OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

Mercedes engine sweeps the first three rows at Manza. They own the straights.

Hamilton with the pole and Rosberg right there next to him.

Thi should be interesting tomorrow. 8)
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

XXXIV wrote:Mercedes engine sweeps the first three rows at Manza. They own the straights.

Hamilton with the pole and Rosberg right there next to him.

Thi should be interesting tomorrow. 8)
Stoked to see the continued Williams resurgence.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

Hamilton brings it on home.

I would not want to be Rosberg right now. I think Lewis takes him down and that he is scared. Why he pulled that s*** last race.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

Di Montezemolo calls it quits. The Prancing Mule needs to bring back Ross Brawn. :)
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by F308GTB »

Anyone catch the Formula E race? It was interesting to see all the former F1 drivers in the field. Hopefully the series will accelerate/improve electric technology, as having to switch to a backup car after 40-45 miles to complete the final 40-45 miles is unacceptable. Felt more like a triathlon with drivers going into the transition zone to get their bike gear on.

Watching the race was almost unbearable. The sounds from the electric cars were excruciating. That high pitched whine needs to be toned down in the race audio.

The last corner crash was interesting. Prost totally screwed not seeing Heidfeld as he tried to pass on the inside, which caused Heidfeld to get loose, hit the curb, and go airborne. When it happened it looked bad. Really bad. Was great to see Nick crawl out of the car unhurt.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

You're giving Prost far too much credit, James. He had to know Heidfeld would attempt an inside move in the last corner -- you can see Prost spending more time driving with his mirrors than his visor leading into that corner.

That was a blatant block by Prost, who should have received a proper bollocking from the stewards after the race.

I'm ambivalent about Formula E. Cool concept for the future, and the series has a roster filled with a surprisingly strong pedigree of drivers. But the silent cars are deafening and odd, and the chassis are VERY ugly.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

The only thing worse than Prost's swerve that day was his attempt to blame Heidfeld in his interview afterwards. It's one thing to suggest that Nick wouldn't have made the corner but it's quite another to deprive him of the opportunity.

I enjoyed it and didn't mind the noise so much, though I drive an electric car between offices at work, so I'm growing accustomed to journeys that lack aural pleasure. There were various little irritations on the world feed - the music, the SSX Tricky stylings of the "S-S-Safety Caaaar" announcement over the PA, Jack Nicholls proclaiming on 4 consecutive laps that Heidfeld was "starting to push", Dario never quite locating the end of a sentence - but the racing was decent even on an uninspiring track.

PK, there was a Formula E car in the entrance hall at the Donington museum when I was last there on Easter weekend. It looked better and more purposeful up close - in fact, it looked faster stood still than it did on the TV broadcast.

I saw the Cosworth 4WD F1 car and a March 721 that day too. These things are all relative but the Formula E car is Cameron Diaz next to those two...
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

Nico Rosberg. Bad karma buddy.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by F308GTB »

XXXIV wrote:Nico Rosberg. Bad karma buddy.
I'll admit I was a bit upbeat when I saw he was stalled on the grid. As the problems worsened, however, I was getting concerned for Lewis and that a golden opportunity may be wasted by a common problem. Great drive by Lewis today pushing on the super softs well after their prime to gap the Red Bulls and Alonso after the safety car. Too bad Alonso didn't get a podium. I thought with slightly newer tires than either Red Bull he might have moved a spot or two.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

F308GTB wrote:
XXXIV wrote:Nico Rosberg. Bad karma buddy.
I'll admit I was a bit upbeat when I saw he was stalled on the grid. As the problems worsened, however, I was getting concerned for Lewis and that a golden opportunity may be wasted by a common problem. Great drive by Lewis today pushing on the super softs well after their prime to gap the Red Bulls and Alonso after the safety car. Too bad Alonso didn't get a podium. I thought with slightly newer tires than either Red Bull he might have moved a spot or two.
I set the alarm to watch the race. I was disappointed a little that I didnt get to see the Mercedes try to whack each other... 8)

I think now we are even after Nico's bs at Spa?

Should be a great drive for the championship.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Smurfy »

It would have been easier for Prost to tell that Heidfeld was on his left side if he could actually hear the car. :D

I'm glad the F1 standings have tightened up, but I just can't help wonder if there's a little conspiracy at work here. Perhaps someone had to compensate for the skewed luck that had given Rosberg too much of a championship lead? Either way, I'll bet both Mercedes drivers will have a little fear in the backs of their minds for the remaining races. Something like, "Please may this car not die on me now!"

And how about team Penske in NASCAR? They're on a bit of a roll lately.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

Hot off the press !!!

Vettel is leaving Red Bull and the rumor is he's headed to Ferrari to replace Alonso. Daniel Kvyat is replacing Vettel. So it looks like Alonso is going to McLaren after all.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

Rodster wrote:Hot off the press !!!

Vettel is leaving Red Bull and the rumor is he's headed to Ferrari to replace Alonso. Daniel Kvyat is replacing Vettel. So it looks like Alonso is going to McLaren after all.
I havent decided why yet but .....I like it!

Its far too late to be april fools right?
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

I still hate Suzuka.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Enjoyable though the bulk of that race was, the only thing that matters is whether Jules Bianchi pulls through. The latest news is that he has suffered a severe head injury, is being operated on and will be placed into intensive care once the procedure is completed. Keep him in your thoughts, fellas.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

GB_Simo wrote: the only thing that matters is whether Jules Bianchi pulls through.
Yes.

If a race needs to start that way, with a safety car, does it need to be run at all? Who decides?

I read a couple of drivers thought it was okay but I think they would race on snow.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Charlie Whiting and his Race Control team decide whether to go racing. Nowadays, races start behind the Safety Car as a matter of course if the track is any more than damp - look up the start at Spa in 1998 for the driving force behind that decision - and there was no reason to doubt that decision today. Even in the wetter conditions of the final laps, it appeared safe enough - the only incident of any note was the one we now find ourselves hoping for the best with and I was genuinely more worried about the fading light than the rain. Compare today with Fuji 07, Silverstone 08 and Sepang 09 and 12, races where it was really, properly wet, to see what I mean.

I'd also recommend looking up Adelaide 89 and 91, earlier examples of H2O intrusion from a time before safety cars - Senna hitting Brundle in 89 because he just couldn't see the car ahead is as scary as you want it to be, as is the Piquet/Ghinzani crash in the same race.

I've been sent a link to a comparison between an intact Marussia and the car of Bianchi post-accident. I won't link to it because I'm really not sure it's right to do so, but there appears to be a good 6 inches of car missing from the area immediately behind the the driver's headrest, which is some indication of how bad a hit this was.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by XXXIV »

GB_Simo wrote:Charlie Whiting and his Race Control team decide whether to go racing. Nowadays, races start behind the Safety Car as a matter of course if the track is any more than damp - look up the start at Spa in 1998 for the driving force behind that decision - and there was no reason to doubt that decision today. Even in the wetter conditions of the final laps, it appeared safe enough - the only incident of any note was the one we now find ourselves hoping for the best with and I was genuinely more worried about the fading light than the rain. Compare today with Fuji 07, Silverstone 08 and Sepang 09 and 12, races where it was really, properly wet, to see what I mean.

I'd also recommend looking up Adelaide 89 and 91, earlier examples of H2O intrusion from a time before safety cars - Senna hitting Brundle in 89 because he just couldn't see the car ahead is as scary as you want it to be, as is the Piquet/Ghinzani crash in the same race.

I've been sent a link to a comparison between an intact Marussia and the car of Bianchi post-accident. I won't link to it because I'm really not sure it's right to do so, but there appears to be a good 6 inches of car missing from the area immediately behind the the driver's headrest, which is some indication of how bad a hit this was.
This is why I asked and yes I dont need to see the hit.

Thanks Adam.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

I'm now watching the pre-race buildup as i'm waiting for the rest of the files to download. According to Martin Brundle and Johnny Herbert, the FIA notified Honda the race promoter twice, to move the race to a 1pm start and they declined. So I can't see how the FIA could be blamed for what unfortunately might turn out to be a tragedy. I hope he makes it as everyone else does but it doesn't look good.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

XXXIV wrote:This is why I asked and yes I dont need to see the hit.

Thanks Adam.
It's a picture of an empty car rather than of anything graphic but I felt broadly the same about it, mate, though images from the scene are becoming increasingly difficult to avoid through mainstream sources.

Rod, the only possible criticism you could level at the FIA is that perhaps Sutil's crash merited a safety car and perhaps that might have prevented what happened next. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and, dependent upon the timing of any such safety car, there's a chance that Bianchi might still have been at or near racing speed upon arriving at Dunlop curve in any case. We'll never know and as far as I can see, neither could the FIA have done.

Adding to a thoroughly, thoroughly bleak day for motor sport, news of the death of Andrea de Cesaris in a motorcycle accident. De Crasheris, they called him, and not completely without reason, but he became a very solid driver who was occasionally capable - Long Beach 82, Spa in 83 and again in 91, when he damn near gave Jordan a win in their first season - of taking the fight to the very best. Rest in peace, Andrea:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116184
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Jalopnik has posted a video of the Bianchi crash shot from the stands by a spectator. It offers a clear view of the ferocity of the impact and accident.

I'm thankful Jules Bianchi is still alive. But after watching that video, it's almost a miracle he wasn't beheaded in the wreck, similar to Francois Cevert's death in 1973 at Watkins Glen.

#ForzaJules
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

American doctor Gary Hartstein, who was FIA Medical Director for nearly a decade in F1, is writing regularly about the Bianchi incident at his excellent blog: http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/

Hartstein was the right-hand man to Professor Sid Watkins, longtime FIA medical delegate who revolutionized the sport's safety after Senna's death. Sid was featured in the superb documentary, "Senna."

Hartstein's blog was an oasis of frank, honest, knowledge in the immediate days after Michael Schumacher's skiing accident. Hartstein was one of the few people who indicated the severity of Schumi's injuries and their long-term implications.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Seconding the recommendation on Hartstein's blog. Well written, utilising an enormous amount of knowledge and always making it absolutely clear when he's publishing speculation rather than facts.
pk500 wrote:Jalopnik has posted a video of the Bianchi crash shot from the stands by a spectator. It offers a clear view of the ferocity of the impact and accident.

I'm thankful Jules Bianchi is still alive. But after watching that video, it's almost a miracle he wasn't beheaded in the wreck, similar to Francois Cevert's death in 1973 at Watkins Glen.

#ForzaJules
Not to mention the peak G-loadings. Jules came to a stop very, very quickly and the car didn't steadily dissipate energy - it was simply torn apart.

I'm speculating here, which I know is dangerous ground, but from the video, it looks an altogether different accident to Sutil's. The speed Bianchi arrived at suggests he over-corrected some snap oversteer and ended up pointing directly at the tractor, rather than spinning as Sutil did. That'd go some way to explaining why he was still carrying such enormous speed and why he went in head-on.

I cannot imagine how he was not beheaded, any more than I can imagine how he must have felt in the instant immediately prior. One hopes his efforts were focused solely on regaining control.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by F308GTB »

GB_Simo wrote:Not to mention the peak G-loadings. Jules came to a stop very, very quickly and the car didn't steadily dissipate energy - it was simply torn apart.

I'm speculating here, which I know is dangerous ground, but from the video, it looks an altogether different accident to Sutil's. The speed Bianchi arrived at suggests he over-corrected some snap oversteer and ended up pointing directly at the tractor, rather than spinning as Sutil did. That'd go some way to explaining why he was still carrying such enormous speed and why he went in head-on.

I cannot imagine how he was not beheaded, any more than I can imagine how he must have felt in the instant immediately prior. One hopes his efforts were focused solely on regaining control.
Looking at the Jalopnik video from a forensic perspective, a couple of comments:

1) The video angle is inconclusive as to how Jules may or may not have hit the tractor. It's hard to tell if (hopefully) he got lucky and the impact with the underside of the tractor body was just to the port side of the cockpit as opposed to his helmet hitting the tractor.
2) I would use caution against looking at damage photos/videos during impact, seeing hardware fly off, and make assumptions on how bad the impact with the tractor was. Without knowing the design of the car, it is impossible to ascertain if it took a little or a lot of energy to fracture some of the components. Likewise, depending on the stiffness of the rear, some of the hardware aft of the cockpit could have been ripped from the chasis due to connections further down failing. Good post-impact photos could be quite enlightening from a reconstruction perspective.
3) If his head didn't hit the tractor but instead was just mostly car structure on tractor, ironically it was hitting the tractor that actually would have burned some energy off. Not much, but still some amount was dissipated in the impact (the tractor was lifted up quite a bit, energy dissipated in terms of parts fracturing and flying off). Even after the impact he was carrying a lot of speed, so while the tire wall (or whatever they are using) provides quite a bit of attenuation, he may have been carrying so much speed that he bottomed out the restraint wall. When that happens, the stiffness changes to a much higher value and loads increase significantly. So I would have to wonder if it was impact with the wall, which would have happened with or without the tractor present, that was the peak event. Regardless, Marussia should have more than adequate telemetry to reconstruct the accident. They should see a high-g, short duration spike associated with the tractor impact, a longer, lower g event with the attenuation system in the wall followed by a shorter, high g event if the wall bottomed out.
4) If Marussia does indeed have the telemetry, they can run the acceleration data through models and use something like the Brinkley index to see how bad the loading was. It's not peak g-level that's important, but a combination of peak-g and time. You can withstand very high g-levels if that pulse is extremely short. Spinning could have also made the impact worse. It's hard to say unless you know the numbers involved.
5) Lack of information regarding neck/spine injuries I would expect is a good thing and may suggest injuries could potentially have occurred due to wall, rather than tractor, impact.

I find it incredibly heartening that more than 24 hours later we aren't hearing about the death of a young man. Hopefully it all turns out to be yet another bad crash in F1 where the safety features of the car and track saved him, and a learning experience about having equipment on track because of what could have been. Really hoping for the best.
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Re: OT: Racing 2014 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

I don't know, James: Bianchi's impact lifted a crane/tractor off the ground. That's some serious G's to this untrained eye. But you know more far more about loading and engineering than me, so I read your analysis with detail. Thanks for sharing that perspective.
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