Hi, I'm Rally, and..i'm a Madden addict......

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:49 am

This is not a post about comparing the two games or identifying which is better, but more to see if there is more of this out there. I was ESPN or bust for three years until i gave this one a shot.

For the first time in a LONG time a game has me running back to my machine to play. Every other game in my inventory is neglected as i move on in my franchise or jump online. It has become my albatross. Up until 1:30 last night because i just had to "get one more in" with Sport73. Jumped online after the wife left to buy groceries to play a half yesterday morning even though i had 50 things to do to prepare for 15 guests that were due in less than an hour. Leaving work to pick up my kids but stopping home to play a quarter knowing i may not get on until after 10:00pm...if at all. Why you ask? I'm not sure. But i think i can sum it up quickly (and again, i am 100% focused on SOLELY Madden here, leave your "ESPN is better" comments somewhere else because i like that game too)

I feel like everything i do in Madden is a direct result of a play call, a poor decision, the wrong defense, etc. Are there dropped passes or DB's who make great plays. Yep, but that happens in football. I feel totally in control of each and every outcome of this game and overall i think that is what has captured my gaming life.

Put another way, this is the "Splinter Cell" of my sports world. SC was the first and only game i played to it's finish and i did it because i felt like every decision i made directly impacted the rest of the game, thus making it my fault if i got killed, or my direct success if i completed a mission. I didn't "ooops" or "cheat" my way to success. Madden is the first sports game in a LONG time (possibly ever) where i can say the same thing.

Anyway, just had to post this because i needed to hear if after two weeks others felt the same.

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:05 am

Rally,

It's good to see you taking responsibility both for your addiction, and your INABILITY TO BEAT ME!

At least you're not blaming the game...since you "feel totally in control of each and every outcome" it's clear that the only thing that beat your ass so solidly was me and my superior play.

I too am a Madden addict.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:26 am

I find myself in somewhat of a quandary with the football games this year. I find myself wanting to play both games each night I get a chance to play but rarely have the time, outside of weekends, to do so. Do I play Madden and not ESPN? Do I play ESPN and not Madden? Do I neglect both and play R63:BA? It's only going to get worse once ESPN Hockey and Fable come out. I find myself popping a game in if my wife takes a crap just so I can get a few plays in, cursing the damn loading screens for taking precious gameplay time away from me. Do I slip the wife a mickey and take advantage of my Xbox? Oh, I'm addicted all right.

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:34 am

What Sport fails to mention is the 12 years of futility when it came to playing me in ANYTHING!!!!! Of course, you feel free to latch onto these few days, because it's not long before there is a constant return to "the norm". And deep down you KNOW it.

And Scoop, i hear ya man. Absolutely a problem right now, and it's only going to get worse. Sent you a PM also.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:06 pm

I too am becoming addicted to good ol' madden. A year off can do wonders!

The stupid EA online crap really drives me insane, though. I just wish it were truly XBL, not this stupid BS. In the dashboard, I can see if someone is on in Madden, but can't tell if they're in a game or waiting in the lobby, at least not until I boot up the game and go through the tedious sign-in process for EA online. Of course, once I'm in EA online, the friends list is of minimal, if any, use. It's never accurate as to who is on (outside of the 2 EA games), and never shows what game they're playing. It's an unbelievable pain in the ass.

(Also, I want to know what is up with the audio settings never being loaded. It shows me 'loading settings' when I boot up the game, but the audio settings don't get loaded. I need to go into load/save every time I boot the game and load settings in order to get the audio mix I set. Same thing happens in NCAA. WTF is that about?)

The rushing attack mode online is a really great thing, too. It's a great way to warm-up for that Madden action, get some timing down for the moves in the running, get some tackling in. And it's so quick. Love it.

The weird thing is I will end up reluctantly playing some games of ESPN (mostly due to the XBL functionality making it so easy to get a game in with a friend), and I end up having tons of fun in that game, too. It's not the same, none of the zippy player control or fun of playing a LB or a safety, making tackles, juking players out of their shoes, shifting formations, flopping the run plays, etc. etc. But it is still a fun football game, a game where playcalling is supreme, I guess.

Still, I keep wanting to get back to Madden.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:15 pm

This is definitely one of those years that I look forward to. Being able to play both games will keep the other one fresh. The fact that I don't find one terribly better than the other is a good thing in my mind. Sure it's 70 dollars for a football game, but both are fairly solid.

I just like the fact that I can play through a few games of Madden and then switch over to ESPN to get a few games in there. This will allow the games to last a bit longer in my library.

Here's to hoping we can say the same thing about the baseball games come spring.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:41 pm

I'm hooked myself.

I took my Bears to the post season with a 10 win season. (I need to step up to All-Madden next franchise year)

My first opponent was the Redskins, a team that had trounced me during the regular season. I mean beat me by like 34 points.

I couldn't play yesterday during the day and I found myself thinking about that game all day. What do I do? How do I generate offense against them? What Defensive scheme do I use.

I went into practice mode to try and figure out what to do. It seemed to me that the Skins were weak against the Run. I recall throwing a lot of picks in my game against them earlier in the season.

It just so happens that the run has become my strength in the game, I lost Booker in week 8 for the season and I traded Terrell when he was bitching about not being happy. I started working on a 1-2 punch with running. Jones from the single back sets and Thomas from the I.

Anyway I won the game, putting up a combined total of 264 rushing yards (the most I have done this year) and by controlling the clock. I had one drive that was 23 plays and last over 9 minutes.

Up tonioght the Bucs and I sit here and can't wait to get out of work!

GridIronGhost · Post by **GridIronGhost** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:59 pm

Danimal wrote:I'm hooked myself.

I took my Bears to the post season with a 10 win season. (I need to step up to All-Madden next franchise year)

My first opponent was the Redskins, a team that had trounced me during the regular season. I mean beat me by like 34 points.

I couldn't play yesterday during the day and I found myself thinking about that game all day. What do I do? How do I generate offense against them? What Defensive scheme do I use.

I went into practice mode to try and figure out what to do. It seemed to me that the Skins were weak against the Run. I recall throwing a lot of picks in my game against them earlier in the season.

It just so happens that the run has become my strength in the game, I lost Booker in week 8 for the season and I traded Terrell when he was b*tching about not being happy. I started working on a 1-2 punch with running. Jones from the single back sets and Thomas from the I.

Anyway I won the game, putting up a combined total of 264 rushing yards (the most I have done this year) and by controlling the clock. I had one drive that was 23 plays and last over 9 minutes.

Up tonioght the Bucs and I sit here and can't wait to get out of work!

I see now why you have no time for our ESPN league.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:38 pm

I picked up Madden, too, after being away from it for a year. I like that it offers a totally different experience than ESPN. Like DB said, it helps keep both games fresh.

On the field, I still probably prefer ESPN a little more. I love the running game, and I feel more in control in passing the football than I do in Madden. The hit stick in Madden is growing on me, though. I had a game with the Bears where I drilled someone with Lance Briggs and forced a fumble and it felt really exhilerating (as far as video games go).

Madden has really won me over with the franchise mode this year. It will probably be my single-player game of choice for that reason.

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:03 pm

I know that I am going to upset quite a few of you who have been won over by Madden 2005 this year, by saying that this years Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game ! I have always been a Madden/EA fan....until this year. Now don't think I am all hyped about 2K5, because I have never played the game nor have I intended to (Until Now). This game engine needs a complete overhaul. EA has been selling there games by hype alone (I was one of the many who were waiting at my local EB games for the shipment to arrive at 10:00 P.M. Even going as far as to have my wife and 2 year old son leave the mall and come back to get me, because I could not wait until the next day to play Madden. The computer can not stop the slant routes, and just for the heck of it I tested the A.I by putting the punt block in on 1st down against the Jets who were in a 3 WR set.....and they ran the ball !! Wheres the A.I. in that ! We as fanatical football fans have been settling for mediocre games. I so badly wanted this game to be good and was counting the days untill it was released (College is horrible also).
EA will never change if we all blindly purchase these games yearly for $50.00. I for one will never purchase another EA title again without 1st renting it and waiting at least a month until all of the flaws have been exposed. I guess I will have to give Winning Eleven a chance when it hits for the Xbox. I've read nothing but phenomenal things about the A.I. for years. Thank God EA did not get the exclusive rights to the NFLPA or we would all be screwed. I'm gonna go and purchase 2K5 now just to pump up their sales and hopefully put some pressure on EA to make a good game.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:12 pm

PantherFan I just attempted to translate your post using an english to gibberish web translator. Nothing changed...

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:37 pm

bdoughty wrote:PantherFan I just attempted to translate your post using an english to gibberish web translator. Nothing changed...

Hey Bdoughty - Can you at least feel the total frustration! To make it simple, Madden 2005 is flawed. I do not "Fear the D" as it states on the back of the box. The A.I. does not adapt. There are money plays which kill this game for me. I was loving this game until I hit a slant pattern in the WR trips formation, again and again and again. The A.I. should adapt to this. To further test this I put in the punt block against the Jets and they lined up in the Pro formation with Moss wide open unchallenged on the right and McCarreins on the left, and they ran the ball into the line. I am not trolling or looking to upset people, I only want a solid game for my hard earned $50.00, and these things are just unexcusable to me now. I can only hope that EA is putting all of their resources for a revolutionary NFL launch title for PS3 or Xbox2.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:44 pm

Well, that's why I like to play people. Even in the magical world of WE, playing against a human is infinitely more fun and satisfying. Thank the fates for online play!

I guess I'm saying, i'm sorry you are so disappointed, and feel gipped. But everything you said just doesn't phase me, because I never really expect it to be 'all that.' I'll play the CPU to practice plays, and sometimes I'll get through a whole game. But I've never found it very compelling, not much at all. Playing against people is compelling.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:05 pm

Hey Bdoughty - Can you at least feel the total frustration!

I am not trolling or looking to upset people, I only want a solid game for my hard earned $50.00, and these things are just unexcusable to me now.

Um no, not when the best you could do was...

Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game !

You see that is the very definition of trolling as you do not give any examples. At least in your reply you made some attempt at an explantion but nothing that would make me use the term "fecal matter".

Post by **Jared** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:30 pm

bdoughty wrote:
Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game !
You see that is the very definition of trolling as you do not give any examples. At least in your reply you made some attempt at an explantion but nothing that would make me use the term "fecal matter".

As occasional defender of the newbies, I must say that he DOES give examples.

The computer can not stop the slant routes, and just for the heck of it I tested the A.I by putting the punt block in on 1st down against the Jets who were in a 3 WR set.....and they ran the ball !!

Those seem like examples to me. It's a troll if he just posts "MADDEN SuX TeH DONKEY" or similar....but here he goes give some examples. True...it was a bit of a rant...but he did give examples and shouldn't be criticized for trolling here.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:36 pm

My bad, excuse me for even bringing it up as I should not have even criticized his post to begin with.

I now give the post two thumbs up. Madden is fecal matter with absolutely no AI whatsoever.

YEA!

Now please excuse me as I have to insert a pile of s*** into my Xbox.

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:47 pm

I'm confused by all this. "The AI does not adapt" makes me feel as though you could run the same play, over and over and over and over and complete it more than you don't. Are there plays that seem to work better, hell yes, and sorry to disappoint, but there will NEVER be a computer game that plays like real life folks, sorry to burst some of your bubbles. But even on All-Pro, after two attemps to run the same play, i WATCH the defense change and shift to adapt. I've seen a "money" play broken up doing the EXACT same thing i just did when it worked. To me that's the best we can hope for. I imagine on All-Madden it's even more so.

Bottom line for me, when i turn off Madden i feel i've earned a victory or am responsible for the defeat. That's what this game has that i haven't found anywhere else. And again, i'm an ESPN guy through and through. Still enjoy the game, won't knock the game, just right now i feel more satisfied (gaming wise--

) with Madden.

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:02 pm

bdoughty wrote:

Hey Bdoughty - Can you at least feel the total frustration!

I am not trolling or looking to upset people, I only want a solid game for my hard earned $50.00, and these things are just unexcusable to me now.

Um no, not when the best you could do was...

Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game !
You see that is the very definition of trolling as you do not give any examples. At least in your reply you made some attempt at an explantion but nothing that would make me use the term "fecal matter".

Hypotheticallly speaking. If you were to purchase for X amount of dollars a progressive scan dvd player (as stated by the salesman & printed on the box) and you got it home, hooked it up and realized that it is not progressive scan would you take solace in the other bells and whistles that it had, or would you feel as a consumer ripped off by not getting what you paid for ? How about when you tried to return it and they offered you 1/2 the price in store credit?
I have always, and will continue to value and respect the opinions expressed in this forum and look forward to reading them daily.
If you would like more of an explanation as to the problems go to Operation Sports. There are a few post's over there giving examples and details.

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:17 pm

RallyMonkey wrote:I'm confused by all this. "The AI does not adapt" makes me feel as though you could run the same play, over and over and over and over and complete it more than you don't. Are there plays that seem to work better, hell yes, and sorry to disappoint, but there will NEVER be a computer game that plays like real life folks, sorry to burst some of your bubbles. But even on All-Pro, after two attemps to run the same play, i WATCH the defense change and shift to adapt. I've seen a "money" play broken up doing the EXACT same thing i just did when it worked. To me that's the best we can hope for. I imagine on All-Madden it's even more so.

Bottom line for me, when i turn off Madden i feel i've earned a victory or am responsible for the defeat. That's what this game has that i haven't found anywhere else. And again, i'm an ESPN guy through and through. Still enjoy the game, won't knock the game, just right now i feel more satisfied (gaming wise-- ) with Madden.

Hi Rally,
I'm sad to say that you can run the same play over and over and over and over and complete it 99% of the time. This is on the all-pro and all madden settings with default sliders and adjusted sliders. I too was absolutely loving this game until I found this. I am glad you are enjoying the game (I sure as hell wish I was). As far as saying that there will never be a computer game that plays like real life, you are playing right into the manufacturers hands. Have you ever played Halo ? Granted I have never fought aliens in real life, but the game A.I. adapts. There is absolutely no reason why a team should not audible out of a running play when I put in the punt block on 1st down. I don't want to ruin the game for you, but if you would like more info go to Operation sports.
P.S. I was considering purchasing 2k5, what do you like and dislike about it? I have heard that the A.I. adapts to your style of playcalling.

PantherFan · Post by **PantherFan** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:23 pm

Jared wrote:
bdoughty wrote:
Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game !
You see that is the very definition of trolling as you do not give any examples. At least in your reply you made some attempt at an explantion but nothing that would make me use the term "fecal matter".
As occasional defender of the newbies, I must say that he DOES give examples.

The computer can not stop the slant routes, and just for the heck of it I tested the A.I by putting the punt block in on 1st down against the Jets who were in a 3 WR set.....and they ran the ball !!
Those seem like examples to me. It's a troll if he just posts "MADDEN SuX TeH DONKEY" or similar....but here he goes give some examples. True...it was a bit of a rant...but he did give examples and shouldn't be criticized for trolling here.

Jared - Thanks for the defense. Sorry for the rant. Thanks for this forum to post it.
Take Care

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:27 pm

Panther,

I agree with your punt situation, that's absurd, but having said that, how often do you see an NFL punt team in there against an offensive unit? The developers probably didn't feel the need to protect against that.

I am enjoying the game and it really does give me a complete football feel. Your Halo analogy is a little off topic because while it is a GREAT game, i was talking about sports games, my bad, i should have stated that in my previous post.
Think about it, every hoops, football, hockey, baseball, racing, etc game out there has been beaten from pillar to post on this forum because it always has "fatal flaws". We always write "it's a great game" then a few days later "it's a good game but........" then finally "this game just isn't getting the play time anymore........can't wait for "X" game to come out in a week."

Those of us who are true sports gamers will NEVER be 100% satisfied with any sports games. It's just the expectations we (or i'll say "I") have for sports games. As a hockey coach and player for 30 years, i will ALWAYS find faults with hockey games. But i still loved ESPN last year. Such is the case with Madden. I have found this to be the real deal for me.

As far as ESPN, i STRONGLY encourage you to pick it up. A great game..........but it has a flaw or two and just isn't getting the play time anymore.........

If you do grab it i'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Shoot me a PM if you end up with it.
Oh, and as a Patriots fan and season ticket holder, sorry about last year.

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm

If you do grab it i'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Shoot me a PM if you end up with it.
Oh, and as a Patriots fan and season ticket holder, sorry about last year.

I think Rally pretty much put an end to this debate with that one...hahaha....

[/quote]

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:27 pm

Hypotheticallly speaking. If you were to purchase for X amount of dollars a progressive scan dvd player (as stated by the salesman & printed on the box) and you got it home, hooked it up and realized that it is not progressive scan would you take solace in the other bells and whistles that it had, or would you feel as a consumer ripped off by not getting what you paid for ?

I looked on the back of the Madden box and did not see anything that could be construed "false advertising". Maybe the CPU fears your "d"?

On the other hand ESPN 2K5 has a quote on the back of their box from IGN stating that the game will own my soul? I sold my soul to the devil a long time ago, threfore making that statement untrue. Class Action Lawsuit against Sega anyone?

How about when you tried to return it and they offered you 1/2 the price in store credit?

What does EA have to do with a gamestores policy on returns? You could get more money off the game selling it on half.com or ebay or to a friend? I don't see how your desire to accept what EB or Gamestop gives you for trade in has anything to do with the discussion at hand? If anything it just shows once again you taking the argument to an extreme. You are now one of the many EA haters in this world. Congrats it is a pretty large club you just joined.

If you would like more of an explanation as to the problems go to Operation Sports. There are a few post's over there giving examples and details.

Operation What? You mean for me to have a dicussion with you I have to read posts on another message board?

As far as saying that there will never be a computer game that plays like real life, you are playing right into the manufacturers hands. Have you ever played Halo ? Granted I have never fought aliens in real life, but the game A.I. adapts.

Adapts? You are kidding right? Even the folks at Bungie would not go out on that limb. Now if by "adapting" you mean the grunts run away every time they see the Master Chiefs gun then okay... Oh sure every FPS in the world claims "smarter AI" just like sports games. Enter Flood, shoot flood, enter more flood, rinse, repeat. Of course you could say that about the level design of the last 4-5 missions. Whoops, I said a bad thing about Halo....

TRI · Post by **TRI** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:03 pm

PantherFan wrote:I know that I am going to upset quite a few of you who have been won over by Madden 2005 this year, by saying that this years Madden is a worthless piece of fecal matter. There is no A.I in this game ! I have always been a Madden/EA fan....until this year. Now don't think I am all hyped about 2K5, because I have never played the game nor have I intended to (Until Now). This game engine needs a complete overhaul. EA has been selling there games by hype alone (I was one of the many who were waiting at my local EB games for the shipment to arrive at 10:00 P.M. Even going as far as to have my wife and 2 year old son leave the mall and come back to get me, because I could not wait until the next day to play Madden. The computer can not stop the slant routes, and just for the heck of it I tested the A.I by putting the punt block in on 1st down against the Jets who were in a 3 WR set.....and they ran the ball !! Wheres the A.I. in that ! We as fanatical football fans have been settling for mediocre games. I so badly wanted this game to be good and was counting the days untill it was released (College is horrible also).
EA will never change if we all blindly purchase these games yearly for $50.00. I for one will never purchase another EA title again without 1st renting it and waiting at least a month until all of the flaws have been exposed. I guess I will have to give Winning Eleven a chance when it hits for the Xbox. I've read nothing but phenomenal things about the A.I. for years. Thank God EA did not get the exclusive rights to the NFLPA or we would all be screwed. I'm gonna go and purchase 2K5 now just to pump up their sales and hopefully put some pressure on EA to make a good game.

I understand your frustration with Madden and other football games. I think the money play problem in video football games is due mostly to a lack of memory. The CPU will select a defensive set based on down,distance, and your offensive set and then randomally select a defensive play for that set. The problem comes when your offense play is too effective against that defensive play and the CPU continues to call plays randomally that are NOT effective in countering your play calling tendencies. In short, the CPU NEVER really adusts. It all seems so random and this is why there are money plays. The simplistic one button passing model also does not help. Unfortunately, this problem will not likely go away until at least he next generation hardware.

paytonsplace · Post by **paytonsplace** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:22 am

RallyMonkey wrote: Are there plays that seem to work better, hell yes, and sorry to disappoint, but there will NEVER be a computer game that plays like real life folks, sorry to burst some of your bubbles.

And on what basis do you make this claim? Are you an expert in Artificial Intelligence? Do you work for a major gaming company? The fact of the matter is that there are other games in both sports and non-sports genres feature fantastic AI. Look at Halo and Winning Eleven. Hell, if it wasn't for Winning eleven soccer, we would think that FIFA was the best that programmers could do. The fact is this, Madden's non adaptive AI stems from a core engine that is one generation behind. This is not surprising, If you only had a years worth of time to bring out a new version. This is why the development cycle for these games needs to be longer. Look at Bungie, they are taking 3 years to develop Halo 2 and I quarantee that that game will feature some fantastic AI. I would gladly wait two to three years for a new Madden AI game engine.