OT: My final comments on the election

[JRod]

You've got to be kidding me...

Exit Polling had Kerry winning convincingly. So much for exit polling.

[azmark]

I would feel so insecure if my job was a pollster..and should always be...we voted..and like it or not..it counted...gripe all you want...main thing is...we voted

[ProvoAnC]

Either way what's scary

what's really scary is that these asshat politicians lobby to get someone's vote (minority or not) instead of trying to improve their quality of life. Bush or Kerry or whoever could care less if the poor black family in the ghetto benefits from them being elected. They only care that they vote for them and not the other guy. Its f***in pathetic...

[Naples39]

"Even people who weren't alive back then see the Confederacy as something to be proud of. You can't exactly try to win over this kind of voter if it means indulging their prejudices."



I'm as southern as they come...and that has to be the most idiotic thought process(if you can call it that) that I've ever seen in my life. If anything, southerners are among the most patriotic people in the country. This pathetic whining and commentary about something you obviously don't understand is getting really stale, wco. You've never heard me talk about "yankees" or "the War of Northern Aggression"(which is the way you'd have me frame it, isn't it...y'know, bein' from Alabamuh and all), or those damn black people who should be plowin' my field instead of being free. Why don't you talk about something you understand, and stop with the whine and cheese?

Since I am making a habit of disagreeing with Teal...

All I will say is that although largley unfair and dangerous, stereotypes exist for a reason. I lived in NC as a displaced northerner for the better part of the last 5 years, so I am speaking from my own first hand experience, not some baseless accusations.

In that time, I have been referred to as 'the yankee' or 'xxxx's yankee friend' countless times.

I know people who were taught the term 'war of northern aggression' in school, and still use it today in any situation that I would say 'the civil war'.

In terms of patriotism, I have been told from many southerners that any 'real southerner' would consider themselves southern first and american second. I've also learned in other conversations and debates that those "SECEDE!!!" bumper sticker I see on trucks and cars are not a joke as I thought they were when I first moved there, and that the 'civil war/war of northern aggression' is looked back upon with fierce pride by many, not as the tragic chapter in our nation's history that I was brought up to believe it was.

I have also witnessed a surprising amount amount of racism, but the sad truth is that the south by no means has a monopoly on racism in this country today.

I have also met other southerners who were shocked to learn that I am atheist after knowing me for a while because until they met me they thought all atheists were, to use their words, 'depressed' and 'amoral' people.

I am not talking about dumb, crude, assbackwards hicks here. I am talking about kind, honest, bright, college-educated people. I am also not trying to say that I have exhaustively travelled the south getting the know all the people, as I have not, so my experiences may be isolated. The point is that the worldview that the stereotypes represent is real and is out there to be contended with. I'll be the first to admit there are a lot of things about the south I don't and will never understand, but pretend those old-fashioned, stereotypical southern values still don't make up a part of the contemporary cultural fabric is to be living in denial.

[wco81]

Wonder if those Southerners who want to secede realize that most of those states depend on Federal govt. dollars.

The Blue states pay more in taxes than they get back while many of the Red states get back more Federal dollars than they pay in taxes.

[Kazuya]

"Chief Bush strategist Matthew Dowd said exit polling revealed that Bush won 42 percent of the Hispanic vote this year, up from 35 percent in 2000."

Maybe Junior Jeb helps to reel in the votes...

[Naples39]

Wonder if those Southerners who want to secede realize that most of those states depend on Federal govt. dollars.

The Blue states pay more in taxes than they get back while many of the Red states get back more Federal dollars than they pay in taxes.

I don't think the people that sport those signs really expect anything like that to happen, so such details are inconsequential. As far as I can gather, it is really a sign to show their support of southern independence and culture and that those pesky yankees should butt out of their business.

[DChaps]

Racism: A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Prejudice: Preconceived judgment or opinion, an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

I personally believe there are not that many racists in this country anymore, however, there is a LOT of prejudice, and there is just as much in the North as in the South, just as much in Democrats, as in Republicans, and a whole s*** LOAD of it going on in these forums.

I got an idea, how about everyone just SHUT THE f*** UP!

[blueduke]

If the South is soooooooo bad, how come you guys keep moving down here? I know quite a few people who lived in NY state, NH, and Mich and they all love it down here. Reasons? it's a whole lot cheaper to live here, it's a safer place to raise a family, and everybody is nice and respectful to them.(their own words. not mine)

[Naples39]

If the South is soooooooo bad, how come you guys keep moving down here? I know quite a few people who lived in NY state, NH, and Mich and they all love it down here. Reasons? it's a whole lot cheaper to live here, it's a safer place to raise a family, and everybody is nice and respectful to them.(their own words. not mine)

Well in my case I came down because I wanted to go to college in a warmer climate than new england, and stayed for a little longer because of a personal relationship. Besides, I clearly never said anything like the south is 'bad', nor that I was treated with disrepect while I was there. I received plenty of ribbing for things like my accent, but besides a few people who thought I was arrogant simply because I was from the north, people were generally always very friendly and nice to me.

If you think I am trying to bash the south and southerners you have totally missed the point of what I was saying. Since obviously I need to reiterate, the point I was making is that my experience would indicate that many people who live in the south were raised to have a worldview that is totally foreign to the rest of the country, and makes politics down there a minefield for democrats these days.

[Naples39]

Sorry, double post.

[pk500]

If the South is soooooooo bad, how come you guys keep moving down here? I know quite a few people who lived in NY state, NH, and Mich and they all love it down here. Reasons? it's a whole lot cheaper to live here, it's a safer place to raise a family, and everybody is nice and respectful to them.(their own words. not mine)

Now that is a gross generalization of the Northeast.

I bought a four-bedroom colonial with 2,700 square feet, a pool and 1.1 acres of land in 1995 for $99,500. I have left my doors wide open on many a warm, summer night after falling asleep on the couch. My car never is locked as it sits in the driveway. My neighbors and townspeople are nice as can be.

And that all exists in Marcellus, N.Y., not Hickory, N.C., or Alpharetta, Ga.

I know a LOT of Northeasterners who have fled to the South, and the common reasons for their departure are twofold -- weather and jobs. The weather is better, and more jobs are available. Yes, they also say the taxes are lower, but the public schools aren't as good, so that's a push. But no question -- better weather and more jobs in the Southeast right now than in the Northeast.

But your other characterizations are stereotypes or myths. I met just as many inconsiderate jackoffs in the South as I have the North during my extensive travel for business from 1993-2001.

As for safety, an internal report from the Atlanta police released earlier this year -- I use Atlanta because it's seen as the center of the modern, urban South -- indicated that the city of Atlanta has a murder rate 520 percent higher than the national average, and residents — especially African Americans — are more likely to be victims of violent crime than are residents of Washington, D.C., Detroit, Chicago or Los Angeles. Source: http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime6.aspx

Out,
PK

[XXXIV]

There is a definate prejudice in the media and in Hollywood towards people from the south.
It may not be as deep or as hate filled as the prejudice some/many? people have towards other ethnic groups..but it is still garbage...

I went to 3rd and 4th grade down south and, at least as a kid , I didnt see any horns growing out of the peoples heads. My parents, who were Greek immigrants( Hardly spoke any english) were treated with nothing but hospitality.

[blueduke]

Naples............I wasn't at all offended by your post but this excerpt surprised me...........

In terms of patriotism, I have been told from many southerners that any 'real southerner' would consider themselves southern first and american second. I've also learned in other conversations and debates that those "SECEDE!!!" bumper sticker I see on trucks and cars are not a joke as I thought they were when I first moved there, and that the 'civil war/war of northern aggression' is looked back upon with fierce pride by many, not as the tragic chapter in our nation's history that I was brought up to believe it was.

I have also witnessed a surprising amount amount of racism, but the sad truth is that the south by no means has a monopoly on racism in this country today.

Believe me the "SECEDE!!!" crowd is a very small minority, but they are always the ones the media love to show when doing a story on the south. What my reply was really addressing was the general perception of northerners of the south. The people I know have all mentioned at one time or another how suprised they were of just how off base thier own perception was before they moved. They figured everyone lived in a double wide with a confederate flag flying in the front yard (we fly them in the back yard on our clothes line. Right beside the car sitting on blocks and the outhouse LOL).

I've been to NYC, Cincinnati, and Hartford on a few occasions. the thing that sticks in my mind the most about those cities isn't the majestic skylines, cold (and man do I mean COLD) weather, their telling me they loved the way I "tawked", or the ridiculous prices on common things (in NYC once I had to pay $3.00 for one freakin onion at a produce store). What I remember the most is when meeting someone on the street that no one looked you in the eye. Ever. One day I just looked at a guy and said (in my best southern drawl) "Hey! How ya doin' t'day?" the guy looked like I was from another planet. Well I am from NC so i guess I am. I'm sure there are plenty of you "fellers" all over the north who are just as cordial as any of us folk. Not trying to be a smartass, just thought I'd bring it up.

[ruscosi]

Regardless of whether or not your man won, these values are what is winning in America today (and there are both Democrats and Republicans that believe them and the candidate that clearly supports them will tend to win future elections):

The ABC's of Reality in America

AIDS has a cure. It's called abstinence.

Belief in God is a cornerstone of our republic.

Character is the single most important attribute in a leader.

Drug legalization will cripple America.

Entrepreneurs are our economic lifeblood and deserve every penny they make

Families are the basic building blocks of society.

Guns are good.

Hyphenated labels are divisive and destructive.

Illegal immigration is dangerous to this country.

Junk science is behind the global warming scare.

Killing through partial-birth abortion is murder.

Liberalism is an ideology doomed to failure.

Military strength deters aggression.

National Security is the first responsibility of the federal government.

Oppression should not be fueled by American capitalism.

Political Correctness is the liberal version of fascism.

Quotas are wrong.

Reagan was right.

Schools are best run by local people on the local level.

Tax rates should be flat and fair.

Unions have outlived their usefulness.

Vigilance is the price of freedom.

Welfare robs people of their dignity and is the poison of capitalism.

Xenophobia (fear or contempt of that which is foreign) is at the root of protectionism.

You and you alone are ultimately responsible for your own destiny.

Zero Tolerance is the only way to effectively deal with crime.

[blueduke]

^^^ What he said

[pk500]

If the cats from the South here at DSP represent Southern people, in general, why are we even having this discussion?

They're all good guys. They all have quirks and certain regional traits -- just like all of us from other parts from the country.

Out,
PK

[pk500]

Blue:

Interesting points about Hartford, Cinci and NYC, but those are all busy urban centers. Not all of the Northeast or North is urban.

I'm sure if you stopped in my village of 1,800 or even Syracuse, with a population of 135,000, that plenty of people who would say hi back to you.

One thing I have noticed during my extensive travels to the South for business and pleasure is that the culture is generally slower. Not slow as in intelligence, but slow as in pace. That slower pace definitely helps foster more eye-to-eye contact and interpersonal communication. But there are places up here where the pace is just as slow and people are just as friendly as anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Again, we live in a sterotypical world. All Southerners are friendly racists who love NASCAR and Bush; all Northerners are cold capitalists who love baseball and Kerry; all Southern Californians are superficial plastic surgery devotees who couldn't give a crap about pro sports because they can't support a team in L.A.

It's all false.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

Interesting electoral map of the 1860 election and how it compares to the 2004 electoral map.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 005108.php

[blueduke]

One thing I have noticed during my extensive travels to the South for business and pleasure is that the culture is generally slower. Not slow as in intelligence, but slow as in pace. That slower pace definitely helps foster more eye-to-eye contact and interpersonal communication. But there are places up here where the pace is just as slow and people are just as friendly as anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Excellent point about the slow pace, PK.

[wco81]

There are places in the world which has a slower pace because of temperature. Countries like Spain have lower productivity than colder countries to the north. Not just because of the heat, which is unbearable at times, but because the Spaniards like to play as well.

Someone once talked about how differently homes are built down in the southern states since the advent of air conditioning. They used to have to account for maximum ventilation but no longer.

[JRod]

I don't know what it is like in the South but I do know that the traditional American city is at war with box stores and surburbia.

Every place I have travelled this election cycle one thing struck me...

Most American cities are indistinguishable. The surberbs of Cleveland have a freaking Chipotle and 24 hr walwart. Small Town Iowa looks exactly like small town colorado except for the scenery.

Its hard for me to find that idealic American town anymore. Outside of Denver in Boulder, Colorado farm land is being sold to developments. Great farm houses across this country are being sold to make way for cookie cutter housing developments.

Passing through Illinois I was amazed just outside of Chicago how in the middle of what seemed like no where was a typical surburban neaighborhood. The same type of bland houses that looked like the ones I've seen everyplace else.

Maybe you guys see the world differently but I was just amazed how American cities have been taken over by cookie cutter houses and coporate stores.

I don't know what this has to do with politics but in my election travels it struck me as very depressing. I always imgines that I would run into these great American towns somewhere. Not were they were some sort of weird nexus back to the 40s. But cities built around the city center with great homes that had some character not the same bland grey and half brick homes you see every where else.

I don't know what this has to do with anything but I've always liked a good American town. I've only run across a few. In the mountains of Colorado along the I-70 corrider they have some great little towns. Surprisingly, Lincoln NE still seemed to good heart to it. (Its funny that the highest building in Lincoln was the football stadium.)

Okay, I've rambled on enough.