ESPN College Hoops Impressions....

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:41 pm

One other thing that bothers me after playing some games is that the AI consistently takes a guy out when he has 2 fouls. In one game the AI team's center was on fire. So i decided to post up my center and pump fake, etc and see if i could draw some fouls. So far we are talking about real basketball -try to get a player in foul trouble and try to get them to work on defense to slow down their offense. But I now feel like it is cheating, since I know that I can get the guy out of the game if I can get him to pick up a second foul. That is just not true to the real game. You might take someone out with 2 fouls on occasion, but often the player would simply adjust his game and be a little more careful. As it is now, if an AI player gets a second foul in the first five minutes of the game, they are out for the rest of the half. If they get a third foul early in the second half, they sit again for a good bit of time. I have seen this happen, and by the time the player gets back into the game, it is too late and the game is out of reach.

If you are a middle-of-the-road team in real life with a great center, and you are playing a big game, there is a point where you will have to play your big man. You might sit him with 2 or three fouls, but if you felt the game slipping away, you would put him back in and ask him to be cautious.

Of course, coding this into a video game cannot be easy - how do you program a player to be cautious in a video game??

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:53 pm

I disagree Kevin. In this instance, I think the AI is playing fairly realistically. Many times I have witnessed (college ball on television) a player going out for the half if they pick up 2 fouls in the first half. It's normally in the seond half that they will play a bit more gingerly on defense should they pick up a third foul. To me, it's not cheating whatsoever. You have the possibility of picking up a charge by trying to play too aggressively. I follow Kansas basketball religiously, and if one of our top players get his second foul early, he's most likely done for the half. A lot of it depends on the amount of depth each team has as well.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:59 pm

sportdan30 wrote:I follow Kansas basketball religiously, and if one of our top players get his second foul early, he's most likely done for the half.

I watch a lot of Pitt and Penn State games during the regular season and the coaches almost always take out a player with 2 fouls in the first half, especially if it is a center or power forward. The coaches seem to give guards a little more leeway, especially if it is a floor general like Carl Krauser or Brandin Knight.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:02 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
sportdan30 wrote:I follow Kansas basketball religiously, and if one of our top players get his second foul early, he's most likely done for the half.
I watch a lot of Pitt and Penn State games during the regular season and the coaches almost always take out a player with 2 fouls in the first half, especially if it is a center or power forward. The coaches seem to give guards a little more leeway, especially if it is a floor general like Carl Krauser or Bradin Knight.

That is true Leebo. It all depends on how aggressive that player is on defense. For some players, it's hard to tell them to back off a little. In Ku's case, Miles (PG) is the floor general and to pick up a third foul in the first half would be disasterous.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:16 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
sportdan30 wrote:I follow Kansas basketball religiously, and if one of our top players get his second foul early, he's most likely done for the half.
I watch a lot of Pitt and Penn State games during the regular season and the coaches almost always take out a player with 2 fouls in the first half, especially if it is a center or power forward. The coaches seem to give guards a little more leeway, especially if it is a floor general like Carl Krauser or Brandin Knight.

Ditto @ OSU. When (not if--when) Dials get #2 in the first half he sees pine til the 2nd half. Clockwork.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:34 pm

I stand corrected!

One very good feature is that you don't get as many cheap fouls as you did last year. In other words, If I try to come down the court and pump fake, I automatically don't get fouled. I have also learned that you can go for the steal with reach ins turned all the way up. You just have to be in good position when you do it.

I also like how you are punished for being impatient. Try to force the ball inside or force your way inside is a good way to pick up a charge or to get a turnover.

So far I feel like the games i lose are either because I play bad or because I am the far weaker team. That is good also.

I still see conference teams facing each other in the first and second round of the NCAA, which is annoying . One thing I noticed is that sometimes a small conference will get a high seed. If they are not for real, they get smoked in the first round. The sim engine seems improved.

I wish this game had some tourney specific commentary. A first round win by an underdog deserves a little shout, don't ya think? Maybe next year.

Oh, and one little funny touch is that the email system that includes scouting and recruiting information also has spam mail. I had to laugh when i saw the spam emails the first time.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:35 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
JRod wrote:Shooting seems too random. The CPU will make shots with players standing all over them. I do like that you need a hand in the face but its just too random. Sometimes the ball will go in and sometimes it won't problem is I don't know what I did differently from when I miss to when I make it.
You're kidding right? It's a SHOT...it's always random. It doesn't go in all the time no matter what. LOL.

That's crap and you know it. Jordan wasn't random. Magic wasn't random. The problem is like in Madden, I'm seeing the CPU doing too many things that it shouldn't. Maybe its the biorhytym or whatever its called. I see way too many players shoot through double teams with consistency.

In CH shooting model it feels as if the user has very little influence over it. I don't expect to make every shot and I know how to play basketball. I just feel that the CPU takes bad shots and it doesn't hurt them. You do get rewared by working to the open shot. But

Now it could be like some of you mentioned, the biorythm is too much of a factor.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:52 pm

Jrod, what level are you playing on? Maybe it is just me, but this game seems harder than in the past offline. I'm only playing on All-Conference and it is challenging to me.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:57 pm

JRod wrote:That's crap and you know it. Jordan wasn't random. Magic wasn't random. The problem is like in Madden, I'm seeing the CPU doing too many things that it shouldn't. Maybe its the biorhytym or whatever its called. I see way too many players shoot through double teams with consistency.

In CH shooting model it feels as if the user has very little influence over it. I don't expect to make every shot and I know how to play basketball. I just feel that the CPU takes bad shots and it doesn't hurt them. You do get rewared by working to the open shot. But

Now it could be like some of you mentioned, the biorythm is too much of a factor.

It's not crap at all. How is anything that is in a video game NOT random? Magic and Jordan? What are their shooting percentages over their careers (I'll give you a hint, it's in the 40-50% range). Jordan hit HUGE shots against double teams and he can miss wide open shots...why is that so different from ANY game ever created for ANY system? I'll give you another hint...it's not.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:30 pm

40% is not random. Baseball players hit .300 and that's not random. You are right that players hit big shots at all times in a game.

The difference from CH to say a game like Inside Drive is that you were rewarded and maybe unrealisticly so from shooting in the open and shooting at a certain point in the animation. CH does a good job at the first. But I feel it fails at the second as the CPU not even stats at times dominates shooting.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:19 pm

JRod wrote:40% is not random. Baseball players hit .300 and that's not random. You are right that players hit big shots at all times in a game.

The difference from CH to say a game like Inside Drive is that you were rewarded and maybe unrealisticly so from shooting in the open and shooting at a certain point in the animation. CH does a good job at the first. But I feel it fails at the second as the CPU not even stats at times dominates shooting.

What game are you playing??

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:19 pm

40% is random. 100% isn't random...that's guaranteed. My main point is that guys will shoot 40% on the year...some will be difficult shots against double teams and some will be wide open shots. Sure the wide open shots fall more than the covered ones, but either way, you never know if it's going to go in or not. That's random.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:07 pm

Hey...anybody got the doggone rosters yet? I have an XB MaxDrive, and I can't get it to save onto the drive. I've done what I always do, try to drag and drop it into the file, and they usually save right then, but this isn't. Help...

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:37 pm

Can anyone tell me if I can do a legacy or some kind of season mode with a created team? I kept trying to do legacy, but they were only giving me that small list of schools to choose from.

TheGamer · Post by **TheGamer** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:54 pm

I think you have to turn edit conferences to "on" when setting up your legacy. not sure, just a guess.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:55 pm

Well I'm just not digging the game. I'll just leave it at that.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:55 pm

Yeah, I was able to get my school into a conference, but then it seemed like it was giving me a limited list of schools to choose from afterwards. I'm sure I'm just overlooking something.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:40 am

I got it. Difference between "career" and "open" modes.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:19 am

Thanks everyone for this thread. I got this game and can't stop playing. Makes up for NCAA Football.

XXXIV : Check your PM.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:29 am

I see what JRod is saying, not sure yet if I completely agree with him.

I have seen a few too many instances where the AI hits shot after show when I am playing excellent defense.

But then I have games like last night where i got down by 15 and decided that I would just play hard on defense and play smart on offense and take it one possession at a time. I was able to go on a little run and cut the lead to 4 before I fizzled out and lost the game.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:11 am

Tweaking your "defend" sliders a bit will help against the CPU. I'm in the process of tweaking a few sliders here and there and I'm getting good results. It usually takes me a couple of weeks to find good settings. The game is very playable out of the box on All-Conference though and online play seems really balanced.

After further review, I agree with Kevin regarding the CPU substitutions. I don't think it is too bad, but the CPU is too conservative regarding players in foul trouble in the second half. The good news is that CPU seems to put their best players in the last 4-5 minutes regardless of foul trouble.

I'm liking the variety in games. I am playing an offline NCAA tournament as Pitt and I beat the #15 seed by 24. In the second round I came back from a 13 point deficit to beat Charlotte 65-59. Both teams shot less than 40%. Then I played a third round game as Arizona vs. Kentucky. It was a totally different game as both teams shot around 50% and it was high scoring. I love the fact that you can see the box scores to the other games.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:55 am

Have any of you guys tried a game between some of th smaller schools yet? My first few games all involved teams in the Top 25. Last night, I started up a Legacy with small Saint Francis (Pa) and played a game against Howard at home in Loretto Pa. (From what I can remember, the gym was based on the real thing in the game...how cool is that). Anyways, the game has, IMO, a much different feel to it when you play a couple of small schools against each other...at least it seemed that way in the game that I played.

I also noticed the ESPN News stuff after the game...again, how cool is that. I'm not a huge college basketball fan, but I have no problem at all saying this is the best basketball game I've ever played. At least as good as Coach K back on the sega genesis, and IMO much better.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:24 am

GTHobbes wrote:Last night, I started up a Legacy with small Saint Francis (Pa) and played a game against Howard at home in Loretto Pa. (From what I can remember, the gym was based on the real thing in the game...how cool is that).

I'll have to check that out. Have they moved to a new facility in the last 18-20 years? If not, I actually attended a high school basketball playoff game there back in the early to mid-80s.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:02 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
GTHobbes wrote:Last night, I started up a Legacy with small Saint Francis (Pa) and played a game against Howard at home in Loretto Pa. (From what I can remember, the gym was based on the real thing in the game...how cool is that).
I'll have to check that out. Have they moved to a new facility in the last 18-20 years? If not, I actually attended a high school basketball playoff game there back in the early to mid-80s.

It's been at least 10 years since I've been there myself, but I think they're still in the same building. If you do check it out, I'd be curious to hear if it's how you remember it as well.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:29 pm

I played a game between Cal State Northridge (where my girl got her masters) and Pepperdine...the gym at CSUN was pretty much spot on. Only one door was out of place. Pretty damn good job by the developers.