Why is Soccer dead in the USA?

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:15 pm

I have no real idea to this question. Why does a country like Cameroon dreadfully weep an awful death like Foe, when, if say John O´Brien died here (God Forbid) it wouldn´t be a big deal?
 
 Why is soccer not televised at all here?
 
 Why is the MLS a failure?
 
 Is the NFL/NBA a reason?

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:09 pm

Gator
 
 Allow me to post some ideas from a European perspective. Of course, some of these may be wrong...
 
 1. Not enough scoring. For some reason, people equate scoring with excitement, which is rubbish. I´ve watched 0-0 draws that gripped from first minute to last, but wouldn´t watch an NBA game if you paid me.
 
 2. Catch-up syndrome. By the time football (for such is its proper name) tried to reestablish itself, the NFL, NBA, NHL etc were already established in the minds of the public, who had already adopted sports and teams.
 
 3. The immigrant factor (part 1 : pre-1900). Immigrants into the US before about 1900 would have brought with them some knowledge of football, but apart from the British, not a great deal. It was about that time that British traders, miners, railway workers were helping to establish the first clubs in Spain (particularly in the mining areas such as Huelva), Italy (railway workers in the North), Brazil and Argentina. Football was thus not as popular then with European immigrants as you might think - only England and Scotland had organised leagues before 1900.
 
 4. Immigrants part two (post 1900). The famous British historian Louis Namier once pointed to a phenomenon whereby immigrants would try to be more ´English than the English´, or whatever. Equally, those reaching the New World, while still seeking to retain some of their old identity, find adopting some new customs useful to assimilate themselves, such as an interest in new sports and the teams of their localities. You can see a similar thing in Barcelona, where Spaniards moving in from other parts of the country would quickly learn that supporting the local favourites Barcelona CF (rather than the more ´Spanish´ team of Espanyol) would ease your integration into Catalan society a little.
 
 All of which may not add a great deal to an understanding of why football doesn´t really work in the US.
 
 Some last thoughts
 
 - it´s still seen as an ´immigrants´ game
 
 - it´s much more fun with away fans there, which is more of a problem in a vast country such as the US
 
 - because of its relative newness there is no attachment to teams
 
 - because of the franchise system of the MLS there does not appear to be the same attachment of teams to places
 
 Must go now - ChampMan 4 is calling me... <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif"> [ This message was edited by: davet010 on 29-06-2003 10:10 ]

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:37 pm

Gators, here is my $0.02;
 
 MLS is not a failure. In fact MLS is moving forward quite nicely, and appears to be on its way to self-sufficiency and thus permanence. Within the next few years, nearly half the teams will have thier own stadiums, built specifically for soccer, and designed to hold crowds 25%-50% larger than basketball/hockey arenas. In 10 years who knows? Crew Stadium in Columbus was the initial one, but the Home Depot Center in LA is in many ways the landmark, as it is the first truly top-rate soccer-only facility in the nation. When I was a kid, something like HDC was not even imaginable. Heck, even 5 years ago it was hard to picture a soccer stadium going up in LA before an NFL team got one built. Sooner than you think, there will be 2 or 3 more just like it around the country, maybe even better facilities.
 
 MLS is also slowly but surely achieving legitamcy as a competitive league. Every year the quality of play improves (there are more teenage players in MLS than ever before). Many players who were starting just 2 years ago are no longer in the league; they simply are not complete enough players to compete with the new youngsters exploding into the league. In the last two years, I have noticed major increases in the competitiveness and level of play, which to me means the improvement of the league is accelerating. As these youngsters continue to arrive into the league, there is no way for the quality of the league to go but up. Remember, the league is only in it´s 8th year. When this year´s rookies are 10yr veterans, I think you will see a very different MLS than what exists now. It amazes me even now when they describe current MLS players, such as Kyle Martino, as having been fans of one MLS team or another as kids; they are that young, that the league has been around for nearly half their lives!
 
 Do you remember 1990? Probably not. Italia ´90 was the first World Cup for which the USA qualified in 40 years (thanks to an expanded tournament, and thus 1 more spot for our region in the big show). That team was made up of college players and a handful of Europeans with US passports, and news of their perfomance (including a tense 1-0 loss to hosts Italy, who by all rights should have creamed us 3-0 or worse) went mostly unreported in the States. But, do you remember last summer, Korea/Japan? I imagine unless you were living under a rock, you would have heard something about it. So you see, slowly but surely, soccer is creeping into the general public consciousness. Nearly no one on that team was born outside the US, and of those that were, all but two moved here before age 5. Also, for the first time ever, we are likely to have more professionals on our Olympic Team than not. The Olympics being an under-23 youth tournament (with 3 over-age exceptions), having an all professional team is the norm for most participants. For us, it would be a first. Last Olympics we achieved a never before result, finishing 4th, our best finish ever. On that team, only a handful were playing professionally in MLS or Europe. Those on the team that were not, are now, and generally doing well.
 
 I am sorry to go rambling on like this, but you see, you have touched a nerve.
 
 It is unfortunate that the general perception is that MLS is a failure. The fact of the matter is that these things take time, a long time. What do you think the NFL was like before the late 1950s? Or the NBA before the 70s? Arena Football just completed it´s first-ever season carried on national TV (ok, so it was NBC, but still they do show some sports, no?). I think this one was the 17th season of the AFL. MLS is less than half as old. One of the main backers of MLS is in fact also one of the original owners in the true AFL, the old, outdoor league that competed against, then merged with the NFL in the late 60s. His name is Lamar Hunt, and he was also a prime backer of the old NASL (you know, the league with the Cosmos, and Pele and Beckenbauer). So, there are Americans who believe in the game, and are convinced that it can become a successful pro sport in this nation (and that this naton can become a world power in the sport), and that group is growing larger every day. The big rollers have yet to be discouraged by past failure, why should we?
 
 As for TV:
 Contrary to what you may think, there is a lot of soccer on TV. When I was a child, the only soccer I remember seeing was Mexico ´86, and they would cut to commercials in the midst of the game. Of course, a lot of goals were scored while they were away at commercial. Today, there is FSW, which shows a butt-load of footie, there are matches all the time on Spanish TV, and ESPN2 shows some UEFA Champions League and MLS matches. When I was a child, my soccer-playing friends would have to go to their coach´s house to watch those precious tapes of recent European matches, just to get a glimpse of how the game is really played. Now, the kids are exposed to soccer, and quality soccer too, all the time. And you know how kids love to imitate what they see on TV? Any question as to why our young players are so much more skillful on the ball and creative on the pitch than those guys from ´90? No question in my mind, it´s because they are exposed to much more high quality soccer and much more often. Even MLS is a major improvement over nothing.
 
 The lack of TV support for MLS and especially the National Team is frustrating to us die-hards. But I think one must be patient. My feeling is that we are in an unprecedently exciting time for soccer in the US. This summer in fact, there are several big-time European powers coming to play some exhibitions here in the US in the run-up to their season (and I do mean big-time, not like Rangers or Sporting Lisbon from years past). The Italian Super-Cup, the last preseason match before the season starts, pitting the Cup winners against the League winners (and this time it also happens to be a nice rematch of the Champions League Final) is to be played here in NYC (OK, so it´s in the Swamp, but it´s close enough!). I may be wrong, but I believe this sort of thing is unprecedented. [davet010, has the Charity Shield ever been played outside of the UK?] I expect a lively and excited crowd, to rival the 77,000+ who packed the Swamp for Real Madrid v. AC Roma last summer.
 
 The point of all this is to say that the state of soccer is proceeding apace in the US. Just because a lot of people DON´T know about it, doesn´t mean that NO ONE does. There is a large and continuously growing community of soccer devotees amassing in this country. The Euproeans have been salivating over our entertainment dollars (and jersey-buying dollars) for a long time, and they will continue to find new ways to exploit our market more and more agressively. I expect summer tours like Manchester United´s upcoming one to soon become soccer traditions, for us and the Europeans. In 5 years it may be strange NOT to see the best teams in Europe hold training camps in the States.
 
 I think davet010´s point about "more English than English" is very appropriate. Lou Gehrig´s parents wanted their son to grow up American, and thus he learned the American game. This was typical for most of our Nation´s history. Well, in todays America, maintaining one´s own cultural idenetity within America is critical. For many, their identity is tied up in their Nation´s soccer team and their club team from their home town. They pass this sense of identity to their children. This makes it very difficult for the MLS, as MLS teams have no history and no real tradition compared to established leagues around the world. Thus, the best potential market for MLS, those immigrants with a great love for soccer, is very hard to break into for our new league. But those children, and thier children, will grow up with MLS teams around them, and with our own National team which, though they may never win anything, continue to do us proud with their effort and improvement. I for one was surprised to see from my view on the couch how many people in the stands at the US - Mexico match in Houston last month were wearing colors of BOTH nations.
 
 It undeniable, soccer in this country is here to stay.
 
 I can´t seem to help but being long winded. Thanks for being patient, if you actually made it to the end. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_cool.gif">

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:38 pm

Gators:
 
 Dave and Z make some great points. I´ll add one: American media bias.
 
 When have you ever heard any mainstream American sports media outlet even give soccer a chance other than the U.S.´ deep run into the World Cup last year? The U.S. media continually tells Americans that soccer sucks, that it´s boring, that it´s a foreign game.
 
 Unfortunately, when people start hearing those bullshit lies long enough, they start believing them.
 
 I know that from personal experience. I HATED soccer through 1998, as I listened to the media rip it. Well, one afternoon in the summer of 1998, I was flipping through the channels when the World Cup game between England and Argentina was on. I was hooked when Michael Owen went from midfield alone into the goal, blowing past Argentina defenders, to score for England.
 
 That game was frantic, fast and exciting as hell from start to finish. It still remains one of the most exciting sporting events I´ve ever seen on TV.
 
 Anyways, that game piqued my curiosity, and I watched more games, did more research and quickly started to appreciate soccer. By New Year´s 1999, I was head-over-heels in love with soccer. Still am.
 
 I also think soccer is way too fluid and open-ended for many Americans´ tastes and short attention spans.
 
 Think about American football, which I also love. There´s only something like 10 to 12 minutes out of a game when the ball is actually in play. And the formations look pretty similar at the line, especially in the NFL. Nobody´s running the wishbone in the pros.
 
 Think baseball. You have a pitcher and catcher, and players at standard positions in every game.
 
 But in soccer, there are so many different offensive and defensive formations that can be used for success. And there are so many different ways to play the game. Soccer is a game of fluidity, grace, power, skill and incredible subtlety. Americans don´t appreciate subtlety in sports one bit. They want scoring, they want in-your-face action, little tactics and tons of scoring, for the most part.
 
 Just my opinion as a soccer-loving Yank who also digs the NFL.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-06-2003 20:22 ]

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:01 pm

Wow, great replies guys.
 
 Why can´t the MLS attract a player the caliber of Ronaldo? Is it that Real Madrid is just so loaded financially over any of the MLS teams? I bet it is, don´t laugh at the question.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:16 pm

PK;
 
 I agree 100%, but:
 
 <<<Americans don´t appreciate subtlety in sports one bit. They want scoring, they want in-your-face action, little tactics and tons of scoring. . . >>>
 
 I think this is what the media, or David Stern, or somebody, want us to think. To me, there is a very large number of american fans who really do appreciate subtelty and fluidity, even crave it. How many baseball fans do you think want the DH gotten rid of? I bet it´s more than the media would have us believe. (I know I am one <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_mad.gif"> )
 
 I love the NFL too PK, and lemme tell ya people at the stadiums when I go to games absolutely hate all the TV timeouts. Heck, even watching on TV we hate them. It´s all just jammed down our throats, whether we want it or not. For bleeps-sake they keep changing the clock rules, not to shorten the games, but to squeeze in even MORE commercials. And does anybody actually like the stop-and-go of the late stages of a basketball game? Plus, don´t forget that until pretty recently, baseball games rarely took more than 2 hours.
 
 Soccer provides a breath of fresh air in my opinion, one that is sorely needed, and that will prove out in the years to come.
 
 I mean look at you; you´ve abandoned the NBA, and I imagine there are more like you out there. And hey, you´re American!

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:19 pm

Gators;
 
 MLS is like a minnow in the world of soccer my friend. The Metros´ Timmy Howard is close to being sold to Man U for something like 1.5-2 million pounds, which would be a record sale for the MLS. But in Europe, that is small potatoes. Small little tiny, undernourished potatoes. Ronaldo´s transfer fee alone would be more than the entire salary of all the teams in the league, including trainers and office staff (OK I may be exaggerating, but I don´t think by much). And that doesn´t include his salary.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:03 pm

I didn´t know it was that much, wow. That is a huge amount of money. I just don´t find the excitement in the MLS at all. I can´t watch it more than 10 minutes.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:06 pm

Good thread - some really interesting replies (and some even longer and more coherent than my scholarly effort - bet that´s the first time that historians get namechecked in a thread about soccer).
 
 I don´t know a great deal about the MLS - it´s not shown on TV in the UK (not even on NASN, and that shows Arena Football, ffs). I guess that the problems I can see with its structure are to do with the lack of a promotion/relegation structure which keep the seasons interesting for longer, and the somewhat arbitrary nature of the franchise system, whereby teams can be just ´wound up´.
 
 As for US sports, I love the NFL (even after following the Bengals since ´83), like baseball (quite soothing and hypnotic..) and NHL. But basketball leaves me cold - though it is fair to say that I have similar opinions about Aussie Rules, which is the only other sport I can think of with scoring so frequent. Maybe I like my scoring to be less frequent and more meaningful <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Hugo - good point about Tim Howard (is he the keeper with a mild form of Tourette´s syndrome ?). Having said that, other than S***** selling their place kicker to Real Madrid, no one in the EPL has bought anyone. Times are tight !

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:09 pm

As for salaries, last I heard the highest paid player in Europe was Alvaro Recoba, getting £120,000 per WEEK at Inter, for not very much production.
 
 Beckham is rumoured to be on £90k per week, and has had to hand over 50% of his image rights to Real, which is standard for players joining them.
 
 Maybe he´ll have to send his wife out at nights, just to make ends meet..let´s face it, it´d have to be after dark <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:45 pm

I enjoyed the Cameroon- France match this afternoon....Cameroon should have won.....they missed an easy tap in late in the second half.
 
 Henry won the match in the first OT with a golden goal.
 
 Futbol is like sex for me.
 
 You have this incredible build up and then boom...a major climax.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:27 pm

The other attractive thing about soccer for me is that it truly is the world´s game. It´s arguably the only sport -- other than maybe track and field -- that is played in every country on Earth.
 
 And the rules are basically the same wherever you go. It´s not like other international sports like hoops or hockey, where there are international rules, collegiate rules, North American rules, etc.
 
 I can watch a soccer game from England, Turkey, MLS and Australia, and it´s the same game, rules-wise, in all spots. But it´s definitely not the same game at all in terms of playing style.
 
 Basketball and hockey now are hemmed into two styles: North American and European. All Euro teams in both sports are pigeon-holed into one characteristic style of play, for the most part.
 
 That´s not the case in soccer. The English game is played different from the Italian game, which is different from the German game, which is different from the Brazilian game, which is different from the Argentine game, which is different from the Korean game, which is different from the U.S. game. Same rules, different styles. Again, so much subtlety.
 
 Beautiful, baby. Beautiful.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-06-2003 20:31 ]

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:44 am

Funny that this thread comes up now. Believe it or not, just this AM I cracked the cover of this book:
 
 Offside: Soccer and American Exceptionalism
 by Andrei S. Markovits and Steven L. Hellerman
 
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books
 
 It is a VERY scholarly effort focusing on sociology and history in great depth. Looks great so far.
 
 I don´t really have anything to add to the excellent replies, except for this. From my perspective there was a two-part process in my soccer awakening.
 
 1. I had to overcome the prejudice I had inherited from friends and relatives. This was actually easier than I would´ve thought. It only took a single friend whom I respected. His passion for the game was enough to prompt me to re-evaluate things.
 
 2. I had to find a team to care about. This is HUGE and a major reason that MLS has grown fitfully. A neophyte soccer fan simply can´t tolerate a match in which he doesn´t have a stake. If the heart rate doesn´t skyrocket on every cross, the game ain´t gonna do it.
 
 I was lucky to become interested in the game right before the 98 WC. Being of Croatian ancestry I was naturally drawn to their team. Their nascent nationalism and Cinderella performance in the tournament was the perfect recipe for me. Been getting progressively addicted ever since.
 
 I´ll report back with more from the book once I start to digest it better.

bayousooner · Post by **bayousooner** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 am

I am involved in one of the youth soccer programs in my city. I have talked to some of the coaches, who are from other countries, and there was always one common factor. They were all playing on the city streets and were mostly poor. This means soccer is an inner city gamein the rest of the world. America already had an inner city game take off called basketball. Soccer, in this country, is played by the suburban kids who parents are attorneys, doctors, etc. When you see the kids playing the game on the city streets or using a coke can as a ball, soccer will be well estabilished here.
 
 I do say as a joke, but I am also serious, in my organization there are too many attorneys involved and all they do is screw up everything.

JasonC · Post by **JasonC** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:27 pm

I travelled to London on business in early November of ´99. Up until then my only soccer experience was my pathetic attempts at playing as a youth in the ´burbs (I was fat. If the ball got to me I cleared it) and the lone Tampa Bay Mutiny game I attended in ´96 or ´97. I woke up in the middle of the night all jet-lagged and whacked out. Flipping through the channels I found some football match. I have no idea who the teams were, but I figured that this combined with some red wine was a sure cure for insomnia.
 
 How wrong I was. I was simply riveted to the match. I never realized how good this game could be.
 
 Hopefully the MLS will get to that place someday. Keith Olbermann once wrote that soccer and baseball are actually very similar in some ways. Both are seemingly slow, subtle games. You have to really understand both to really enjoy them. It just so happens that Americans are weaned on baseball (for the most part) and everyone else gets soccer.
 
 My recent purchase of WE6 has told me just how little I know about this game. I´m now using TiVo to capture some matches to get a feel for what I´ve been missing. Hopefully it will sink in eventually. I feel like I should really make an effort to understand the most popular sport in the world.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:25 pm

Welcome to the curse of soccer, my North American cousins...once in your blood, you´ll never get it out...
 
 *laughs demonically*
 
 PS - do yourselves a favour and pick a decent team to follow. My two major attempts landed me with Man City (who I´ve seen relegated 5 times in my lifetime, hence the low follicle count) and the Bengals (cool uniforms, at least).
 
 PPS - I need a baseball team...Detroit look quite cool... <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:13 pm

Dave,
 
 With a track record like that in football, you really have to adopt the Cubs as your team. A century of futility would put some off, but I´m sure you could agree with me that it´s just been a rough patch...particularly the last 80 years or so.

stattosoftware · Post by **stattosoftware** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:43 pm

The MLS isn´t a ´failure´, as it is the most stable piece of soccer we have. It can only get better, but I don´t see it becoming huge until they get rid of that single entity crap, which is way too restrictive (but is part of the reason MLS is still around today).
 
 However, MLS isn´t the reason soccer got me interested, I´m also of Croatian descent and as they rumbled into third place in ´98 I watched, and I also watched England, loved Owen, and followed Liverpool.
 
 However ´Pool didn´t get old, but I wasn´t fulfilled, at least not until the ´main game´ on the old Fox Sports Net TV Show was Rushden and Diamonds v Leeds, with Rushden holding them 0-0. Soon I started checking Rushdens standing more than I cared about Liverpool (still do like Owen though).
 
 Once MLS becomes something like this, that´s when we have a league.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:58 pm

Statto:
 
 Great point about allegiance to a club. I became a Newcastle fan in 1999 for about 10 different reasons -- most of which were dumb due to my footie naivete. Now I follow the club with a passion and hopefully a knowledge, at least about the current and recent squads -- I didn´t think was possible.
 
 In fact, the only teams I follow as closely are the Buffalo Bills and Syracuse University football and men´s basketball. And I grew up with those teams, following both since I knew what team sports were in the early 70s.
 
 My zeal for footie has surpassed that of baseball, hockey and the NBA.
 
 It´s just amazing how deep the soccer needle is in my arm after just four or five years. A testament to the splendor of the beautiful game.
 
 Take care,
 PK

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:47 pm

Sf_z
 
 I think you are right, there will need to be a ´Miracle on Ice´ type of thing for soccer to really hit it big here in the States. Maybe also a Gretzky too. And the MLS is indeed far from Major.
 
 However, this said-Miracle is a lot closer now than ever before, thanks in large part to the MLS. It is clear that as lame as the league has been over the years in terms of competitiveness and consistency, it has immeasurably helped the national team program. I like to think of it as a developmental league for our national team. Thanks to the commitment of the Big 3 investors (really the Big 2, and then Kraft), we are becoming more competitive internationally. It is taking time, but I think the progress of our football over the last 10 years is pretty remarkable, when you consider how short 10 years is. We have an incredibly long way to go, but I like to believe that the Big 2 will never give up.
 
 I am hopeful that the HDC will help to convince potential investors that an MLS club with control of it´s own venue is not a complete disaster, but can actally do pretty well. New cities, new sites for teams (will expand by 2 in 2 years), new facilities for existing teams (at least Dallas and maybe Metros) are all slow but sure movements towards a non-single entitiy structure. But until there is real money in the sport in the US, the single-entity will have to stay. NASL died a long and horrible death, and the Big 2 do not want to live through a repeat of that. To me, as long as the play on the field continues to improve, the single-entity is a minor issue. The league is serving it´s purpose, even as a single-entity.