R.I.P. those affected by the school shooting in CT

[Jackdog]

Chicago and NYC have the strictest gun laws in this country. How's that working out?

From an October news report: Homicides in New York City have plummeted 18 percent in 2012 over the same period last year and, with three months left in the year, are at a rate among the lowest seen in the post-World War II period, records show.

I have no problem with citizens properly trained and armed and also trust our police and armed forces implicitly. But how many people who are armed have been properly trained? And how many teachers -- who, let's face it, usually lean toward the liberal side of the fence -- are going to mentally buy into weapons training even if it's a job prerequisite?

And what's to prevent a strong, athletic high school student with anger management issues wrestling a gun away from an armed waif of a teacher who is 5-foot, 100 pounds? And how many kids would be caught in the crossfire of such a struggle, especially if other armed teachers entered the classroom and started shooting?

There's no simple answer. This is a complex, complex issue with valid points on both sides.

Sorry I edited my post above while you answered. My point is this. Don't punish the millions of law abiding people because of idiots.

[pk500]

I agree, Jackdiggity. But I guess I differ with you and Teal because I think gun ownership should be a privilege, not a guaranteed right.

That might be the fulcrum upon which this civilized debate pivots.

Merry Christmas to you, Carol and Dom!

[Jackdog]

Paul. We will agree to disagree. Trust me it's not a guaranteed right. Myself and thousands of other soldiers diagnosed with PTSD cannot buy a shotgun let alone a pistol or rifle. Ironic huh? We are deemed unsafe in a country we protected. Remember when I was shot in front of my family back in Detroit? I obviously feel safer when I can shoot back. I can't think of a better person to protect my family than myself. You can check the link or not. It's cool man. I love ya and if ever given the chance I'll protect your unarmed ass. Merry Christmas to you, Shelia and the Kelly Clan!

http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/crime/8-horrib ... wners.html

[pk500]

Paul. We will agree to disagree. Trust me it's not a guaranteed right. Myself and thousands of other soldiers diagnosed with PTSD cannot buy a shotgun let alone a pistol or rifle. Ironic huh? We are deemed unsafe in a country we protect. Remember when I shot in front of my family back in Detroit? I obviously feel safer when I can shoot back. I can't think of a better person to protect my family than myself. You can check the link or not. It's cool man. I love ya and if ever given the chance I got your your unarmed back.

http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/crime/8-horrib ... wners.html

Thanks, brother.

Yep, I remember the shooting. And it's part of the information that rushes through my brain and makes this one of the more gray arguments I'll ever have with others and myself. I really struggle with it, and there's no question the emotion of current events colors the debate an even richer shade of gray for me.

I'd rather see kids and young adults use their fists -- preferably in a boxing ring -- than guns to decide differences. I think we can both agree on that.

[Jackdog]

I'd rather see kids use their fists -- either on the street or in a boxing ring -- than guns to decide differences. I think we can both agree on that.

Damn right! Couldn't agree more.

[F308GTB]

Even if tomorrow owning a gun were made illegal, practically there would be no way to "clean up the streets." There are so many guns in the hands of private individuals to cause this sort of damage for a long time. Hell, you can still buy guns from the 1800s and earlier. I'm an advocate of gun control (IMO no one NEEDS a semi-automatic, and the flint lock bearing founding fathers probably never envisioned such artillery in the state's, let alone individuals', hands), but knowing you can't clean up the streets, the answer is better enforcement and stricter penalties when crimes involve a gun. Up the consequences on armed robbery, assault, etc. More life sentences and toss out any "cruel and unusual" punishment crap. Put the bastards in tents or one giant cell and make the livi g conditions deplorable. Criminals' actions removed them from the human(ity) race, so spare them that right.

But uncivilized crimes like this are the consequence of living in civilized society. Be it this incident, McVeigh, sarin attacks in Japan a few years ago, IRA bombings, etc. The scum out there will always find a way with or without a gun.

[Teal]

As long as someone has a certain type of weapon,everyone should have access to them. I trust the military guys I know, and the police officers I know, but I don't trust the federal government, nr the good will of mankind...implicitly.

[Jared]

I'm sure this thread is headed for 'lock city'...

If things are civil, there's no need for the lock.

Of course, if they don't, then lock city it is...

[Teal]

I don't want to begrudge anyone their opinion, and, to be sure, this situation does, as the president said, happen too often. We all agree there's a problem...we just don't all agree on the solution. I simply think that restricting guns from the law abiding gives power to those who disregard the law. And using every tragedy that befalls us as an opportunity to seize, limit, or otherwise restrict the freedoms of all those who didn't and haven't pulled the trigger is not only not helpful...its harmful. Its the same that gave us Prohibition, and we can all see how that worked out.

[Danimal]

I'll say my piece and step out of this thread. Mainly because this hits too close to home for me to make my thoughts totally unbiased.

This thread bothers me because it is no longer focused on what it should be, the children. I'm not someone who wants guns banned or pulled away from people but I find it disturbing the thought process of the majority of gun "enthusiasts"

The average persons thought on this event "This is a tragedy, those poor families how do we stop it"

The gun enthusiast "Wow if someone was armed they could of stopped him, now every will want to take away my guns."

I'm not pointing a finger at anyone on this forum just my observations in general from reading around the web. If you're going to tell me with a straight face that if your kid was murdered and someone started saying more guns or armed teachers would fix the problem and you would want to hear it at that moment. Well than I don't have a reply to a person whose though process is on that level.

The bottom line is the media is the main cause of this. Use to be crazy fucks just offed themselves and now they get to one up the last crazy son of a b*tch. Then it gets constant news coverage. Then the media immediately jumps on the gun control argument. Now both parties claim the other is taking advantage of the situation and all hell breaks loose.

Pass some laws that stop media coverage on this or really limit it and see what happens.

[Jackdog]

I'll say my piece and step out of this thread. Mainly because this hits too close to home for me to make my thoughts totally unbiased.

This thread bothers me because it is no longer focused on what it should be, the children. I'm not someone who wants guns banned or pulled away from people but I find it disturbing the thought process of the majority of gun "enthusiasts"

The average persons thought on this event "This is a tragedy, those poor families how do we stop it"

The gun enthusiast "Wow if someone was armed they could of stopped him, now every will want to take away my guns."

I'm not pointing a finger at anyone on this forum just my observations in general from reading around the web. If you're going to tell me with a straight face that if your kid was murdered and someone started saying more guns or armed teachers would fix the problem and you would want to hear it at that moment. Well than I don't have a reply to a person whose though process is on that level.

The bottom line is the media is the main cause of this. Use to be crazy fucks just offed themselves and now they get to one up the last crazy son of a b*tch. Then it gets constant news coverage. Then the media immediately jumps on the gun control argument. Now both parties claim the other is taking advantage of the situation and all hell breaks loose.

Pass some laws that stop media coverage on this or really limit it and see what happens.

I disagree. I think every comment in this thread is about the children. I believe every "Gun Enthusiast" in this thread has kids and these events scare the living s*** out of us just like the so called "Average Person". The difference is in the opinions we have on how to stop it. If my son was killed I would absolutely chime in on how I would like to see others saved. I look at what works for other countries and what doesn't. We are all sick of this s*** because we are all human beings. Frustrating to say the least.

As far as your take on the media goes....AMEN!

I respect your opinions on this tragedy. Hope all is well Dan.

[Teal]

I hate talking about it for all the reasons you cite; honestly, every time something like this happens, it turns into a gun control shitstorm and for the love of all that is holy...that isn't going to bring back one little kindergarten kid. Yet...that never stops the idiocy from perpetuating itself. But you ar dead ringers in the media. We should forget that monsters name and face, but we'll see his name and face everywhere on tv, along with a bunch of stupid Monday morning quarterbacking on guns, coulda shoulda, wouldas, and shrinks trying to tell us what that bastard was thinking. I have grown to hate the media universally.

[pigpen81]

You guys are all so flipping awesome!

Such a tragedy and such contentious and potentially divisive topics, and everyone hear handles it so well.

I still cannot believe this whole thing happened. I have been hugging my boys all weekend.

[fsquid]

I don't want guns banned at all, but why the need for the assault weapons? What purpose do they serve outside of our military? Same with the huge magazines that enable these suckers to shoot off rounds at 5 per second?

[Teal]

But by the classification that has tended to be used, ALL rifles that aren't bolt action would be considered 'assault' weapons. Truthfully, it's only an assault weapon when it's used in...an assault...

Again, the Bushmaster .223 is nothing more than a rifle, looking all military. That's it. Automatic weapons are already a no-no. I see no reason to let them go further.

[Teal]

The focus, honestly, needs to be on mental illness and what to do to help these parents who are dealing with with Asbergers kids and the like. And on the families of those beautiful little kiddos and teachers who will be having a difficulty I can't even imagine for a long time to come. May God bless them and be with them in an extremely close way this Christmas.

I usually have very little use for the Huffington Post, but this article is very good, and shines a light where the light needs to be shined:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

[Pete]

A good, calm, rational debate. You don't see it too often. My $.02.

I have never really been a gun advocate. Not that I was or am against guns. I understand their purpose when used correctly. My family never hunted so I never saw reason to own a gun. I live in a nice, suburban area where you wouldn't think you would need to have one in your house unless you were a hunter. Now I just don't know.

My Dad is a veteran of the Korean war. He had a rifle in the house that was absolutely off limits. He told my sister and I at a very young age that we did not want to know what would happen to us if we were caught playing around with it. Believe me, I was terrified of my father and I never went close to it. With that, my Dad is now probably my best friend.

And I think that is where gun control starts. For goodness sake, know your family and whether it is safe to have a gun in your house. I give my children unconditional love but I hold them to a very high standard. I applaud them when they succeed and discipline them when it is needed. They are not my best friends, but hopefully, like I learned with my father, we will someday have that relationship. Right now, I have a job as a parent and I take it seriously.

Lastly, I spoke with my son about security at his former high school and now my daughters. There is a full time sheriff at the school that roams the halls. I asked if he was armed and he is. I know we cannot have a sheriff at every school in America, but maybe we can have a dedicated teacher or counselor or principle that is trained and takes courses regularly. Would this nut job have thought twice about going to that school if he thought someone would have taken him out as he was walking down the hall? Who knows. But this coward targeted a school where he knew there were likely no resistance gun wise and where 5-11 year old's were not going to be able to stop him.

Sorry for the long post. I wish I had some answers.

[Teal]

There are so many good men who have defended our country and have sacrificed so much to do so, who come back and have no room left for them in society, in the workforce. I'd support the idea of creating a private school security detail made up of these soldiers, properly vetted and all that, of course, whose job it would be to provide the security and protection that is unfortunately needed in our schools these days. Plainclothes, conceal-carry (so as not to frighten the little ones), good natured but absolutely unyielding in their devotion to the protection of the kiddos. You're right, we can't have a sheriff in every school. But we could do this, perhaps...

[Leadfoot5]

A good, calm, rational debate. You don't see it too often. My $.02.

My thoughts on this thread too. Thanks to all for the food for thought.

[Feanor]

Even if tomorrow owning a gun were made illegal, practically there would be no way to "clean up the streets." There are so many guns in the hands of private individuals to cause this sort of damage for a long time. Hell, you can still buy guns from the 1800s and earlier. I'm an advocate of gun control (IMO no one NEEDS a semi-automatic, and the flint lock bearing founding fathers probably never envisioned such artillery in the state's, let alone individuals', hands), but knowing you can't clean up the streets, the answer is better enforcement and stricter penalties when crimes involve a gun. Up the consequences on armed robbery, assault, etc. More life sentences and toss out any "cruel and unusual" punishment crap. Put the bastards in tents or one giant cell and make the livi g conditions deplorable. Criminals' actions removed them from the human(ity) race, so spare them that right.

But uncivilized crimes like this are the consequence of living in civilized society. Be it this incident, McVeigh, sarin attacks in Japan a few years ago, IRA bombings, etc. The scum out there will always find a way with or without a gun.

The difference is a gun makes it easy for one guy with mental problems to massacre large amounts of people very easily, while terrorist attacks like the ones you mentioned require more skill and planning, and usually more people to be involved.

But I agree that there are so many guns in America that laws aimed at cleaning up the streets are doomed to failure. Realistically, all people who live here can do is just hope that all the mass shootings to come don't involve them personally.

[Jackdog]

Interesting read from Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.

Grossman’s Five D’s
In the next installment of this series, I will explore what follows in much greater detail, but for now, let’s contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman’s “Five D’s.” While you do, I encourage you to add in the comments area below your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.

1. Denial — Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman.

2. Deter — Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero

3. Detect — We’re talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn’t happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.

4. Delay — Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.

a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.
b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... is-denial/

[Teal]

If they are properly armed and trained, it's much less of a worry. Still there, no doubt, but lessened. Just ask Switzerland...

[ScoopBrady]

Why arm the teachers? Wouldn't a more effective way be to have an armed security person, or even two, at each school that has the proper training and background? There is no way in hell I want a gun in every classroom.

[Teal]

Why arm the teachers? Wouldn't a more effective way be to have an armed security person, or even two, at each school that has the proper training and background? There is no way in hell I want a gun in every classroom.

Without mandatory training and background checks? Me neither. And armed (PRIVATE, not government) security might do just as well, as I offered with the idea about employing former military. Yet if I were a teacher, I'd be all for being armed. It sucks, but we're in a different world now, and the 'safe school' idea just got blown away...literally. A well armed populace is the best defense against tyranny, as the saying goes. And those who are in charge of our most precious possessions should be the most well armed. Just my opinion, but a strong one, nonetheless.

[JOZ]

I would agree that a trained armed security person would be a good thing. I'm guessing they will have to do away with any glass for entryways, unless they move to bulletproof glass. It perhaps would be enough of a deterrant. Who knows. Ridiculous it even has to come to this.

And unfortunately it would just make these nuts go elsewhere to do their evil deeds.