was very substantial (in the 10s of millions).

They're getting F'd in the A.

[dougb]

I agree with Cropp's stance about private financing 100%.
It's detestable that MLB and other leagues hold municipalities hostage for hundreds of millions of dollars so they can just make more millions off the residents later.

However, she should have fought for that during negotiations.
That's the proper way to do it. However, she apparently agreed to the MLB-DC deal, and that should be that.
Vote no, abstain, do whatever you must to stop the agreement if you believe it's wrong - during the negotiation process.

Re-writing the agreement after it's been made?
That's not what conscientious objectors do - that's what attention-grabbing politicians with career ambitions do...

It's bad enough that DC gets stuck with the bill, but it might be worse to have it taken away by one grandstanding opportunist.

Problem is, lots of negotiating processes are designed to eliminate or reduce the influence of those who are thought to threaten any eventual deal. They then sign a deal and bring it to the group who must approve it with the admonition that the deal is final and can only be approved or rejected as is.

best wishes,

Doug

[JRod]

Zeppo, SD,

I wonder if she doing this now instead of negotiations to put MLB behind the 8-ball. What kind of a stupid move would it have been to piss of the voters and be the reponsible party that kills a baseball team in the nation's capita.

She seems to be doing this know because it puts MLB baseball in a tough situation. Whereas if this fight was before MLB baseball would have said screw the deal we are taking the expos where we won't meet any resistence.

Before DC had no leverage. Now they have started the dialogue of public financing and have MLB scrambling. Do you think the parties in N.C. or any of the other cities might not bring up private financing. If the public is to foot the fill in another city, this little show might have done enough to stem that tide for now.

Brilliant political move if you ask me. Before MLB would have walked away from the table, taken the offer to another city and this debate never happens. Now it could get into the publics mind not to foot the bill and it could mean the start of more private financing instead of public.

[Leebo33]

Brilliant political move if you ask me. Before MLB would have walked away from the table, taken the offer to another city and this debate never happens. Now it could get into the publics mind not to foot the bill and it could mean the start of more private financing instead of public.

JRod has a very good point.

[Jared]

I was watching one of the late night DC area sports shows and they had one of the other DC City Council people on (not Cropp), and according to him, the City Council as a majority never agreed to public financing in the first place. According to him (and he could be lying, who knows), no one from MLB or the mayor's office came to them beforehand with a proposal that said full public financing. He said he would have voted down any full public financing deal from the beginning.

That's from the other side....I have no idea who's telling it straight and who's lying here....it's definitely interesting, though.

[Leebo33]

I'd bet on the folks not having to pay $600M. People have lied for a lot less. At the very least the costs were probably grossly understated.

Every time I think of public financing for stadiums, the "Music Man" songs start popping into my head.

There's trouble. Right here in DC. With a capital T and that rhymes with B and that stands for BASEBALL!

[Zeppo]

Zeppo, SD,

Before MLB would have walked away from the table, taken the offer to another city and this debate never happens. Now it could get into the publics mind not to foot the bill and it could mean the start of more private financing instead of public.

As of midnight Dec. 31, I fully expect MLB to begin open negotiations with any and all other interested municipalities. As is, they are taking the PR high road by sticking to the Dec. 31 date. In fact, I imagine behind the scenes they are talking to others already, but who knows.

The issue is, did the Mayor have the authority to negotiate a deal with MLB or not? Apparently, he thought he did, MLB thought he did, and now it is clear that the council thought he did not, or at least told him he did but really didn't mean it. Obviously, in the next 15 days something may happen that could salvage the deal, but more than likely, it's dead. The fact they are returning $$ to folks who put down deposits for season tix is pretty telling I think.

[JRod]

Zeppo,

True but the debate has been started. Who's to say that the other cities want to foot the bill. Cities, Mayors and Councils all play follow the leader. If Denver offers a great public transportation system on the cheap, cities from around the country come to take notes. If Boston, mangles up something, cities across the nationa look at it and say we don't want another Boston.

When DC took this stance the put in at the very least in the minds of the public and politicians to not sell the farm just to get pro ball. Not only that but even if you build the ballpark with public money you aren't garunteed that it will make any real money. That scares the crap out of politicans.

I expect this fight to carry on and score one for the cities the debate has started.

If this was football I would say that all of this would be a non-issues but baseball doesn't make money like football.

[Zeppo]

Well, I would imagine MLB will make sure before the next candidate comes to the table that they are actually negotiating with someone who has the authority to make a deal. Beyond that, i would think they will stick to their guns.

They need a stadium in place in order to be able to sell the team, which is the ultimate goal. Without a facility, they will be unable to make a sale. They don't give 2 shits about the integrity of the schedule or the competiion in the NL East, they want their 200%+ profit for the sale of the team and will hold out until they get it. The Expos are already enough of an embarrassment to baseball, it can't get much worse than it has been since the Loria situation. So it doesn't seem to bother them much. They hold all the cards, and I don't see them giving in.

The big thing they've lost in all this is the ability to use D.C. as a tool to extort new facilities in other cities; now if they say 'we may move the team to D.C.' no one will believe there is any real possibility of that.

[Dave]

The winds are definitely blowing against 100% public funding for stadiums. This next legislative session up here will be interesting as the Twins and Gophers inch closer to stadiums. The Vikings have essentially given up for the time being.

Whoever ends up building the baseball stadium will likely have some sort of provision for the city to receive a portion of the profit from the appreciation of the team's value.

MLB needs to suck it up and find a buyer, any buyer at this point instead of trying to grease their pockets.

I'm sure Carl Pohlad will put his portion of the proceeds to improving the team as well...

[wco81]

Is it really a nice neighborhood by SBC?

I see mostly bars and restaurants catering to the pre and post-game crowd. These businesses probably would be in trouble if there was a baseball strike because there's little else drawing people down to that part of town.

There is an overpriced condo highrise right across too but has there been any other residential development?