Tonight... Spies vs. Mercs...BLACKLIST!

[Teal]

Internet is down for me. Looks like a no go for me...

[Spooky]

Watched 'The Wild & Wonderful Whites of West Virginia' and then fell asleep. Planning on playing tonight though.

[Zeppo]

I forget Pete is out of town this week. That's part of the issue. I should be able to stay up tonight to get some games in.

Spooky can we set a time at 10pm EDT for you and me? Maybe we can just toodle around some of the maps and learn some spy routes until we get another couple of guys. Or we can try a random classic mode match as a pair.

[Spooky]

I forget Pete is out of town this week. That's part of the issue. I should be able to stay up tonight to get some games in.

Spooky can we set a time at 10pm EDT for you and me? Maybe we can just toodle around some of the maps and learn some spy routes until we get another couple of guys. Or we can try a random classic mode match as a pair.

Yes please!

[Teal]

Dammit-all-to-hell, it looks like my internet will be down for another week. GRRR. Y'all enjoy...dammit...

[Spooky]

Dammit-all-to-hell, it looks like my internet will be down for another week. GRRR. Y'all enjoy...dammit...

Holy crap?!?! A week? Is there construction in your hood?

[Teal]

Dammit-all-to-hell, it looks like my internet will be down for another week. GRRR. Y'all enjoy...dammit...

Holy crap?!?! A week? Is there construction in your hood?

That's what they say. There IS a ton of construction going on around us, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. In all, it's okay, because we're going camping this weekend for Labor Day, and my wife's dad is in bad shape (cancer), so we'll be busy for the week. Ah well.

[Spooky]

Hey Zepp - sorry I didn't get to your invite sooner. I happened to join up with 3 other randoms and we made such a kick a$$ team that we partied up and played a few rounds together. Your invite came just as we started the first half of my last round but it went the full time.

[Pete1210]

I forget Pete is out of town this week.

I'm back

Should be on later tonight if anyone is interested.

[Zeppo]

I'll look for you if I end up getting online tonight.

[Spooky]

I'll be on.

Man - played BL mode yesterday against a 4-some of level 56'rs that all had the same Clan Tag. They completely owned but it was a thing of beauty in a way. You could totally tell they probably all play together a ton and each know their role and have complimentary load outs. Seems like they are playing the game the way it is meant to be played, if just in BL mode. Maybe, just maybe when we all get a couple more weeks of this under our belt we'd have a enough experience to be a fairly decent 4 man team to party up and take on rooms of 4 other randoms.

[Teal]

Alright...I'm finally back on the air! I'm jonesing for some spies/mercs action...how about tonight? (Thursday)

[Zeppo]

I won't be playing again until next Tuesday most likely. There's a slim chance I get on Saturday night but otherwise, there are sports I'll be watching instead of playing games including the NFL game tonight.

Last night sucked ass. After Spook and Pete left, Truth and I paired up for a random Classic match. Well, we got matched with two level 55+. We plays two games with them and to say they weren't competitive would be a major understatement. By their Spy round of the 2nd game, those guys were deliberately halting their hacks just so they could kill us more and rack up the ranking points. .

Not fun to say the least.

I really suck at this game on both ends. I realize I wasn't amazing at SC:DA out of the gate, and I didn't play against randoms much if at all, but I feel like this game just doesn't make sense to me and I don't know why. I'm just awful. In Blacklist mode, I have no handle whatsoever on the gadgets, and with so many options I'm just lost all the time. In Classic mode, as a Spy I have a really hard time with the darkness and as a Merc I can't shoot straight.

It would be more fun for me to play in groups of DSPers because seeing guys level 50+ in random games is really disheartening. Clearly, they know the ins and outs of the maps and have a handle on the gadgets the way myself, a level 11, simply is nowhere close to having.

[Teal]

Well, I'm all for having all-DSP matches, and that couple of doofs you played against aren't worth a damn; anyone who does that is an idiot of the first order. That said, I've had some great random matches, too. But I'd always prefer to play with DSP'ers. One thing I will not allow is for a game this great to suffer from the DSP doldrums so early in its cycle. So three people (at least) step up here and let's play, dammit!

[Spooky]

The game is frustrating, rewarding, maddening, fun, stressful, intense and addicting. All things every single SC MP has been for me. I am level 30 and I am still struggling at times. And yes, level 55+'s have seemed to mastered the game but I honestly believe most of those feel earned to me. There is no real cheap way to be good at this game. The guys that stall hacks to get kills suck, but that's just unavoidable.

It's the nature of the game for two people who have a ton of time to spend on the game to make a powerhouse team. I mean, Zepp, imagine if you and I spend 3-4 hours a day playing this as a team and learning the maps and gadgets inside and out. We'd be those same guys that are frustrating us now (minus the bullsh*t stalling). But just like every single MP game since the start of Xbox LIVE - a room full of guys you know and have fairly equal skill will always be the most fun.

I know this is all kind of a "no sh*t Sherlock..." statement, but I guess I'm just bummed to see this game getting any negative feelings since I love it so much.

I will be watching the football game tonight but will try to jump on for a few matches at some point.

[Pete1210]

After being away a week it was tough coming back and going team DSP versus team random that somehow dedicated so much time to this game to reach level 56 already. I haven't had time to play enough to even learn the maps yet! I still had some fun getting a few kills and hack points while we got dominated.

Next time if we have 4 guys, we'd be better off playing our own classic game. Hopefully sometimes we'll get enough guys to run some private Blacklist mode too.

Anyone else think its a little too easy for Spies to kill Mercs on Blacklist mode?

Tonight I'm planning on watching NFL, but I'll be up for more Splinter Cell on Friday or Saturday.

[Teal]

The game is frustrating, rewarding, maddening, fun, stressful, intense and addicting. All things every single SC MP has been for me. I am level 30 and I am still struggling at times. And yes, level 55+'s have seemed to mastered the game but I honestly believe most of those feel earned to me. There is no real cheap way to be good at this game. The guys that stall hacks to get kills suck, but that's just unavoidable.

It's the nature of the game for two people who have a ton of time to spend on the game to make a powerhouse team. I mean, Zepp, imagine if you and I spend 3-4 hours a day playing this as a team and learning the maps and gadgets inside and out. We'd be those same guys that are frustrating us now (minus the bullsh*t stalling). But just like every single MP game since the start of Xbox LIVE - a room full of guys you know and have fairly equal skill will always be the most fun.

I know this is all kind of a "no sh*t Sherlock..." statement, but I guess I'm just bummed to see this game getting any negative feelings since I love it so much.

I will be watching the football game tonight but will try to jump on for a few matches at some point.

That's the thing. I'll stay in matches where I am legitimately getting my ass handed to me, and I'll pay attention to what they're doing. Mostly, all they're doing is playing the game alot. I hate that I lost a week there, and I've definitely felt it today while trying to play some random matches. BUT, I've held my own a good bit, too, after a game or two. I adore this game; I won't play long with idiots like what Zep mentioned, but I'll concede defeat to a masterful performance...frustrating as it might get from time to time. It's still an awesome time.

I used my week absent Live trucking around the co-op matches solo, and had a blast doing that, although the "waves" co-op maps are gonna get ridiculous by wave 20 without a partner, so...if nothing else, I'd be up for some co-op, even, if that's what it comes to this evening. I just want to PLAY.

[Zeppo]

I don't know. In our Blacklist game last night, only one of those guys was higher than, say 25 or 30. A couple of them were like level 12 or 13. It wasn't some super team of blood brothers. In fact, there were only two guys in the room when we got there, so at most two of them knew each other.

When Truth and I stayed on for Classic mode, that's when I saw two 50+ guys together, and they clearly knew each other.

Yes, I think Spies kill Mercs very easily in both modes, honestly, not just in Blacklsit mode, but I think that's just a symptom of how different the game is now than the previous iterations we were used to. There also aren't limits on respawns, unlike previous versions, so killing the enemy isn't nearly as big a deal in the fullness of the game, whereas it has clearly become more of the major tactical concentration of the game as far as "how to successfully hack the target."

I do think my old thing about learning the proper "Spy paths" around the level is still very relevant, and I certainly am far from comfortable getting from target to target in a sneaky, spy way and end up running like an idiot through the halls and stairways way too often. Completely gone from this version is the method of infuriating and confusing the Mercs by making them chase you from one target to the next and back. Now it's more about killing them to get them out of the way so you have time, because once you start a hack, they know where you are and you can't confuse them anymore.

Playing more will help me get better, I've no doubt, but for whatever reason I'm having a devil of a time adjusting to the new game, changed as it is so fundamentally from DA. I wish I could make a breakthrough.

[Teal]

I don't know. In our Blacklist game last night, only one of those guys was higher than, say 25 or 30. A couple of them were like level 12 or 13. It wasn't some super team of blood brothers. In fact, there were only two guys in the room when we got there, so at most two of them knew each other.

When Truth and I stayed on for Classic mode, that's when I saw two 50+ guys together, and they clearly knew each other.

Yes, I think Spies kill Mercs very easily in both modes, honestly, not just in Blacklsit mode, but I think that's just a symptom of how different the game is now than the previous iterations we were used to. There also aren't limits on respawns, unlike previous versions, so killing the enemy isn't nearly as big a deal in the fullness of the game, whereas it has clearly become more of the major tactical concentration of the game as far as "how to successfully hack the target."

I do think my old thing about learning the proper "Spy paths" around the level is still very relevant, and I certainly am far from comfortable getting from target to target in a sneaky, spy way and end up running like an idiot through the halls and stairways way too often. Completely gone from this version is the method of infuriating and confusing the Mercs by making them chase you from one target to the next and back. Now it's more about killing them to get them out of the way so you have time, because once you start a hack, they know where you are and you can't confuse them anymore.

Playing more will help me get better, I've no doubt, but for whatever reason I'm having a devil of a time adjusting to the new game, changed as it is so fundamentally from DA. I wish I could make a breakthrough.

Remember, though, that Pandora Tomorrow had you hacking the terminals IN ORDER. The mercs knew exactly where you were going to be. And we can certainly fire up some PT-type gameplay in Blacklist...so we can all see how much better things are! lol At the same time, I think we CAN do DA-type settings in Blacklist, where you can hack multiple terminals, and the percentage stays even if you are killed or leave the terminal. We can try that, if any of you like, to see if it's still as much fun as we think it was.

EDIT: It doesn't look like you can hack more than one at a time, but we CAN set it where the hack progress doesn't reset. That's basically DA, isn't it? So we could start one, make 'em come running, while another was at a different station to start another one. For that, I think the hack speed needs to be set to slow, though, so that the spies don't have such an advantage.

EDIT 2: These settings are only in classic mode. In blacklist, we can slow the hack speed.

EDIT: You cannot leave the zone once a hack has initiated. BUT if you die, the hack will not be reset.

[Spooky]

Yes, it is easier to kill as a spy in this game than in previous versions. Yes, it has become more of a focus and perhaps a necessary strategy to compete (in both Classic and BL modes). For some reason, it doesn't really bother me. I think it's because the opposite used to bother me in the other games. I used to get killed constantly as a spy because I'd get stuck in some crappy spot and have no self defense abilities. Of course it was possible to get a kill as a spy, but very difficult for me.

Personally, I think the stealth vs. attack balance for spies in this new game is great. You must use stealth, especially against skilled mercs to at least get to the hacks. And of course you have to be as stealthy as possible to even kill a good merc. Then, once your team has initiated a hack you go into more of an offensive mode. This is much more exaggerated in BL mode than in Classic, but it's a needed strategy in both.

The new map design forces spies to be more aggressive once a hack is started. You can't just camp and keep your fingers crossed. There are no true hiding spots so you must move and strike if you have the chance. And the non-hacking teammate has serious work to do as well. I think this game forces people to communicate and work together maybe even more than in previous versions. Yes, it's a bit different but it doesn't make the game any less fun for me.

One good point Zeppo mentioned is the effect of unlimited respawns. I think that may be the only design choice that is questionable and causes the game to play much faster and looser.

[Teal]

I just think this is a natural and good progression in the series, as well as a throwback (Classic) for those of us who love the old. But I love the new, as well, given a team that works together, communicates, and a game in which everyone plays it as designed, rather than finding exploits and red-lining them. That happens with every game I've ever played, there are always some dumbass punks who break a game and ruin it for the rest of us. The best online games ever still have those fucktards. They are what they are, and they're as easy to dodge as pressing start and quitting out that session.

And I don't think it's really good math to say "higher rank=better player". It just means they've stayed in their mom's basement longer than everyone else. I've kicked some 50+ level players' asses, and gotten mine handed to me by players half my level. I simply can't get enough of Blacklist, and momentary frustration is momentary. For me, unhealthy frustration levels happened when I played that Shadowrun stuff...

[Teal]

I was having the game of my life last night as a spy...wow. I would hack terminals, protect the other hackers, got like 8 protect kills in a row, would restart interrupted hacks...just all over the place. It was a great feeling.


Then some idiot rage quit and we all got dumped back into the lobby...so none of it translated into ranking level. GRR.

On another note, I also ran into some of the morons that Zep had mentioned a few days back; they would intentionally interrupt hacks in order to get kill counts, which is absolutely NOT what the damned game is about. I was not playing against them, though...I was on their team, so I heard all their nonsense. "No, dude, don't hack-don't hack! I'm trying to get my kills up!" I quit out of that one, because that kind of stupidity disgusts me.

But it was a blip on an otherwise glorious radar last night. Just plain fun.

[Zeppo]

So, I ask you guys who are having success in the game, what gadgets do you like? What combinations of gadgets do you use? What weaknesses or exploitable tendencies do you look for in you opponents?

I've played a bit in random games, and I am always the worst guy on the team, both as a Merc and as a Spy. I'm not exaggerating, either. Unless someone joins with seconds to go and gets no points, I always end every round with the lowest score on either side. I'm just awful.

One thing that I'm not adjusting to very well is the immensely faster pace of this game. Even in the original Pandora Tomorrow version, the pace on both sides was much slower and there was a lot more of trying to outguess and anticipate the other team. This game feels to me like a death arena, where everyone runs full speed into a melee zone of death. Especially as a spy, I find myself feeling like I need to hurry, rush, move fast, and run in order to get where I need to be to support my team, either to protect a hacker or to try to restart a hack. Anytime I try to sneak and be invisible and quiet or try to get an idea of where the Mercs are, I am just worthless.

I have noticed as a Merc that the ghille (sp?) suit drives me nuts. Spies with that gadget just dominate me. As a Merc, I really like the motion detector but I'm not sure it's really helping me that much. What do you guys use? What gadgets as a spy or as a Merc? Or do you not even really use the gadgets, and just rely on quickness and positioning?

[Teal]

So, I ask you guys who are having success in the game, what gadgets do you like? What combinations of gadgets do you use? What weaknesses or exploitable tendencies do you look for in you opponents?

I've played a bit in random games, and I am always the worst guy on the team, both as a Merc and as a Spy. I'm not exaggerating, either. Unless someone joins with seconds to go and gets no points, I always end every round with the lowest score on either side. I'm just awful.

One thing that I'm not adjusting to very well is the immensely faster pace of this game. Even in the original Pandora Tomorrow version, the pace on both sides was much slower and there was a lot more of trying to outguess and anticipate the other team. This game feels to me like a death arena, where everyone runs full speed into a melee zone of death. Especially as a spy, I find myself feeling like I need to hurry, rush, move fast, and run in order to get where I need to be to support my team, either to protect a hacker or to try to restart a hack. Anytime I try to sneak and be invisible and quiet or try to get an idea of where the Mercs are, I am just worthless.

I have noticed as a Merc that the ghille (sp?) suit drives me nuts. Spies with that gadget just dominate me. As a Merc, I really like the motion detector but I'm not sure it's really helping me that much. What do you guys use? What gadgets as a spy or as a Merc? Or do you not even really use the gadgets, and just rely on quickness and positioning?

My favorite custom spy at the moment is outfitted with the overcharge suit, emp grenades, the speed boots, extra gadget pants (for which I also employ the trophy thing that knocks out gadgets in range-good for hiding when you are the hacker. Place that device between yourself and any open area, and it'll blow up UAV's and grenades).

I'm not quite as good as a Merc, but I've seen firsthand what a couple of mercs outfitted with the disruptor can do. If two or more mercs have it, and communicate, they can pretty much keep the spies completely blind except for line-of-sight. I use proximity mines, but have stopped placing them near the terminals, because they can be blown up by the overcharge or emp grenades very easily. Rather, I place them in doorways, stick them to walls around corners, under drop-in locations, and that sort of thing. I have the visor that detects any movement that isn't sneaky, and puts a huge triangle over where they are.

You can see the ghille suit guys if you pay attention, but the disruptor will knock that ability out, too.

This IS a different game, in Blacklist, than what we've grown accustomed to, but I still do alot of hiding and sneaking. Now, though, the strategy of protecting the hacker is increased. I'm still not a fan of the spies having lethal range weapons (I use the shock bolts with the crossbow only), but if you're a merc and armored up well, the spy guns do little more than let you know where you're being shot from.

I've gotten better as a spy the more I've embraced what Blacklist is and let go of what it isn't. It's still very strategic, and classic is still quite sneaky to me, but Blacklist mode is just...evolved. I've always fairly well sucked as a Merc, and likely always will...lol.

[Zeppo]

I've gotten better as a spy the more I've embraced what Blacklist is and let go of what it isn't.

Right. I'm ready to embrace. But my problem seems to be that I can't figure out "what Blacklist is," and thus I continue to exclusively fail no matter what I try. If I'd had even a modicum of success at any stage, I'd feel better about saying I could give up what SC MP used to be and embrace the new game, but I'm just totally lost at this point, and it's frustrating.

You mentioned some useful things, some of which I admit to being completely ignorant of. "That trophy thing?" I don't know what it is, but it seems like a useful tool. I wasn't aware Mercs had any visor, much less one that would graphically highlight out-of-sight spies who are making noise. Also I didn't know EMP grenades would disable/destroy proximity mines.

I've tried experimenting a little bit, but my recent strategy has been using the default, top choice on both sides in an attempt to get a handle on those types, and inevitably I find little opportunity as a spy to use any gadgets except for the Intel suit before I die.

Maybe some night I will get a chance to play in a friendly group of DSPers. Tuesday is a good night for me. Communication on my team that consists of more than complaining about how much I suck, or that I'm looking right at a spy I can't seem to see, would be a nice change for me.