Hi, I'm Rally, and..i'm a Madden addict......

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:49 am

Look at Halo and Winning Eleven. Hell, if it wasn't for Winning eleven soccer, we would think that FIFA was the best that programmers could do.

Okay I am staring at my copy of WE7 on my PC. It is purdy. Great as the game is, it still has it's share of issues. As for Fifa well the numbers are still pretty heavy on their side in the US/Europe (well honestly everywhere but Asia). Not that numbers equate to the best game but as much as some people here disapprove of it the game still does well.

This is why the development cycle for these games needs to be longer.

Wait a sec lets back up a second, you stated earlier..

The fact of the matter is that there are other games in both sports (WINNING ELEVEN) and non-sports (HALO) genres feature fantastic AI.

Winning Eleven comes out almost every year. How exactly does Konami do this when you claim the development cycle must be longer? You claim "as fact" that it has great AI, yet they somehow manage to do it in under a year. Do you see a tiny contradiction here?

Release Dates (US - PS2)

WE6 - March 12, 2003
WE7 - February 17, 2004
WE8 - Est Spring 2005

Don't have the Japanese dates but once again you are dealing with roughly a one year (less the 2 year) timeframe for each sequel.

How much time have you spent playing the Winning Eleven series?

Look at Bungie, they are taking 3 years to develop Halo 2 and I quarantee that that game will feature some fantastic AI.

Guarantee? They have not even shown one tiny bit of the single player gameplay and you are making a guarantee? Hey I am sure Halo 2 is going to be great but how much does 3 years have to do with it? Daikatana took three years also to finish also. 3 years does not a great game or AI make.

Money, talent and those marketing guys who make all the big decisions for you. You know green stuff and the people who work for it. How much is EA willing to budget year to year to improve their game. If you do not have the staff/buget, or upper management allowing you to make certain changes, all the time in the world is not going to make a difference. They are also not going to tinker drastically with something that sold 5 million copies last year and is on schedule to do that and more this year.

EA likes spending money in many different ways. Buying out developers, building that large campus in California. Why they could not even fit a good framerate into the budget for NCAA 2005 and a graphical overhaul for any of their football games. Here is hoping for 2006.

Boom · Post by **Boom** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:06 am

Jesus Christ. Hasn't anyone learned not to argue with bdiddy, he'll quote you to death!

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:45 am

This is not a post about comparing the two games or identifying which is better, but more to see if there is more of this out there.

Apparently this isn't possible, because no matter how a thread starts it seems certain people always have to turn it into an argument.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:05 pm

Jesus Christ.

What

Hasn't anyone

You

learned not to argue

Talking

with bdiddy,

About

he'll quote you to death!

Willis

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:07 pm

Here's what I hate about this argument: "I keep calling PLAY X and the AI doesn't stop it."

When is the last time you watched a real football game where the coach called the same play over and over again? The only example I can think of is the Redskins-Broncos Super Bowl, where the Denver defensive AI failed to adapt to the counter-trey

My bottom line is: if I call the game like a real game, does the CPU play realistically? And I think the answer is yes in both Madden and ESPN's case. Most teams don't call the same plays more than a handful of times, and that's usually how I play as well. I just find it more entertaining to work the playbook.

Halo's AI doesn't adapt worth squat, because if it did those idiots would have bum rushed a single soldier and overpowered him instead of hiding behind rocks. Or radioed in an airstrike on the suspected area.

The point of all this is to have fun. I play video games to escape real life for an hour or two, not to be reminded of it.

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:43 pm

Amen Brando. Ultimately all i was saying was that this game has engulfed all of my gaming time and wanted to see who else felt the same. Some people may not feel the same way, and that's great, but for me i can't get enough of it.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:17 pm

I feel the same way, Rally. I like ESPN a lot, but the Madden franchise mode has really been grabbing a lot of my playing time (at least until Pac's ESPN league starts). I started out 0-3 in my Bears season before winning my last two games, and I'm enjoying both the variation in the types of games I'm seeing and the overall challenge from the CPU. I haven't enjoyed a Madden game this much since the 2002 version.

I really like ESPN a lot, and in some ways more, but the oddities in their franchise mode really turned me off to the single-player experience. I don't like playing exhibition games against the CPU.

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:57 pm

Hey Rally & Brando,
I am glad that you guys are enjoying Madden. I have been a die hard Madden fanatic and I think that maybe I have come to expect too much, but at the same time feel that they should be able to produce a game without money plays. I just don't feel that I should have to be afraid to call a play back to back for fear that it may work. This may be due to all of the years of playing nothing but Madden and never even considering giving another football game a chance (besides NCAA). I may just need a change. I purchased 2K5 last night but didn't have much time to play it. Maybe the unfamiliarity to this game will disguise its shortcomings to me. Rally you stated that you have been a 2K fan and found more fun with Madden this year. Hopefully I could find similar enjoyment in 2K5.
Rally- I will pm you when I get a few games under my belt. Are there any official updated rosters for 2k5 available for download to those of us without Xbox live? Do you have any suggestions as to what settings, qtr length to use? Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:58 pm

Brando, you just described my feelings perfectly.

I have (finally!!) come to a conclusion on which football I'll be spending my time with this fall. I'm choosing Madden. The gameplay of ESPN vs. Madden is a close race, but the race for the franchise aspect is no contest. Overall, Madden is the more solid title for me. I just could not get past issues like QBs returning punts, broken salary caps, rookie drafts where only 4 positions go in the first round, and depth charts that switch Corey Fuller to CB and Buchannon to Safety.

Sorry, I got a little into the ESPN vs. Madden, but I wanted to explain to guys like PanthersFan WHY I'll be playing Madden instead of ESPN. Neither is perfect, but Madden doesn't have issues that send me over the edge.

Boom · Post by **Boom** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:11 pm

If you've been a die-hard madden fanatic up until this point why have the money plays in previous years not been a problem?

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:15 pm

Boom wrote:If you've been a die-hard madden fanatic up until this point why have the money plays in previous years not been a problem?

Ah ha! Now we are getting somewhere!

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:50 pm

PantherFan,

You may be right about the freshness of switching. I bought ESPN and Madden last year and wound up playing 4 seasons of ESPN vs. 1 season of Madden. Now this year, as far as one-player goes, I'm really getting into Madden. But ESPN is a very good game and I can't wait to get into league play with it.

There are no roster downloads for ESPN yet, and frankly, Sega has been very slow in the past with them for all their games.

As for ESPN settings, I found I needed 9 minute quarters to get realistic number of plays. Due to the amount of pre-snap reads I tend to make in that game, I often use a lot of play clock. As for settings, I'd start with All-Pro, them bump up CPU passing and running sliders to 75-100%, and turn interceptions way the hell down (you'll still see a lot, but probably not 5-7 a game!). For simming games, I found the default 5 minute setting worked well. Also, if you start a franchise, I'd recommend turning off preseason and also weekly prep, at least until after the trade deadline. Those two elements lead to a lot of wacky trades and cuts. You may still see some goofy trades, but the number will be greatly reduced.

paytonsplace · Post by **paytonsplace** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:36 am

bdoughty wrote:
Look at Halo and Winning Eleven. Hell, if it wasn't for Winning eleven soccer, we would think that FIFA was the best that programmers could do.
Okay I am staring at my copy of WE7 on my PC. It is purdy. Great as the game is, it still has it's share of issues. As for Fifa well the numbers are still pretty heavy on their side in the US/Europe (well honestly everywhere but Asia). Not that numbers equate to the best game but as much as some people here disapprove of it the game still does well.

This is why the development cycle for these games needs to be longer.
Wait a sec lets back up a second, you stated earlier..

The fact of the matter is that there are other games in both sports (WINNING ELEVEN) and non-sports (HALO) genres feature fantastic AI.
Winning Eleven comes out almost every year. How exactly does Konami do this when you claim the development cycle must be longer? You claim "as fact" that it has great AI, yet they somehow manage to do it in under a year. Do you see a tiny contradiction here?

Release Dates (US - PS2)

WE6 - March 12, 2003
WE7 - February 17, 2004
WE8 - Est Spring 2005

Don't have the Japanese dates but once again you are dealing with roughly a one year (less the 2 year) timeframe for each sequel.

How much time have you spent playing the Winning Eleven series?

Look at Bungie, they are taking 3 years to develop Halo 2 and I quarantee that that game will feature some fantastic AI.
Guarantee? They have not even shown one tiny bit of the single player gameplay and you are making a guarantee? Hey I am sure Halo 2 is going to be great but how much does 3 years have to do with it? Daikatana took three years also to finish also. 3 years does not a great game or AI make.

Money, talent and those marketing guys who make all the big decisions for you. You know green stuff and the people who work for it. How much is EA willing to budget year to year to improve their game. If you do not have the staff/buget, or upper management allowing you to make certain changes, all the time in the world is not going to make a difference. They are also not going to tinker drastically with something that sold 5 million copies last year and is on schedule to do that and more this year.

EA likes spending money in many different ways. Buying out developers, building that large campus in California. Why they could not even fit a good framerate into the budget for NCAA 2005 and a graphical overhaul for any of their football games. Here is hoping for 2006.

Don't get your point about FIFA. As for Winning 11, the game engine is solid, has been for several seasons now. And yes I play alot of Winning 11. I bought a PS2 just to play that game. And yep, it is a fact Winning Eleven has GREAT AI, play it you'll find out.

Implicit in the development time is that money and effort are going into the production of a game. My quarantee on the AI of Halo2 is due to my observation of what Bungie did in less than a year of development time for Halo 1. I tell you what, I'll be sure to check these boards come Nov. 9 so that you can tell me how bad the AI in Halo 2 is. Somehow I don't think you'll be doing that. Meanwhile make sure to avoid Singleback->>Trips Double Slant

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:59 am

I bought a PS2 just to play that game. And yep, it is a fact Winning Eleven has GREAT AI, play it you'll find out.

You should have read my whole reply.

Okay I am staring at my copy of WE7 on my PC. It is purdy.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:14 pm

Well, I'm definitely getting sucked in to Madden now. I managed to right my 0-3 start with the Bears to 3-3 after an exciting 28-23 win at Tampa Bay. Jerry Azumah has returned kickoffs for TDs in my last two games, and both were things of beauty -- good blocking, hitting the opening just right, and laying on the sprint. I also had a nice play where Grossman pump faked, Ronde Barber hestiated, and I was able to go over the top to David Terrell for a TD.

Funny thing is, I can't quite put my finger on why Madden's giving me that "one more game" feeling while ESPN did not. Part of it is the superior franchise mode, but there's just a certain level of speed and excitement that I haven't really felt in Madden since the PSX days. It's almost like Madden 2005 plays the way I expected NCAA 2005 to play.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:27 pm

I'm playing both games side by side... I'm (2-3) in ESPN and (0-5) in Madden.

I have that one more game feeling with both games.

Two features I really wish ESPN had:

1. In-game saves
2. Box Scores for every game played.

These two features in Madden I really like.

I know we say this every damn year, but I really think if both companies listen to what gamers are saying about one another, comparing them both feature wise, I think we'll see the pinnacle of football games next season.... NCAA included.

Now bring back Tecmo Super Bowl!!

Todd

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:37 pm

Now bring back Tecmo Super Bowl!!

Oh heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell no...

The last thing I want is to see Tecmo face the wrath of the internet sports gaming community. Baseball Stars, Tecmo Bowl and all the other classics need to stay just that... Classics.

EDiddy · Post by **EDiddy** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:57 pm

Baseball Stars, I have always felt one of the greates sports games of all time. Would crash, but I would love cutting the players and see the cut scene. Great Stuff