Madden 2005 or ESPN 2005?

[Badgun]

Guys, this isn't a "which one will you buy" question as much as it's about which one has made the most improvements since last year.

It's a no brainer for me, I always buy them both and this year won't be any different. For 3 years running, I've played extensive franchises in both games. Last year I felt ESPN's game on the field was much more fun than Madden, but I enjoyed Madden's franchise mode and college draft class import feature (when it was fixed) moreso than ESPN.

I've already pre-ordered both games as well as NCAA 2005, but which game do you guys think has made the larger improvements based on previews and early builds that you might have seen?

It seems that ESPN has finally fixed the unstoppable running back thing and they've added a lot of off the field stuff to improve the franchise mode. Madden, on the other hand, appears to be standing pat with their usual "let's add one new feature and slap 2005 on it" philosophy.

Most of the previews that I have read, even the "5 coolest things" feature over at IGN seem to be favoring ESPN as the game that wowed them the most at E3 and since.

So is it my imagination or is ESPN getting most all of the positive press while Madden...well is just Madden? Regardless of how much ESPN adds or how cheap it gets, we all know that Madden will sell its million copies and ESPN will toil around the 200,000 copy mark.

Anyway, with NCAA less than a month away now, I wanted to see what the general opinion was as to which one has taken the most strides this year.

[Brando70]

I would say ESPN seems like the more exciting of the two. It just seems like they are trying harder to replicate the speed, chaos, and strategy that exist on the football field. Last year, even though I eventually wound up sticking with ESPN exclusively, I thought the two games were about even in terms of pros and cons. Unless EA has made some significant gameplay changes no one knows about, ESPN clearly seems to be progressing while Madden seems to be just making minor adjustments. In fact, for the the first time probably since the PSX days, it seems like NCAA is offering more new features than Madden.

I will probably buy all 3, especially if Madden is also reduced to 39.99. I do like their franchise mode and importing draft classes from NCAA. But ESPN looks to be my game of choice this year.

[Murph]

I'm officially proclaiming myself a lemming and a creature of convienence.

Unless ESPN is light years better than Madden, I'll probably just go with Madden, since it's a natural progression from NCAA. Same style, same controller set-up, able to import NCAA players, etc.

To be honest though, I'm not even in any great hurry to pick up an NFL game, as I see myself putting in a lot of dynasty time with NCAA.

The mileage of others will certainly vary.

[Sudz]

Guys, this isn't a "which one will you buy" question as much as it's about which one has made the most improvements since last year.

i don't think we'll know until they are released.

[Zeppo]

Well, last year was the first time since the Dreamcast days that I was able to stomach Sega football for a whole year. XBL baby! And though I loved NCAA, Madden on PS2 I just didn't give much of a shot.

I can only hope that EA can take some of the brilliant persentation ideas and concepts from MVP Baseball, which I think are very much pushing the envelope, and apply them to Madden. It just amazes me how poor the presentation in Madden consistently is; the crowd is just deplorable, for one.

Anyway, gameplay adjustments, I will wait and see.
Also with ESPN I will wait and see. Lots and lots of things besides the 'Home Run' running game bothered me about ESPN. Shall we start with receivers' routes? What is up with double moves in ESPN? Have you ever watched a receiver in a replay on a double move route like a stop and go? Also, the way running backs turn when catching a pass in the flat- that bizarre, momentum be damned, transport-me-back a yard or two catch-and-turn animation was a source of MAJOR frustration for me.

Still, I had tons of fun palying ESPN against people, despite these mind-twisting issues. But this year with Madden on XBL, I just don't know!

I will wait and see as to game-play adjustments, but I will be comparing Madden more to 2 years ago's version than last year.

The new R stick stuff in ESPN looks like it could be really good. Then again, it could go too far- they may have decreased the tackle-breaking (the new 2-styles of tackle system could really help, but for me the 'home runs' were always more about very poor pursuit angles by the safeties than anything else), but the new R stick jukes and moves may take up that slack if they are too powerul.
It sure does seem like ESPN has more adjustments to the gameplay, but I'm not sure how successful or even useful they all may be. It's sort of like the R-stick moves in WE7; they are neat and all, but I just never use them in a game, and I don't feel like I'm really missing out. Same could be true with both the highly-hyped 2-style tackle dealie, and the hughly-hyped R-stick running moves. We'll see.

OK enough with the rambling. I am likley to get both, and frankly roster updates (their frequency and online functionality) and the possibility of so-called 'Live Rosters' for online leagues will have the most influence on which I play more. That live-roster thing is the most exciting new thing for me!

[dbdynsty25]

I can pretty much bet the house that ESPN will sell more than 200,000 copies if they release at 19.99. People will just take a flyer on a game that is that cheap when it's released, especially with the positive praise that last years version received.

[TrojanMan]

I'm encouraged by the fact that ESPN will be developed for the XBox (my console of choice) and ported to the PS2, versus the other way around. I'm not sure 'Maximum Tackling' is the answer to the Nebraska vs. Alcorn State type rushing totals; but, I'm hopeful that the guys at VC have heard the rumblings about that and addressed it. Throw in the price tag, the live roster thing and the fact that I'll be getting NCAA, too, and I don't see a reason to buy Madden.

[wco81]

Already preordered all 3 again. Which ones I play the most will depend on online activity. Last year, I was getting up a couple of hours before going to work to get in a game of NCAA online.

I never look at the singleplayer franchise/dynasty options so I wouldn't know about most of those features.

If I had to rank the gameplay/AI features of all 3 games, off the top of my head it would be something like:

1. Defensive Playmaker -- not sure how practical it will be to make all these presnap adjustments but should be interesting online.

2. Living Rosters/Online Leagues -- not as interested in big trades or free agents. Really there aren't that many trades in the NFL. But one thing which might be fun is to have a league with teams composed entirely from a fantasy draft.

3. Running game tweaks in all 3 games -- there are always differences in feel and balance, from year to year (and I really don't think NCAA gameplay is as similar to Madden as people would claim). Obviously, ESPN is promising better balance for the broken tackles. But they're also talking about momentum or at least making ballcarriers slow down on cuts, which might also reduce the breakaway runs. Also some talk of ESPN runners being able to turn in all directions more smoothly, rather than at 45-degree angles.

For Madden, we'll see if they reduce the pinball physics. There's also promise of better pursuit AI but Madden really has not had a good outside running game in a long time so you wonder what that's about.

For NCAA, will the suction blocking be the same? Will pancakes be out of control if you have an A team going up against a C team?

4. Passing Game/Pass Defense -- NCAA could use more varied pass defenses as well as better pressure on the QB, particularly the mobile ones. Madden also needs more pressure and there is the promise of improved DB AI (we get this every year) but they are saying better CBs will not be beat by average WRs so we'll see. There is also something about an "assist" so that when you take control of a player in space, it'll be easier to control him. ESPN I haven't heard as much but sometimes the pass rush was too strong so the new QB evade moves may help balance that aspect of the game.

5. Home Field Advantage and Matchup Stick -- Not too crazy about the concept of these but will have to deal with them unless there's a way to disable them online. Will have to see how much control of outcome they take away with what sounds like arbitrary factors. Not denying that college players get rattled at hostile stadia but not sure how things will be done.


Maximum Tackle for ESPN and Hit Stick for Madden will have to actually be evaluated. Both seem to offer a risk/reward system but of course, there could be balance problems.

[anchester]

I find it a bit humorous that most people (esp over at OS) are just raving at ESPN. There are saying that game is totally improved and programmed now for XBOX first.

I take a look at in game videos (not meaningless doctored still closeups) and the game looks IDENTICAL to 2k4. Go to IGN and look at the 5 latest videos.

I bet we have the same problems like can't have separate camera angles online, and the always present lack of transitional animations and smoothness. I think ESPN is really marketing better this year. The whole this game is now programmed for the XBOX is complete bull. If it was changed from prior year, why do graphics look identical.

Now i know madden changes very little each year, but looking at the videos of madden this year, they show a lot more graphical updates than espn (better lighting, better field textures, crisper uniforms).

Sure ESPN has tons of new cut scenes, but this is fluff. Just give me on the field game play improvements. I don't want to bash ESPN b/c it does some things very well, but i get irritated each year we hear the same stuff, like ESPN is going to be the holy grail of football. I think the changes made from 2k3 to 2k4 are huge in comparison to 2k4 to 2k5. Perhaps this is one reason its only $20. Basically a roster update. Madden and any sports game that doesn't change much should really be just 20-30 dollars

[JohnDoe]

Anyone think Madden will lower the price to say ... 39.99 or add in a discount if you purchase NCAA? I'm getting all 3 anyway, but a price cut on Madden would be welcome.

[dbdynsty25]

The player models are a huge improvement in ESPN this year, so by saying that there is little to no graphical improvements in ESPN is a crock of sh*t. They look less like zombies and more like real football players. Which is a lot more than you can say for the bobbleheads that grace the field of EA's offering.

[XXXIV]

The player models are a huge improvement in ESPN this year, so by saying that there is little to no graphical improvements in ESPN is a crock of sh*t.

Its his first post.
He wanted to WOW us with his insight.

Im gettng all 3. I cant wait to get my head handed to me in a game of NCAA.

[Noledog]

Already have espn nfl preordered.

Going to pick up NCAA when it comes out, just to tide me over until ESPN comes out.

Which one I play more....going to depend on which game trojanman wants to lose to that night

[GTHobbes]

... but looking at the videos of madden this year, they show a lot more graphical updates than espn....

... Perhaps this is one reason [ESPN is] only $20. Basically a roster update.

Pretty bold statements for a first post. I strongly disagree on both points, but that's just my opinion.

[anchester]

the player models are big improvements?....i have seen this in still shots but i don't see how you can say that on field action looks much different. I wouldn't be so negative on ESPN, its more of the counterpoint to the typical raves i hear each year from this game.

This year is surely a typical tweaking year and not a big change like last year (new graphics, new presentation, new playcalling screens, new menus, new modes)

typically there is only a big change with every new system or when a game is getting horrible reviews and its needs to scrap the engine (ala NBA Live 2003 and Triple Play)

actually i use to post under cman321 but i can't recover my password b/c its sent to my old email address

[wco81]

Actually, some of the screens on ESPN look nice, showing veins in arms, folds in jerseys. However, those are probably from cut scenes rather than the gameplay camera angles. Of course, Madden only publishes close-up screens too.

The next big jump in graphics will come with HDTV support (meaning now compromises in frame rate or widescreen) and that won't really happen until the next generation.

The only thing I'm worried about is whether games can be played online in HDTV mode. Most online games have disclaimer about degradations of performance online. Still, PC gamers play online at resolutions comparable to 720p.

[bdoughty]

Perhaps this is one reason its only $20. Basically a roster update.

ESPN Presentation
Chris Berman and new sideline reporter Suzy Kolber headline an updated ESPN presentation complete with an expanded half-time & post-game show, player of the game award, skycam and pass/run analysis.


V.I.P. System™
After your game, save your friend’s profile to compete when he is not available! Learn his tendencies, moves, & logic for more heated battles or play against the profile of coaches around the league to better your skills.


ESPN 25th Anniversary Mode
Play those classic NFL situations over the past 25 years including "the immaculate reception," "the catch" and more. Here is your chance to rewrite history!


Always Online
Real-time stats, buddy lists, and friend connection updates all add to our seamless online play for the ultimate online community experience.


Maximum Tackle™
Experience control like never before as defenders decide whether to go for the basic wrap-up tackle or debilitating big hit. Ball carriers have the ability to break out of tackles for extra yardage at a increased chance of fumbling.


New in The Crib™
Now you can truly customize your pad with the new points system, allowing you to shop for unique items to style your place. Increase your items by competing against celebs
all you need to do is answer the call!


Innovative Franchise Play
Manage the week-to-week preparation of your team including workout schedules, film breakdowns and more as well as watch and react to simulated games. Also new is SportsCenter with Chris Berman anchoring and Mel Kiper and Trey Wingo bringing you the latest happenings around the league.


Breakthrough Moves
Dazzling animations such as back of the end zone catches, quarterback evasions, all-new runs, and slips, falls and trips due to real weather changes.


The Emotion of the NFL
Frantic turnover reactions, intense first down signals, quick timeout calls on the ground and the ability to manage your own outrageous touchdown celebrations!


Updated First Person Football™
Our exclusive first person mode steps it up with new camera switching, improved audio, passing control options, and more!


Your Game, Your Music
Customize the sounds of the game by using your own ripped music to add some true stadium atmosphere.




From IGN who has a copy of the game. Now I know we have access to videos but since they have the actual game, they might be better suited to judge the differences between 2K4 and 2K5, at last until we can get our hands on the game.

Graphics: Holy Moses, this game looks stunning. Using Normal Mapping and a new technique of Triple Pass Rendering, you'll see muscles flex, the change of color in a uniform from dusk to night, the intensity on a player's face, and the crispest, cleanest, and prettiest sports game since, err, ever perhaps. The screens and movies do not lie. This is hot, hot, hot!

ESPN Presentation: Last year VC became determined to improve the somewhat lackluster presentation previously found in its titles. They've done so and more this year. Boomer's in the hot seat, Joe Namath's gal is on the field, and the weekly Sportscenter feature has tons of plays from a variety of games and loads of dialogue. Add to this over 200 new cut-scenes showing play and coach reactions and even fan's entering the stadium or looking distraught after a loss. Yeah, it's good stuff.

New Moves
Madden has always done a good job of adding some sort of new move or on-the-field feature each year. Sega has been a bit more conservative, keeping much of the controls and gameplay very much the same from year to year, with just minor tweaks. This year, however, ESPN NFL 2005 is adding two very nice additions to the arsenal, both of which work quite well.
The first is Maximum Tackle. This allows defenders to choose whether to go for a more standard arm-wrap tackle or to try and knock the flop off the ball carrier. The nice thing is that it uses the exact same button. The difference is, you hold down tackle for the standard arm tackle, while the quick hit requires just a tap of the tackle button. You risk a miss or having the player bounce off, but you can get some highlight reel hits this way, knock the ball loose, and even knock a player out of the game.

IGN's resident sports guru suggested that if you had quick enough fingers, you could wrap up the ballcarrier with a normal tackle, then switch to the nearest defender for a quick hit while they are defenseless. Lemme tell you right now -- that s*** works! You read that right, not only does it work, it's damn effective and a load of fun, just popping guys. It is not easy though, as you need to get lucky enough to have a tackle animation that holds the runner up for a moment and then the ability to get a defender over to the proper spot quickly. When it works, it's a beautiful thing. When it doesn't, it looks a little clumsy.

The other new move you'll be loving is one that's easy to neglect. The Quarterback Evade move is done by tapping the Right Thumbstick in any direction. The QB will try to duck and slide off a tackle, even if no one is around him. If you've got Michael Vick, he'll be more likely to slip through a lineman's grasp, whereas Kurt Warner will tend to crumple. I say that it's easy to neglect, because usually when a linebacker is about to throw down, the instinct is to run out of the pocket and throw wildly on the run. But that isn't a good option for pocket passers, so now you have the option of trying to evade and then get off a quick throw.

It's taken me half an NFL season to train myself to use the QB Evade move, but now that I'm used to it, the Right Thumbstick has become my best bud. I just have to say, before moving on to #4, that ESPN NFL 2005 has some damn sweet animations this year, things that will almost fool you into believing you're watching a real football game. The QB Evade move is one, but it works in tandem with so many other nice animations that create a very fluid experience. Watching a running back stumble and plant his hand on someone elses back so he can stay upright, that's tight.

EA has the EA Sports Bio, but Sega's new VIP is a far more creative and far greater tool for showcasing users. Hopefully it makes it into more ESPN Videogames in the future. I'd bet on that, so my real hope is that somehow the VIPs from football can somehow be integrated into hockey and basketball.

Weekly Game Preparation
The best thing about ESPN NFL 2005 will appeal only to more hardcore fans, that's because it requires a good deal of micromanagement and some dedication to your franchise. Each week of a season, you'll have the opportunity to fully schedule ever aspect of your team's daily routines, from Monday through Friday. This isn't some general "okay, runningbacks focus on breaking tackles this week," but instead is an incredibly deep tool for preparing your players for battle.
Things begin on Monday, where you can call a team meeting to discuss last week's game. You'll have to choose how to approach the team as happy, hopeful, or even angry about the performance. Do you end with a team prayer, a motivational speech, or should you storm out? All of this affects team morale for the week, which can alter player performance. The rest of Monday and remainder of the week focuses on individual training and team scrimmages.

You have 60 points for each day and every activity costs points. By studying the detailed scouting reports, you can see which areas need the most attention for facing your opponent, but you can ignore all of that if you want. All of your players, even the second-stringers, will need to lift some weights and get some exercise, but you'll also want them to study film of your upcoming opponent to prepare them for Sunday.

Some activities include an entire group. You can have your wide receivers work on their hands, for instance. Most activities, however, can be done as a group or individually (which saves you points). You probably don't want your backup and third-string QB spending as much time studying film and taking snaps as your starter, so save a few points right there by limiting both your #2 and #3 QBs. Those small cuts will be necessary throughout the week with other second-stringers, but remember that if there's an injury to a starter, that unprepared player will be forced to sub, which could end up costing you the game.Even injured players get in the act, as you'll need to assign them different recovery options to try and help them recuperate faster.



Kick off the week properly with a team meeting or a press conference.




With several dozen players on your roster, that's a lot to set up each day for an entire week. Fortunately, you can save any task to carry over from week to week. But you'll need to make adjustments anyway, because different opponents will require different focus. It takes a while to get it all set up, especially the first time out. I actually haven't even scratched the surface on all of the areas you can put focus on or touched on how there are different methods for physical training and even leadership training. It's a deep, deep system that will certainly be explored in the coming months.

The end result of all this fiddling is that come Saturday you'll get to see the results for the week. Players can swing anywhere from six points up or down, which is significant. You also have to be careful not to fatigue your team or they will fade near the end of Sunday's game. A lot to think about, certainly, but the entire weekly prep is options. However, true football fanatics like myself will absolutely take this task in hand.

Though there are numerous quality additions to ESPN NFL 2005, Weekly Preparation is easily one of the most significant Franchise Mode additions to ever hit a sports game. How will it hold up over many seasons? That's why we play the games.

In fact, the game's animations and player models in general are really going to blow people away. Close-up, far away, replay, gameplay, doesn't matter, it will all leave fans scratching their helmets in awe. Muscles flex, the lighting really brings out the best of every angle, and creases and folds in the jersey are just unreal.

As much as I love NCAA Football 2005, each time I've played it over the past few days, it's been less satisfying than usual. That's because I also have a copy of ESPN NFL 2005 and that truly has been calling to me. From visuals to presentation to gameplay, it's shaping up to be one of the best sports games of all time. Yeah, it's really that good.

Yea that sure sounds like one heck of a roster update.

[SoMisss2000]

the player models are big improvements?....i have seen this in still shots but i don't see how you can say that on field action looks much different. I wouldn't be so negative on ESPN, its more of the counterpoint to the typical raves i hear each year from this game.

This year is surely a typical tweaking year and not a big change like last year (new graphics, new presentation, new playcalling screens, new menus, new modes)

typically there is only a big change with every new system or when a game is getting horrible reviews and its needs to scrap the engine (ala NBA Live 2003 and Triple Play)

actually i use to post under cman321 but i can't recover my password b/c its sent to my old email address

i hate to bring this term to such a mature board but you sound like a madden fanboy. Stevie Wonder can see the graphical improvements that ESPN has made. Is VC lying about developing this yeas game for the xbox?

[XXXIV]

Bdoughty, that was like using nukes on an ant hill.

[dbdynsty25]

Bdoughty, that was like using nukes on an ant hill.

LOL...that's an awesome line. I'm gonna borrow that sometime.

34's right though...might coulda held that back till after he made like, say 10 posts. LOL

[Boom]

First of all, I wonder why people are jumping all over somebody just because it's his first or seceond post. bold statements ore not, my first thought upon seeing the game in motion is that the gameplay looked exactly as last year. Granted it's hard to tell from a video or two, but that's the initial impression they gave me.

bd,
you can quote all of the IGN impressions etc that you want, but haven't we learned from MVP that it really doesn't mean a damn thing? They did the same thing for a full month prior to its release (MVP) with WOW'ing us with all of the great things this game had to offer. We know the general consensus of that game around here.

I'm very skeptical of both Madden and ESPN this year. Last year I got so fired up for ESPN and could not wait each week for Football Friday to come so I could see what other new great things VC had in store for us. While the game had the best presentation ever in a sports game IMO, the game on the field was seriously flawed... especially in the running game department and the DB AI.

All the features, presentation, and "fluff" in the world won't matter to me if the game still plays the same on the field.

I don't think the original question can truly be answered until we've actually played the games. I'm done falling for the preseason hype that both of these games come out swinging with.

[kevinpars]

If an NFL game starts taking significant time away from NCAA football, that will mean that in my mind it is the best football game ever made.

I feel like EA has really improved their sim engines over the last 5 years. I used to sim a season of Madden and wonder how the hell a crappy team managed to make the playoffs. Not anymore. If you look at the team attributes, you can make a pretty good guess at how things will finish if you sim a season. But the engine leaves room for upsets. I have found that with Madden i use it more as a GM type game. I setup my roster and sim the season and see how things work out.

Sega makes a more 'on the field' type game. The sim engine is not as refined as Madden's. I will have to see what it looks like this year. But I am currently more of a Sega than a Madden fan. A lot of people like Madden because it is a logical progression from NCAA. Personally, I like the fact that Sega/ESPN it is different enough from NCAA that I feel like I am playing a different game. With NCAA and Madden, the games are so similar that I find myself choosing to play the one I like better (NCAA) and not playing the other one.

[Brando70]

The problem with Madden will once again be Madden. Ten years of Boom, Pow, Zoink coming out of my speakers have taken their toll on my interest. On top of that, Madden has horrible audio and atmosphere. It's actually worse, I think, than it was a couple years ago. Granted, really awesome gameplay can overcome serious lack of presentation (as with ESPN Basebal), but I don't think Madden's gameplay is better than ESPN. Draw up a list of pros and cons and the length is about the same. Then it just becomes a matter of what you can live with.

The thing I like about ESPN and NCAA is that they get me excited to play. Madden is fun, but it isn't immersive. ESPN and NCAA, there's real tension on every play. If EA can fix NCAA's coaching logic, that could be the best game this year. But with ESPN baseball this year and the NFL game last year, I've seen Sega really make strides in the gameplay departments. That's why I'm hopeful NFL 2k5 will fix the things that need to be fixed.

[anchester]

hey boom, well said. Glad to know there are others out there that can give my initial post a fair assessment without resorting to the typical insults and sarcasm.

My only point is that it appears that Madden/NCAA have made more changes this year to on field action then ESPN. Both haven't made huge changes. Looking at the full game vid of the Miama vs Florida St game at IGN, i see slightly enhanced graphics, better presentation (overlays, fans, etc), no more mario run blocking, ball indicator on passes and punts, slower game speed (not sure if this is good, but will help the user control aspect which has been a little worse for the Madden/NCAA serious since it has momentum), more comments on User big plays (sacks, loss yards, interceptions), obviously raucous home field advantage, composure stuff.....all this from a quick gander at the game play vid.

Everybody else raves that ESPN is completely different from the ground up, blah blah, look at marketing fluff.....i look at the in game videos and i don't see it

[SoMisss2000]

Everybody else raves that ESPN is completely different from the ground up, blah blah, look at marketing fluff.....i look at the in game videos and i don't see it

Videos can be deceiving. EA marketed the hell out of MVP 2004 like they usually do with their games. From videos, MVP seemed like the greatest video baseball game EVER! We all know how that turned out. I think ESPN will play better than what the videos indicate.

How much did you expect the "look" to change from last year's iteration?

You'll get no argument from hardly anyone, the consensus is that NCAA Football is the best football game coming out any year.