Baseball for beginners

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:08 am

Now that I´m able to see full games on a regular basis over here in the UK, I´m learning more of the terms but finding some of the strategies a bit difficult. Can any of you kind people identify a good site (or back to the paper age, a good book) to get me up to speed ?
 
 PS - I´m still in ´team selection´ stage. Currently leaning towards
 Boston - good futility/doomed factor a la Man City,
 
 Philadelphia - cool strip (careful, that´s how I chose the Bengals) and good blue-collar attitude,
 
 Detroit - anyone spot that I like losers ?
 
 Suggestions of an anatomically feasible nature welcome !!
 
 PS - Can anyone quickly clear up what a ´walk-off´ double/HR is ? Is it a winning hit (hence the players ´walk off´) ?

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:16 am

Dave, you are correct about the term "walk-off." It is a relatively new phrase. I just remember them called "game winning" hits, HR, etc. when I was a kid.
 
 Maybe you could try "Baseball for Dummies." It´s written by Hall of Fame 2nd Baseman and current ESPN analyst Joe Morgan. You could probably pick that up real cheap used.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 1:49 pm

"Boston - good futility/doomed factor a la Man City"
 
 If you want to follow a team that is forever doomed, follow those loveable losers, the Chicago Cubs. I´d also suggest following a National League team, because the designated hitter in the American League makes no sense.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:25 pm

AGREED! Beware the Designated Hitter!!!!
 
 The AL still has this stupid DH rule after 30 some-odd years. Originally it was supposed to be a 3 year experiment (sort of like inter-league play, huh?).
 
 I grew up as an Orioles fan (disenfranchised D.C. kid, Senators having been stolen permanently soon after I was born), but since movng to NYC, I have become a Mets fan, and let me tell you, the National League game is FAR, FAR, superior to the beer-league softball style game they play in the AL. The DH may seem like a minor difference, but it truly affects everything else in the game.
 
 Plus NL games are on average 1/2 hr. shorter than AL games (OK that´s a guess). Still they are too long, but at least they are shorter than the AL hit-fests.
 
 If it matters to you at ALL, the Cubs and the Red Sox are the only 2 teams left who play in stadiums over 40 years old (maybe even 30yrs old- actually I think Dodger Stadium in LA and Oakland Colleseum are older too, but you know, those are Pacific Coast lague cities). Yankee Stadium (the house that Ruth built) is a shell of what it was before the mid-70s refurbishing, and Tiger Stadium (which, like Fenway, opened in 1912, I believe) was just recently abandoned. But if you come to appreciate the history of the game at all, this may make a difference. I would tell you that if you get to see any one baseball game, try to make it at Fenway (Yanks at Red Sox can´t be beat) or Wrigley. Or Yankee Stadium if you can´t get to the others, if only to see the monument park out past center field (truly worth arriving early to see, although you may have to have at least heard of those remembered there, I suppose, for it to mean anything).
 
 You better be careful, dave; as footie has become such a passion for me, you too may find baseball overtaking your life soon enough. (at least I hope so <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif"> )

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:36 pm

By the way, if you´re up for some history of the game, Ken Burns´s "Baesball" can´t be beat. It is long, made up of 9 episodes (he calls them ´innings´), each 90 to 150 minutes long. But it is comprehensive, and may well give you some insights into the bizarre American psyche. It won´t teach you the rules of the game, but it may explain why we love it so, and why we yanks are so crazy.
 
 I´m not sure if there is a European region DVD release, but it´s worth trying to find.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:53 pm

Thanks very much for all of your kind responses. I´ve managed to source a copy of Baseball for Dummies for a fiver.
 
 Thanks also for the team advice. I´m probably gonna go with the Phillies, which has now assured them of at least 20 years of underachievement.
 
 cheers
 
 DT

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:58 pm

20 years? Don´t sweat it. That´s nothing. They´ve been around since 1880, and only won one World Series.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 1:19 am

Dave,
 
 This is very much jumping in the deep end, but I strongly recommend finding a copy of Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers. James is the pioneer of advance statistical analysis of the game, but more importantly one of the great writers of the game. He has a rapier wit and stunning command of language.
 
 Much of his work would be very rough on the neophyte fan, but this particular work would be great. He discusses the efficacy of bunting and stealing, the importance (or lack thereof) of lineup selection and other meat and potatoes matters which would be invaluable to the new fan.
 
 The best thing I can say is that I wish I had read this book 15 years earlier in my career as a fan <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> Also you MUST read Earl Weaver on Strategy. Weaver was one of the game´s great managers and he will complement the James material with experience and insight that will bring many of James´ conclusions to life.
 
 I *think* the James might be out of print, but I procured a used copy off of one of Amazon´s satellite sites a few years back. Weaver is perpetually republished.
 
 If you have any specific questions, don´t hesitate to drop me a line.
 
 [ This message was edited by: RobVarak on 05-07-2003 22:20 ]

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:15 pm

Dave,
 
 One other recommendation. "Moneyball" by Michael Lewis. It´s focus is on the front office machinations and player evaluation so the lessons for on the field play are indirect, but it is one of the best baseball books ever written.
 
 It´s widely available as it was only published a few months ago.

snate · Post by **snate** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:31 am

The Weaver book that Rob recommended is great. Here are some other recommendations:
 
 Pure Baseball: Pitch by Pitch for the Advanced Fan
 by Keith Hernandez
 
 You´re Missin´ a Great Game
 by Whitey Herzog
 
 Baseball Strategies
 by American Baseball Coaches Association

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:32 pm

Yo SNate,
 
 Does that Hernandez book come with a free sample of nose candy? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Sorry, the Cub fan in me just can´t resist!

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:38 pm

Thanks again for all the help, fellows. Amazon.co.uk was surprisingly well stocked with the tomes recommended, so I´ve gone for Baseball for Dummies and the Earl Weaver book as a starter.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:57 pm

I LOVE the NHBA, but I thought that was a bit too much James for the beginner. The managers guide is is much more of a primer, and I think, one of James´ hidden jewels. It´s also geared more toward talk of tactics and strategy.
 
 I´d definitely suggest the NHBA as intermediate reading for the second semester <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:25 am

dave may i recomend my 2 favorite teams
 
 Cincinnati Reds
 
 hey ya already follow the Bengals this keeps it all in one american city.......the Reds are a modern day underdog due to the economics of baseball these days yet they have a rich history with a half a dozen world championships......and you can join us in supporting pete rose hall of fame chase <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 or
 
 Tampa Bay Devil Rays
 
 hey now this is a underdog....and they need every fan they can get "trust me"
 
 they have only been around a few years...but with Lou Pinnela now at the helm (former Yankees,Reds,Mariners manager) they are at least becoming fun to watch give it all they got everynight...even if that isnt always enough
 
 ps: pick either of these i will hook you up with a jersey....im sending a carson palmer one your way soon anyway <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 the guys have already listed some great books so here is a couple from me that are maybe a bit better starter ones to ease you in
 ........................................................................
 
 The Real 100 Best Baseball Players of ALL TIME... and why
 
 by ken shouler
 ..........................................................................
 
 Ted Williams Hit List..the ultimate ranking of baseballs greatest hitters by the last man to bat .400
 
 ted williams with jim prime
 ..........................................................................
 
 BASEBALL TOP TEN
 written and compiled by james buckly jr and david fischer
 
 (great little facts book with a kids appeal)
 
 ..........................................................................
 oh and your not a baseball fan till you get ahold of a pack of baseball cards and chew on some of that gum
 
 <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_razz.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_razz.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_razz.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif">

snate · Post by **snate** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:15 pm

Low blow Rob. Didn´t everyone do a little nose candy in the 80´s? (clearing throat) ... Leon Durham
 
 Either way, Hernandez is one of the finest players and baseball minds I have been privileged to watch in my years of being a fan. His book has great insight into the finer points of the game.
 
 I´ve almost bought that Bill James book on managers a few times. I have all his other works. I gues I will have to check it out.
 
 Hey Dave, Can you point me in the direction of a good footie book? I am interested in strategy or a yearbook that gives a blurb on each players skills/strengths.
 
 [ This message was edited by: snate on 10-07-2003 09:16 ]

K_Mosley · Post by **K_Mosley** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:08 pm

That SOB Hernandez "stole" a few million from Cleveland at the end of his career! Hurt himself while moving, he says, and missed the whole year!
 
 Objectively, I´d have to admit to his accomplishments. As an Indians fan, I´m (obviously) a little PO´d at how he treated the team and the fans in Cleveland in the early 90´s...
 
 Alright, I´m over it now! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Kevin

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:45 pm

Hey Dave, Can you point me in the direction of a good footie book? I am interested in strategy or a yearbook that gives a blurb on each players skills/strengths.
 ---------------
 
 Snate, if I may be so bold, I´ve gone on quite the reading spree on Soccer books. There are a couple of great encyclopedia-type things available at most major book stores. They all seem to have sections on great players, current stars, the history of international leagues and Cup competitions etc.
 
 "Fever Pitch" by Nick Hornby is a must-read. One of my favorite books, it speaks directly to the die-hard fan of any sport.
 
 Just this morning I picked up "Soccer: How to Play the Game" by the US Soccer Federation. This seems to have nice sections on the both technique and tactics. What caught my eye are the sections on the tactical responsibilities of each position; this was something that I´ve been looking for.
 
 Just recently finished a book on Brazilian Soccer called "Futbol". There´s a subtitle that I can´t remember off-hand. Not so much technical detail there, more of a survey of Brazilian society through the prism of soccer. It´s written by an English correspondent from the Guardian who worked in Brazil for several years. Lots of good stories in that one, and it´s a good summer read.
 
 Like I said, I´ve sort of immersed myself in soccer reading lately. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 PS Can´t believe you´ve defiled this forum with the name of L**on Durh*m. Curse you!
 [ This message was edited by: RobVarak on 10-07-2003 10:45 ]

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:31 pm

Snate
 
 Unlike baseball, soccer is not blessed with a huge number of good books, and it isn´t that heavy on stats either. Rob´s list was pretty good, so I´ll just add a few
 
 General
 
 Fever Pitch is a classic.
 I´m also always pushing ´The Far Corner´ by Harry Pearson, a copy of which I sent to Paul Kelly recently.
 
 Reference
 
 Rothman´s football yearbook is a bit dry, but has details on all the players.
 
 Simon Inglis´s book ´Football Grounds of Britain´ has sections on each ground, and loads of historical gubbins.
 
 Clubs
 
 Man City - ´Bleak and Blue´ - which sums it up.
 Barcelona - ´Barca´
 
 Foreign Soccer
 
 Spain - ´Morbo´ is the best book I´ve found on the fascinating Spanish league, including the rivalry between Barca and Real Madrid
 
 Italy - ´ A Season with Verona´ by Tim Parks.
 
 both of these (in fact most of the soccer books I´ve got) have a lot of historical and social background in them...just to show how football in Europe is interwoven with general life.
 
 The one other book to have a look for is ´The Football Business´ by David Conn...this sounds like a UK version of that ´Moneyball´ baseball book that people mentioned.
 
 I don´t really have any books on coaching or strategy. There may be some, but football is a simple game, when all´s said and done.
 
 Hope this helps !
 
 DT

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:31 pm

Snate
 
 Unlike baseball, soccer is not blessed with a huge number of good books, and it isn´t that heavy on stats either. Rob´s list was pretty good, so I´ll just add a few
 
 General
 
 Fever Pitch is a classic.
 I´m also always pushing ´The Far Corner´ by Harry Pearson, a copy of which I sent to Paul Kelly recently.
 
 Reference
 
 Rothman´s football yearbook is a bit dry, but has details on all the players.
 
 Simon Inglis´s book ´Football Grounds of Britain´ has sections on each ground, and loads of historical gubbins.
 
 Clubs
 
 Man City - ´Bleak and Blue´ - which sums it up.
 Barcelona - ´Barca´
 
 Foreign Soccer
 
 Spain - ´Morbo´ is the best book I´ve found on the fascinating Spanish league, including the rivalry between Barca and Real Madrid
 
 Italy - ´ A Season with Verona´ by Tim Parks.
 
 both of these (in fact most of the soccer books I´ve got) have a lot of historical and social background in them...just to show how football in Europe is interwoven with general life.
 
 The one other book to have a look for is ´The Football Business´ by David Conn...this sounds like a UK version of that ´Moneyball´ baseball book that people mentioned.
 
 I don´t really have any books on coaching or strategy. There may be some, but football is a simple game, when all´s said and done.
 
 Hope this helps !
 
 DT

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:41 pm

Cinci
 
 Thanks for the offer of 2 baseball teams. I will, however, have to pass on following your suggestions.
 
 Tampa Bay - I saw one of their games on TV recently. Looks like they were playing in a sauna.
 
 Cincinnati - Considered them, but I have no connection with the city, and, more importantly, I just could not consider wearing a shirt that had the word ´REDS´ on it, owing to being a Man City fan.
 
 As for a CP shirt, if you sort me with one of them (´chunky adult´ size), I´ll consider reciprocating with a Man City shirt (no and name of your choice), making you the hippest and savviest dude in Florida.
 
 E-mail me for further info.
 
 Oh yeah - which team. I decided to go with the Phillies. I am a confirmed Yankee-hater though, owing to their marketing tie-up with Man Utd. Not seen any Yankees shirts over here tho, and I´m sure that Yankees fans aren´t queuing out of the door to get their ManUre merchandise. [ This message was edited by: davet010 on 10-07-2003 12:44 ]

snate · Post by **snate** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:55 pm

I just ordered this one. Anyone ever seen it before?
 
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:16 am

I´ve seen it on the shelf. Looks good. Should get you up to speed on players in a hurry.

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:40 am

LOL...REDS yeah didnt think of that
 
 its a done deal on the jersey thing we will hook up on email about that later <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 nothing wrong with the phillies..... national league is the way to go anyways
 
 oh and the tropicana isnt nearly as nice as a sauna your way to kind...LOL
 
 yeah unfortunatley the brains behind the devil rays decided years back that baseball in "FLORIDA" should be played under a roof IN THE MOST STERILE ENVIROMENT MAN CAN MANUFACTURE
 
 really helps promote tourism......we actually do have beaches,orange trees,manatees <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_razz.gif"> ,bikinis <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif"> ,sunshine <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon21.gif">
 
 but you wouldnt know it watching our baseball team <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif">