OT: The words "under God" will remain in the Pledg

[Badgun]

Finally, common sense has prevailed!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... edge_x.htm

Funny thing, the athiest dad was hiding behind his daughter saying SHE was offended by the words when she believes in God and has no problem with the pledge. Not to mention part of the ruling stated that he had no grounds for a suit since he is not even a partial guardian to the little girl. You have to be a pretty piss poor dad if you can't even see your kid when you split up.

[bdoughty]

Unfortunately leaving "under god" will simply continue the lawsuits and bickering on the issue of church and state. For some people/groups the "under god" is a cop-out to not pledge allegiance to America. I would rather them take it out, and then have everyone say the pledge daily at school. Those who refuse to pledge allegiance (IN ENGLISH) can simply be deported back to whatever country they came from.

[DivotMaker]

Perfect example of people who have WAY TOO MUCH time on their hands...good grief. I shudder to even think what the next idiotic agenda is.....

[Boom]

I would rather them take it out, and then have everyone say the pledge daily at school.

I would rather them say "f*** you dumbass" and leave it as is.

[XXXIV]

The seperation of Church and state was created to protect freedom of religion from our government not to protect our wonderful government from religion........

Amazing how that s*** got turned around...............

[Badgun]

Perfect example of people who have WAY TOO MUCH time on their hands...good grief. I shudder to even think what the next idiotic agenda is.....

Removing any religious references from federal buildings? No wait, they already did that.

[pk500]

You have to be a pretty piss poor dad if you can't even see your kid when you split up.

PK, Parker - It's time for round 2

In theory, the Supreme Court was wrong. We are not one nation under God, as there are atheists who are just as American as those who go to church. Separation of church and state has become an absolute joke in this country, especially under Bush.

But I think we're one nation -- sh*t, we're one world -- under God, so that's all that really matters to me.

BigBertha summed it up perfectly: I could give three sh*ts what the Pledge says. This is just another example of how America has become the Earth's most shackled, PC nation that's supposedly free. Christ, when Jimmy Kimmel has to apologize for a joke about Detroit that has validity -- hell, the city has a history of torching itself after winning sports championships -- then our culture has serious issues.

Bad, you're right about one thing: That father is an absolute scumbag to not even want visitation rights for his kid. He should be castrated so he never can spawn again.

Out,
PK

[DivotMaker]

You have to be a pretty piss poor dad if you can't even see your kid when you split up.

Bad, you're right about one thing: That father is an absolute scumbag to not even want visitation rights for his kid. He should be castrated so he never can spawn again.

Out,
PK

PK,

As a father of a 16 year old and a 14 year old, I am appalled at this particular story. I also agree that people (male OR female) should be prevented from having offspring because they are not WORTHY of having such wonderful gifts.

What appalls me even more is that there would be more people in THIS country lining up to protest this numbnuts' castration than there would be those in support. It saddens the hell out of me that we are now under such a "spellcheck-type" of scrutiny that every word spoken is analyzed ad nauseum for the "underlying meaning". I gotta say I am worried about how some of my posts in forums are received because if the wrong person reads something and in their mind perceive statements quite differently, how the hell can we as a society communicate?

The other thing that simply blows my mind is how many people subscribe to the "glass-half-empty" way of thinking. It is staggering to see how many people you come across on a daily basis who have such negative attitudes. I have a very trying time trying to insulate myself from that way of thinking because I flat our REFUSE to have a negative attitude about anything. This task becomes REALLY difficult if you frequent forums like I do. I think the world needs a "checkup from the neckup" and realize that this is a pretty damn neat ride we are on living as human beings in this day and age. Sadly, I know that is a naive mindet, but there is still hope...

*Rant off*

[Zeppo]

Guys:

The Court's decision had nothing to do with the pledge of allegiance.

Their decision was based solely on whether or not that individual could sue the State or anyone on behalf of that child. They decided he could not, and that was it. They made no decision one way or another about the constitutionality of the pledge of allegiance.

Just though I should mention that, since from some of the posts it doesn't appear you guys were aware.

[mobiggins]

I dunno about under God, but the TX legislature saw it fit last year to pass a bill whereby students and teachers have to say the US pledge, the Texas pledge (isn't that contradictory, how can you pledge allegiance to the US and to Texas at the same time?) AND have a moment of silence EVERY DAY.

I'm not whining about this from the outside, either. I am a teacher, and I had to endure this whole business every single day. I can tell you there is nothing else that will cheapen the pledge or any other patriotic attitude than being forced to recite allegiance to this country every single day. By the midpoint of the year, the kids and teachers were so tired of it.

The weird thing was that there was this weird, 'watch your back' culture that developed, where people would stop what they were doing and put their hands on their heart, whether or not there was a flag around--in the middle of the hallway, whatever--and these were people who would complain about having to say it every day, so you know they were doing it to keep from looking bad, and not out of any sense of patriotism.

It basically created a big brother feeling in the school, and having spent a good part of my life under a communist government, I was a bit disturbed by the deja-vu. Hell, even under communism, we didn't have to say any oath every day at school.

I don't mind under God so much as we didn't have to say the pledge every day. Ultimately, I would like it removed, though, I think, mostly because of its history. It was put into the pledge in the fifties, when the commie scare was in full swing.

[Brando70]

Well, the real controversey started with Francis Bellamy, the Baptist minister who authored the original pledge. He didn't include "under God" in the original. What an athiest bastard

Seriously, though, leave the phrase in. The Ten Commandments in the courthouse thing I understand, since that is a religious document specific to two religions and prosletyzes about those faiths. "Under God" is so vague that it's only going to annoy an extremely tiny athiest minority. It's like "In God We Trust."

[Badgun]

Guys:

The Court's decision had nothing to do with the pledge of allegiance.

Their decision was based solely on whether or not that individual could sue the State or anyone on behalf of that child. They decided he could not, and that was it. They made no decision one way or another about the constitutionality of the pledge of allegiance.

Just though I should mention that, since from some of the posts it doesn't appear you guys were aware.

Actually Zeppo, the ruling was a little about the pledge as three of the justices stated that the pledge was more patriotic than religious.

In a separate opinion, Chief Justice William Rehnquist, joined by Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas, said a student who pledges allegiance to the flag promises "fidelity to our flag and our nation, not to any particular God, faith or church."

I remember back when I was a kid...we actually had a bible class in school...before the seperation of church and state. There were 26 kids in my class and everyone participated except one jewish kid who was always allowed to go to the library for the duration of the class. Everyone got what they wanted and no one cried foul. My biggest problem with all of this sh*t is why penalize the masses to satisfy the few? Everything is now all about if one freaking person gets offended, we have to change how it's done. Whatever happened to the old days where someone like this Newdow guy would have been told to shut the fu*k up if he didn't like it?

pk: I agree that Kimmel crap was a load of sh*t. He did tell the truth, but he offended someone..so there you go. I'm glad I don't cry everytime I get offended.

[Brando70]

Badgun,

What if you were the only Christian kid in a class full of Jews? How would you feel if you were the one going to the library? Our democracy is partly founded on the principle of protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

I'm not against kids studying religion in public school, as long as it's study and not witnessing. You want your kids to learn your religion in school? Send them to a private religious school (which is what my parents did), or teach them in their own time.

[pk500]

Badgun,

What if you were the only Christian kid in a class full of Jews? How would you feel if you were the one going to the library? Our democracy is partly founded on the principle of protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

I'm not against kids studying religion in public school, as long as it's study and not witnessing. You want your kids to learn your religion in school? Send them to a private religious school (which is what my parents did), or teach them in their own time.

I'm 100 percent against kids studying religion in public school. As you said Brando, send them to religious school, weekly religious classes or teach them at home or church.

Public school is a place to learn reading, writing and arithmetic -- not religion. American kids have a hard enough time learning the three R's, let along religion. Save that for church or the home.

Take care,
PK

[fsquid]

On a side note of this, there is a resolution on the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention today that will state that all Southern Baptists parents should remove their kids from public schools and either homeschool them or send them to christian academies.

[skidmark]

I am not for teaching any organized religion in public schools, but there are definite places in history and science where God will come up. Its hard to approach these areas in any type of unbiased way, and the current status of many public schools is to approach these things as godlessly as possible.

[RiverRat]

I'm 100 percent against kids studying religion in public school. As you said Brando, send them to religious school, weekly religious classes or teach them at home or church.

I'm 100% against religious INSTRUCTION in public schools, which is different than undertaking a study of religion. I went to Catholic grade school and we studied every religion under the sun, and it was done in a non-judgemental way. It was simply a study of facts and history. But it was not religous instruction. We did, however, receive instruction in the Catholic faith.

God is now an issue in political campaigns. The Catholic Church is politicizing the distribution of Holy Communion, and the "faithfulness" of candidates, while not a top drawer issue, comes up from time to time. It most certainly will be the case that a candidate will discuss his faith with the voters if he/she thinks there will be some advantage to be gained.

If we are to elect public officials in part based on their perceived relationship with God, shouldn't the fact that many people believe in God and what that belief means to them be a topic for discussion in public schools?

[RiverRat]

On a side note of this, there is a resolution on the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention today that will state that all Southern Baptists parents should remove their kids from public schools and either homeschool them or send them to christian academies.

Let's rewrite this ...

there is a resolution on the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention today that will state that all Southern Baptists parents should remove their kids from public schools and either EXPEND HUGE RESOURCES OF TIME AND MONEY TO homeschool them or PAY LARGE SUMS OF MONEY TO send them to christian academies.

Maybe they should just resolve to f*** up their lives out of sheer principle.

Where do I sign up for this?

[dbdynsty25]

I went to Catholic grade school and we studied every religion under the sun, and it was done in a non-judgemental way. It was simply a study of facts and history.

Religion isn't based on fact...it's a bunch of theories. If it was based on fact, why do we have so many different religions...all believing that 'their way' is the right way.

[RiverRat]

Religion isn't based on fact...it's a bunch of theories. If it was based on fact, why do we have so many different religions...all believing that 'their way' is the right way.

When I was referring to facts, I meant Religion X believes this, this, this, and that because of blah, blah, and blah.

[dbdynsty25]

When I was referring to facts, I meant Religion X believes this, this, this, and that because of blah, blah, and blah.

haha...ok. That makes a little more sense.

[Brando70]

Badgun,

What if you were the only Christian kid in a class full of Jews? How would you feel if you were the one going to the library? Our democracy is partly founded on the principle of protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

I'm not against kids studying religion in public school, as long as it's study and not witnessing. You want your kids to learn your religion in school? Send them to a private religious school (which is what my parents did), or teach them in their own time.

I'm 100 percent against kids studying religion in public school. As you said Brando, send them to religious school, weekly religious classes or teach them at home or church.

Public school is a place to learn reading, writing and arithmetic -- not religion. American kids have a hard enough time learning the three R's, let along religion. Save that for church or the home.

Take care,
PK

Well, more in line with what Badgun was saying, I'm not against kids studying the Bible in public school. Whether you believe in Judaism or Christianity, it is an important historical book. I'd feel the same way about studying the Koran. Comparative religious study is fascinating and I think very helpful to understanding history.

The problem I have is when it veers into telling kids that the Bible is above everything else in a public classroom. You're free to believe that, not free to teach that when you're drawing taxpayer dollars. Unfortunately, I think that's what the activist evangelicals are gunning for.

[pk500]

>>>God is now an issue in political campaigns. The Catholic Church is politicizing the distribution of Holy Communion, and the "faithfulness" of candidates, while not a top drawer issue, comes up from time to time. It most certainly will be the case that a candidate will discuss his faith with the voters if he/she thinks there will be some advantage to be gained.

If we are to elect public officials in part based on their perceived relationship with God, shouldn't the fact that many people believe in God and what that belief means to them be a topic for discussion in public schools?<<<

Well, it's a sad commentary on the state of the American electorate that they put a candidate's relationship with God on an equal level with that candidate's stance on political and social issues. Yet another example of how the religious right in this country is f*cking the political process royally.

I'm sure there's a growing segment of the U.S. population that would elect a Baptist dimwit over an agnostic statesman because of that dimwit's "personal relationship with God." Sad, sad, sad.

Don't take my comments as an endorsement of atheism or agnosticism. Hardly. I'm a weekly communicant of Catholic Mass. But I also keep church and state as separate as possible in my life.

About the only religious issue that ever enters the political debate for me is abortion. But I don't oppose abortion because the Catholic Church tells me to. I oppose abortion because I think it's murder, plain and simple.

Your mileage may, and probably does, vary.

Take care,
PK

[Zeppo]

Comparative religious study is fascinating and I think very helpful to understanding history.

In fact it's critical; the two are inseparable.

The problem I have is when it veers into telling kids that the Bible is above everything else in a public classroom. You're free to believe that, not free to teach that when you're drawing taxpayer dollars. Unfortunately, I think that's what the activist evangelicals are gunning for.

Indeed. The problem I have, is when something like creationism is taught in public schools. Beyond absurd, I find this kind of thing actively insulting. And I think it is in fact threatening to the USA as an entity. I really do.

And PK, you do know that the Archbishop of Denver has stated that John Kerry should not be given Communion because he refuses to support laws that would ban abortion? I never really thought of the Catholic Church as part of the Religious Right (excepting maybe thsoe super-conservative, pre-Vatican II nostalgic freakazoids like Mel Gibson and that ilk).

My question is, why then not ban the Republicans that support the death penalty, or Republicans who cut educational programs? Or public assistance programs? Or what about just war? Where is the Catholic uproar against the Bush administration regarding the war? We know how the Pope feels about it, what about the Archbishop of Denver?

I agree with those who feel the whole thing smacks of the seeds that lead to Inquisition. Tell me who I should vote for? Tell me who is a 'better' Catholic? Pardon me, your eminence, but get out of my voting booth!