I've currently got a 50" 4:3 rear-projection HDTV. I bought it in 1999 from Mitsubishi and it still performs great. The only problem is that I can't game in HD (or even 480p) because the set only accepts a 1080i signal (now delivered via a DirecTV reciever). It's fine, but I want a widescreen, something more attractive, and of course: NEW. The picture quality is excellent, including HD (despite being letterboxed into a 43" pic), but the inputs are lacking etc.
So, I've convinced the wife that we should drop $4,000+ on a new Hitachi 50" LCD RPTV, the 50VS810, which is just a stunning piece of AV gear.
The question is...I don't really "NEED" it, but it's calling to me and I've got the green light from the wife...
Buy now, or wait? What would you do?
PS> It's not as though money is no object. I can afford the new set, but it's not like I've got $4g just burning a hole in my pocket either...
OT: HDTV, Buy now or wait?
Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
OT: HDTV, Buy now or wait?
Sport73
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
-
dbdynsty25
- DSP-Funk All-Star
- Posts: 21619
- Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
The wait or buy now equation has gotten slightly more complicated recently.
Intel had been promising to really blow up the market by producing LCOS chipsets which would result in 50-inch $1800 sets. They've since delayed and finally canceled their plans to enter the market.
LCOS, according to those who've seen some very expensive models, is considered more promising than LCD or DLP. People were hoping that would be the true digital fixed-pixel challenge to plasma and CRT. Sony is planning to come out with a 70-inch LCOS model which people are already claiming to be groundbreaking. It will be $10k and come out in Jan or Feb.
Even if manufacturers improve the yields (low yields is why LCOS is very expensive and rare), it will probably be awhile before LCOS becomes affordable or at least in the same price range as DLP.
There are still new disply technologies coming including SED (which is suppose to arrive in the next couple of years) and in the longer term, things like OLED.
If you watch a lot of HDTV now, the 16:9 screen is definitely a strong argument for getting a set now. But if you're still watching a lot of SD programming (480i), you will always get more for your buck later because display technology is getting better and cheaper.
For instance, within the next 18 months, we are suppose to get blue-laser discs with HDTV movies. No doubt you'll get more product for your money a year from now and all the CE makers will try to jump on the hype for the blue-laser disc launch to promote their displays.
So far the killer app. for HDTV has to be sports. There's a lot of HDTV football to enjoy these days (but they could do better as it appears ESPN won't show too many HDTV NBA games until after the football season).
Intel had been promising to really blow up the market by producing LCOS chipsets which would result in 50-inch $1800 sets. They've since delayed and finally canceled their plans to enter the market.
LCOS, according to those who've seen some very expensive models, is considered more promising than LCD or DLP. People were hoping that would be the true digital fixed-pixel challenge to plasma and CRT. Sony is planning to come out with a 70-inch LCOS model which people are already claiming to be groundbreaking. It will be $10k and come out in Jan or Feb.
Even if manufacturers improve the yields (low yields is why LCOS is very expensive and rare), it will probably be awhile before LCOS becomes affordable or at least in the same price range as DLP.
There are still new disply technologies coming including SED (which is suppose to arrive in the next couple of years) and in the longer term, things like OLED.
If you watch a lot of HDTV now, the 16:9 screen is definitely a strong argument for getting a set now. But if you're still watching a lot of SD programming (480i), you will always get more for your buck later because display technology is getting better and cheaper.
For instance, within the next 18 months, we are suppose to get blue-laser discs with HDTV movies. No doubt you'll get more product for your money a year from now and all the CE makers will try to jump on the hype for the blue-laser disc launch to promote their displays.
So far the killer app. for HDTV has to be sports. There's a lot of HDTV football to enjoy these days (but they could do better as it appears ESPN won't show too many HDTV NBA games until after the football season).
Sport, I would wait for a lot of the reasons WCO states. If you didn't already have an HDTV, that'd be one thing, but I can't imagine you're going to get $4000 worth of "wow" out of your upgrade. The prices will come down. Plus, if gaming is a serious part of your reason, I'd wait to hear a bit more about the next gen systems. I imagine by E3 2005, we'll probably start learning real specs. That may change your decision. Next year will also likely bring Hi Def DVDs, too, and you may want to make sure you buy a set that is ready for the new technology.
It is tough to resist, especially when the wife says yes, but I do think you are setting yourself up for buyer's remorse in the next 12-18 months.
It is tough to resist, especially when the wife says yes, but I do think you are setting yourself up for buyer's remorse in the next 12-18 months.
First of all, the buy now or wait concept will always be something to contemplate with anything technology. It's like a computer. If you have the $$$ and really want one...GO FOR IT! Try and sell you rold one even if just for a couple hundred.
My only suggestion is to look at the Sony LCD 50" sets for around $2500 before plopping down $4000+ for the Hitachi. The Sony picture is VERY nice for an LCD (IMO).
I just bought a 26" LCD for the bedroom. Did I need it? Hell no! But wanted it and the girlfriend was totally on board. It is perfect for the bedroom and now I can watch HD and play my games while chillin' in bed. I'm quite happy.
I got a Philips set and am VERY impressed with the quality. It was between that and the 26" Toshiba. The Philips was about $600 less and had a better picture IMO. I compared them side by side for a while. I actually had purchased the 23" Toshiba but it was falsely advertised that it had features that it did not (PIP, 2 componenet inputs) so I went back to BB to get the 26" Tosh. That's when I saw the Philips right next to it and was shocked at the quality. I have had it a week and am very impressed and happy with it.
My only suggestion is to look at the Sony LCD 50" sets for around $2500 before plopping down $4000+ for the Hitachi. The Sony picture is VERY nice for an LCD (IMO).
I just bought a 26" LCD for the bedroom. Did I need it? Hell no! But wanted it and the girlfriend was totally on board. It is perfect for the bedroom and now I can watch HD and play my games while chillin' in bed. I'm quite happy.
I got a Philips set and am VERY impressed with the quality. It was between that and the 26" Toshiba. The Philips was about $600 less and had a better picture IMO. I compared them side by side for a while. I actually had purchased the 23" Toshiba but it was falsely advertised that it had features that it did not (PIP, 2 componenet inputs) so I went back to BB to get the 26" Tosh. That's when I saw the Philips right next to it and was shocked at the quality. I have had it a week and am very impressed and happy with it.
Spooky, the thing with consumer electronics and specifically TVs is that people used to be able to hold on to a TV for 10, 15, even 20 years.
Now, HDTV is mostly a settled standard but the display technologies are making it like computers. DLP and LCOS are semiconductors so like CPU clock speeds, there are measurable improvements being made every year, as they pack more pixels and improve their manufacturing yields.
Yeah if you already have a set, it would probably be best to wait. For one thing, high def. discs will likely be in 1080p format (full progressive 1920x1080 pixels running at 24, 25, or 30 frames per second).
There are few if any displays capable of displaying that right now and the few that are coming will start out very expensively priced, well over $5k, closer to probably 10k if not more. It may take at least 2-3 years before such displays drop under $4k.
As for LCDs, there's a difference between LCD projection sets and LCD flat panels, which max out at about 30 inches right now. The latter is way more expensive. I'm also tempted to get one in my bedroom but a lot of LCD panels are only 1024x768. Or at best, they are slightly above 720p (1280x720).
I can't imagine buying anything other than a 1080p display since I already have a 1080i set (few current 1080i displays will resolve all the pixels). As far as gaming goes, it would take a lot more embedded DRAM to support 1080p modes in the PS3 and Xbox2 than people expect those consoles to have. So the informed guesses is that they will support 720p or 1080i while Blu Ray and HD-DVD should have the storage for 1080p movies, if Hollywood decides to release in the max. resolution possible.
Now, HDTV is mostly a settled standard but the display technologies are making it like computers. DLP and LCOS are semiconductors so like CPU clock speeds, there are measurable improvements being made every year, as they pack more pixels and improve their manufacturing yields.
Yeah if you already have a set, it would probably be best to wait. For one thing, high def. discs will likely be in 1080p format (full progressive 1920x1080 pixels running at 24, 25, or 30 frames per second).
There are few if any displays capable of displaying that right now and the few that are coming will start out very expensively priced, well over $5k, closer to probably 10k if not more. It may take at least 2-3 years before such displays drop under $4k.
As for LCDs, there's a difference between LCD projection sets and LCD flat panels, which max out at about 30 inches right now. The latter is way more expensive. I'm also tempted to get one in my bedroom but a lot of LCD panels are only 1024x768. Or at best, they are slightly above 720p (1280x720).
I can't imagine buying anything other than a 1080p display since I already have a 1080i set (few current 1080i displays will resolve all the pixels). As far as gaming goes, it would take a lot more embedded DRAM to support 1080p modes in the PS3 and Xbox2 than people expect those consoles to have. So the informed guesses is that they will support 720p or 1080i while Blu Ray and HD-DVD should have the storage for 1080p movies, if Hollywood decides to release in the max. resolution possible.
Personally, I'd wait. I am a recovering Audio/Visual techno geek or whatever you want to call it. I was always concerned about having the best picture quality and audio quality. I spent lots of time researching and comparing, then eventually lots of money.
A couple years ago, I was forced to make some major changes to my spending habits and our family budget. I found out a few things in doing so. The fun factor for me playing a console game or watching Movies/TV did not dramtically increase at all depending on the size, picture quality, or sound quality. If it did, it was certainly NOT worth the $100's and/or thousands of dollars difference in price. I also found that I just don't have the eyes, or the ears to really tell the difference, or at least appreciate it at the level of the money spent. Sportscenter or the news certainly did not seem any worse to me.
I have some friends with some really expensive HDTV/Digitial Audio setups. They are pretty cool, but I actually seemed to have a harder time seeing things clearly, particularly in racing games. The sound in these systems was cool, but my gaming setup for the forseeable future is in a room right next to where my kids sleep, so most of the time the sound is turned way down or off. I never watch TV or movies enough to even remotely appreciate the picture quality of HDTV.
Of course, these are all just my personal reasons. I am extremely envious of the system you already have. If you think you and your wife will get $4000 dollars of enjoyment out of it, then go for it. I personally learned the hard way, that the enjoyment vs. opportunity cost factor was WAY WAY out of whack. Technology keeps getting better and keeps going down in price. There is really never any risk or loss in waiting on purchasing a luxury item unless it is one that actually could go up in price and value (like a classic car or a piece of art).
Do you think one year from now you would regret not having purchased it? Is there anything else that $4000 could buy that would make you feel better than the HDTV? I am not trying to sound preachy at all. These are just the questions I now ask myself when looking at big ticket luxury item purchases. I was never satisfied with what I had. Every 3 months I was upgrading something in my computer, or in my home audio/video system. It was pretty shocking once I realized how much those items had decreased in worth once I started trying to sell them. Now I realize that I can live without the constant upgrade anxiety and actually be quite happy.
A couple years ago, I was forced to make some major changes to my spending habits and our family budget. I found out a few things in doing so. The fun factor for me playing a console game or watching Movies/TV did not dramtically increase at all depending on the size, picture quality, or sound quality. If it did, it was certainly NOT worth the $100's and/or thousands of dollars difference in price. I also found that I just don't have the eyes, or the ears to really tell the difference, or at least appreciate it at the level of the money spent. Sportscenter or the news certainly did not seem any worse to me.
I have some friends with some really expensive HDTV/Digitial Audio setups. They are pretty cool, but I actually seemed to have a harder time seeing things clearly, particularly in racing games. The sound in these systems was cool, but my gaming setup for the forseeable future is in a room right next to where my kids sleep, so most of the time the sound is turned way down or off. I never watch TV or movies enough to even remotely appreciate the picture quality of HDTV.
Of course, these are all just my personal reasons. I am extremely envious of the system you already have. If you think you and your wife will get $4000 dollars of enjoyment out of it, then go for it. I personally learned the hard way, that the enjoyment vs. opportunity cost factor was WAY WAY out of whack. Technology keeps getting better and keeps going down in price. There is really never any risk or loss in waiting on purchasing a luxury item unless it is one that actually could go up in price and value (like a classic car or a piece of art).
Do you think one year from now you would regret not having purchased it? Is there anything else that $4000 could buy that would make you feel better than the HDTV? I am not trying to sound preachy at all. These are just the questions I now ask myself when looking at big ticket luxury item purchases. I was never satisfied with what I had. Every 3 months I was upgrading something in my computer, or in my home audio/video system. It was pretty shocking once I realized how much those items had decreased in worth once I started trying to sell them. Now I realize that I can live without the constant upgrade anxiety and actually be quite happy.
All really good points.
On the technology front, I'm a big believer in the concept that waiting for the 'next great thing' means waiting forever, as there will always be a next great thing.
I'm a die-hard geek A/V, Computer, etc. and I've done the research to know that the OLED, LCOS etc. revolutions will bring amazing new sets (in 3-5 years) with exceptionally high starting costs as well. 1080p is a pipe-dream, if only because the TV networks are only now in the midst of a 1080i/720p upgrade cycle; HD-DVD's may be 1080p (or rather 1080i encoded and de-interlaced to 1080p like today's progressive scan players), but that's not enough to make me fear 1080p.
On the other hand, January will have the announcements of the 2005 sets and will almost certainly include a 'big bang' or two.
The biggest concern is the fickle styling changes employed by the manufacturers. For those that haven't seen it, the Hitachi 50VS810 is a stunning set even in the off position. If they move away from that design I'll be kicking myself even if the technology gets a little better.
Thanks for the input & votes, keep 'em coming. I'm most likely going to go with whatever the poll results suggest since I'm 50-50 right now.
On the technology front, I'm a big believer in the concept that waiting for the 'next great thing' means waiting forever, as there will always be a next great thing.
I'm a die-hard geek A/V, Computer, etc. and I've done the research to know that the OLED, LCOS etc. revolutions will bring amazing new sets (in 3-5 years) with exceptionally high starting costs as well. 1080p is a pipe-dream, if only because the TV networks are only now in the midst of a 1080i/720p upgrade cycle; HD-DVD's may be 1080p (or rather 1080i encoded and de-interlaced to 1080p like today's progressive scan players), but that's not enough to make me fear 1080p.
On the other hand, January will have the announcements of the 2005 sets and will almost certainly include a 'big bang' or two.
The biggest concern is the fickle styling changes employed by the manufacturers. For those that haven't seen it, the Hitachi 50VS810 is a stunning set even in the off position. If they move away from that design I'll be kicking myself even if the technology gets a little better.
Thanks for the input & votes, keep 'em coming. I'm most likely going to go with whatever the poll results suggest since I'm 50-50 right now.
Sport73
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
Sport, you probably won't see 1080p broadcast by anyone since the bandwidth allocated in the spectrum doesn't support it. If anything, local stations try to get away with cutting HDTV bandwidth so they can squeeze in a weather channel or some other worthless multicasting.
Both blue-laser formats are capable of storying in 1080p and downsampling to 1080i or 720p. It should be the reverse of DVDs. However, you never know, the studios may try to keep manufacturing costs down by only making single-layer discs, which would halve storage capacity and possibly force them to use lower bit rates for some longer titles. Then they might do 1080i instead of 1080p but Blu-Ray in particular has enough storage even in single-layer to have all but the longest feature films, with multichannel sound and with supplements. Using MPEG2 no less.
I think technology will settle down at some point. There are a lot of players rushing in to get a piece of the flat panel market, both for computer displays and things like plasmas or LCDs. But a lot of players will exit the market, as Intel recently did.
Now HDTV has barely started in Japan and hasn't really started in Europe yet. Still, analysts note that displays greater than 50-inches will have a limited market because most homes around the world aren't the large suburban tract homes which could house real big displays.
So at some point, companies will stop bothering to push for higher resolution or bigger displays. They may refine manufacturing to push down prices. The promise of stuff like OLED is that manufacturers could print the screens and roll it up for shipment to stores. Then consumers would be able to stow them away when not using them by rolling them up.
Sure they could push for higher resolutions still but the display market will continue to be driven by broadcast content, not packaged media content like DVDs. Even computers will seen an end to Moore's law.
Both blue-laser formats are capable of storying in 1080p and downsampling to 1080i or 720p. It should be the reverse of DVDs. However, you never know, the studios may try to keep manufacturing costs down by only making single-layer discs, which would halve storage capacity and possibly force them to use lower bit rates for some longer titles. Then they might do 1080i instead of 1080p but Blu-Ray in particular has enough storage even in single-layer to have all but the longest feature films, with multichannel sound and with supplements. Using MPEG2 no less.
I think technology will settle down at some point. There are a lot of players rushing in to get a piece of the flat panel market, both for computer displays and things like plasmas or LCDs. But a lot of players will exit the market, as Intel recently did.
Now HDTV has barely started in Japan and hasn't really started in Europe yet. Still, analysts note that displays greater than 50-inches will have a limited market because most homes around the world aren't the large suburban tract homes which could house real big displays.
So at some point, companies will stop bothering to push for higher resolution or bigger displays. They may refine manufacturing to push down prices. The promise of stuff like OLED is that manufacturers could print the screens and roll it up for shipment to stores. Then consumers would be able to stow them away when not using them by rolling them up.
Sure they could push for higher resolutions still but the display market will continue to be driven by broadcast content, not packaged media content like DVDs. Even computers will seen an end to Moore's law.
-
ubrakto
- Utility Infielder
- Posts: 405
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:00 am
- Location: Indianapolis
- Contact:
As no one else is brought it up, I have to ask. Have you considered getting a (front) video projector? It might be a nice complement to your existing TV.
The *really* nice models are wicked expensive, but the lower end models are considerably cheaper than today's conventional big screen TVs. True, many of the DLP and LCD projectors that are in the sub $2000 range aren't true HD projectors, but they'll take an HD image and scale it as necessary and will project a very solid image (way better than SD and comparable to true HD). My InFocus SP4805 is set up to deliver about an 84" wide picture and for the money is about as close as you can get to putting a movie theater in your home. (And if you've got a $3000+ budget you can get a considerably nicer projector than mine.)
There are drawbacks to be sure. You need a dark room (either a finished basement or a room where you can eliminate ambient light) and you have to be able to both position the projector a fair distance from the screen and sit further away from it (too close and you can make out the pixel structure). Also screens can get really pricey (anywhere from $500 to more than $1000), but if you're not manicly obsessive over picture quality a white wall works just fine (you can also buy "screen" paint for your wall). Depending on your home, it can all make finding a suitable room problematic. (Fortunately, our home as one large room that works nicely as a mini-theater.)
Regardless, I got my projector back in August and I've never been happier with a purchase. I spent about $1300 on my projector and $600 on a screen from Carada.com (very high quality screens w/o the premium pricing). Playing ESPN NFL no an 80+ inch screen just cannot be beat.
The *really* nice models are wicked expensive, but the lower end models are considerably cheaper than today's conventional big screen TVs. True, many of the DLP and LCD projectors that are in the sub $2000 range aren't true HD projectors, but they'll take an HD image and scale it as necessary and will project a very solid image (way better than SD and comparable to true HD). My InFocus SP4805 is set up to deliver about an 84" wide picture and for the money is about as close as you can get to putting a movie theater in your home. (And if you've got a $3000+ budget you can get a considerably nicer projector than mine.)
There are drawbacks to be sure. You need a dark room (either a finished basement or a room where you can eliminate ambient light) and you have to be able to both position the projector a fair distance from the screen and sit further away from it (too close and you can make out the pixel structure). Also screens can get really pricey (anywhere from $500 to more than $1000), but if you're not manicly obsessive over picture quality a white wall works just fine (you can also buy "screen" paint for your wall). Depending on your home, it can all make finding a suitable room problematic. (Fortunately, our home as one large room that works nicely as a mini-theater.)
Regardless, I got my projector back in August and I've never been happier with a purchase. I spent about $1300 on my projector and $600 on a screen from Carada.com (very high quality screens w/o the premium pricing). Playing ESPN NFL no an 80+ inch screen just cannot be beat.
This is going to be my "everyday" TV, so I'm staying away from the Front Projector until I move out of Florida. (Where I can have a basement again and build my true home theatre with a front projector etc.).
I agree with the comments about 1080p, it's a pipe-dream and we're likely to never see native 1080p content, though most displays will be 1080p within 2 years.
I agree with the comments about 1080p, it's a pipe-dream and we're likely to never see native 1080p content, though most displays will be 1080p within 2 years.
Sport73
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
One thing I read somewhere is that some content producers like ESPN are interested in producing content in 1080p. Now there is no way to broadcast that over the air but it's not completely out of the question via cable or satellite.
More than likely, cable and satellite would take a 1080p stream from ESPN and just reduce it to 720p or 1080i. Still, that should yield better results (at least better than going from fewer pixels to scaling up to higher pixels).
That could mean ESPN could put out prerecorded content on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD which would be at 1080p, even if their live content is only shown at the lower resolutions.
Then again, this could be the voice of enthusiast talking more than the mass market. If picture quality alone was what drove people, HDTV sales would be much greater (altho it's pretty good now) and Xbox would have the biggest market share.
More than likely, cable and satellite would take a 1080p stream from ESPN and just reduce it to 720p or 1080i. Still, that should yield better results (at least better than going from fewer pixels to scaling up to higher pixels).
That could mean ESPN could put out prerecorded content on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD which would be at 1080p, even if their live content is only shown at the lower resolutions.
Then again, this could be the voice of enthusiast talking more than the mass market. If picture quality alone was what drove people, HDTV sales would be much greater (altho it's pretty good now) and Xbox would have the biggest market share.
Well if you don't want to wait at least a year, better buy before January.
At the CES in January, there will of course be new models shown for the upcoming year (companies show models which may not be released until the fall).
Also, there is speculation that Bill Gates, who is scheduled as a keynote, will unveil Xenon.
At the CES in January, there will of course be new models shown for the upcoming year (companies show models which may not be released until the fall).
Also, there is speculation that Bill Gates, who is scheduled as a keynote, will unveil Xenon.
I'd get it now. The models for this year have only been out a couple of months. You'd have to wait almost a year for the next generation to come out. $4000 for a 50" does sound pricey. I have last year's Sony 50" LCD RPTV and it only cost me $2900. (bought back in March) You could tell your wife you'd save an extra $1000 