Yet another HDTV question

[pk500]

You know after all this HD and Plasma talk I got to thinking why Sony who at one time had the best CRT's (Trinitron) never got into doing plasma HDTV's? I find that somewhat odd.

Good point. I think there are only three plasma brands left: LG, Panasonic and Samsung.

[wco81]

They were doing plasmas for awhile.

They also invested in a lot of other tech like LCOS and high-end projectors. Not to mention future tech like OLED.

But a company like Panasonic concentrated on plasmas.

Meanwhile the margins on flat screens plunged so only Samsung seems to have its toes in several pools -- plasma, LCD and OLED.

[DChaps]

I may be the last DSP member to not have an HDTV, but I am thinking about rectifying that as a Christmas present to myself. This TV will be in the basement with about an 8 ft. distance from couch to screen. Not much issue with daylight and the little issue there could be is easily controlled with blinds. It will be mainly used for gaming (360,Wii, and maybe PC), movies, as well as watching racing, football, and hockey. I currently do not have digital cable, but I assume I will have to upgrade. I am trying to spend less than $1000 total, and that includes monitor stand, tax, cables, etc. After some initial research, I had determined that for my setup and viewing preferences I would get the most bang for my buck from plasma. I am currently looking at the Samsung PN50C550 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV. It was rated a consumer reports best buy and I have found it for as little as $799 which seems pretty good for a 50in 1080p. It does not have the bells and whistles of built in internet, etc. but I really do not need that. Anyone have any experience with this model and or have better recommendations? Thanks!

[Rodster]

I think the Sammy Plasmas look gorgeous both picture wise and aesthetically. Best Buy has lots of Samsung Plasmas.

[pk500]

I may be the last DSP member to not have an HDTV, but I am thinking about rectifying that as a Christmas present to myself. This TV will be in the basement with about an 8 ft. distance from couch to screen. Not much issue with daylight and the little issue there could be is easily controlled with blinds. It will be mainly used for gaming (360,Wii, and maybe PC), movies, as well as watching racing, football, and hockey. I currently do not have digital cable, but I assume I will have to upgrade. I am trying to spend less than $1000 total, and that includes monitor stand, tax, cables, etc. After some initial research, I had determined that for my setup and viewing preferences I would get the most bang for my buck from plasma. I am currently looking at the Samsung PN50C550 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV. It was rated a consumer reports best buy and I have found it for as little as $799 which seems pretty good for a 50in 1080p. It does not have the bells and whistles of built in internet, etc. but I really do not need that. Anyone have any experience with this model and or have better recommendations? Thanks!

That's a really nice set, Don. I have a Panasonic plasma, but I looked hard at the Sammy's, too.

Good call on 1080p, especially at an 8-foot viewing distance. You'll need to upgrade to digital cable to get HD channels.

You'll dig your new set.

One final tip: Don't let the salesman at Best Buy or wherever you buy your set con you into buying Monster cables or some expensive HDMI cable for $40-50. Get your HDMI cable for $5-10 from www.monoprice.com. It's the same damn thing as a Monster cable. You also can get quality wall mount systems for your set for very little coin from Monoprice. Great service, fast shipping, too.

Good luck!

[Danimal]

I'm not big on the Plasma sets but that is personal preference. But I swear by Sammy's, I have 3 sets all LCD and 2 monitors for my computers. I love their stuff.

[DChaps]

Well after doing more research on this particular Samsung Plasma, I am now worried that it is not the HDTV I am looking for. According to many of the users reviews on Amazon and AVS forums, there is a buzzing with this TV even when it is off. However, the main reason I am still looking for something else is due to the overwhelming complaints of image retention and burn-in. I know this was originally an issue with plasmas, but I thought it was resolved.

Paul, what model Panasonic did you get and have you had any image retention issues?
Danimal, what model Samsung LCD's do you have? Are any greater than 46 in but less than $1000?

Thanks again for the advice.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN50C550- ... ewpoints=0

My single complaint is image retention. Even after a long break-in period, this TV still has a problem with image retention. Any time a bright object is on the screen for more than 30 seconds it will leave a noticeable ghost for several minutes. I generally keep my screen settings on very bright, which probably exaggerates the problem, but it's still very annoying to be afraid to leave any menus on screen while I go grab a drink. There is never any lasting damage, but it's always a good scare.

The ONE caveat I have with this television is image retention. This is inherent with any plasma, not just Samsung. I sometimes will leave a PS3 game on pause, or watch the same channel with logos on the corner of the screen for hours on end. This can leave a retained image on portions of the screen, which eventually goes away. It is most noticeable when watching a dark movie. If you are an avid gamer or you have kids who are not mindful of the inherent issues with plasmas then I suggest an LCD. Make sure you turn the letter box to gray and be mindful not to leave stuff on pause. Also make sure not to turn off the pixel shift, ever.

This was a great TV till I got burn in on the screen because a family member pressed the wrong button on the remote. YES, it was THAT easy.

This is a warning to shoppers. If you change, accidentally, the screen size to "Screen Fit" this will turn off the only protection against burn-in this TV has called "Pixel Shift."Pixel Shift works great when ON but I got burn in after only 10 minutes of my nephew playing a video game. He accidentally changed the Picture Size on the remote to "Screen Fit" and Samsung decided to have that mode turn off the ONLY Burn in protection this TV has. WHY? I dont know maybe its a prank?

I love the picture quality and it's definitely a great value. If there is any complaint I have it's the fact that there is a lot of image retention and it happens often. I use the guide feature of my cable company and if I have it on for more than thirty seconds and then turn it off, the outline of the box at the bottom of the screen and any text will be visible as a kind of shadow for a few minutes after the guide is turned off. It then goes away, and I've read that it doesn't cause any real damage but it's annoying. I also get the same image retention when watching either wide screen shows with black bars on top and bottom; and also when I'm watching 4:3 programs with bars on the left and right of the screen. There is always an after image when I then watch programing which covers the whole screen. Again, probably not a big deal but I haven't seen a single review mention this phenomenon, and until I purchased my TV I did not know anything about it. Would this have stopped me from buying? No, the picture is great, and I'd buy the TV again, but if your thinking about buying this TV it's only fair that you know about this.

Also, among the very first paragraphs in the manual are statements that Samsung does not warranty any burn in to the picture. The image retention I'm talking about is not 'Burn in'. According to the manual 'Burn in' happens if you leave a static image on the screen for a "prolonged period of time" however they don't tell you what a "prolonged period of time" is. That's just ridiculous.

I am extremely picky when it comes to picture quality. I am a previous owner of two Panasonic plasmas and hesitantly bought this product based on reviews. I will have to say that there was no buzzing problem, which this set is notorious for. However, the post break-in picture suffered from these problems:

1. Frequent and noticeable image retention. For whatever reason, on a Samsung, the images stick around for a while. They do go away, but not as fast as you would expect.

2. Noticeable horizontal line bleed. Even with the included magnets on the power cords, there are noticeable horizontal bands across the screen during brighter scenes. They are always there, and apparently are a part of the technology and are on all Samsung plasmas. Look up the term.

3. What I describe as a slight blurring effect. I don't know if these are phosphor trails or what, but especially in dark scenes with faces, there is a slight blurring effect that can be very irritating. The only reason I noticed it is because I had never seen it in my Panasonic.

Despite the recent controversy over rising black levels, I bought the Panasonic G25/G20Panasonic VIERA TC-P50G25 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV anyways, and can say that all of the above problems are not evident whatsoever. Black levels out of the box blew the Samsung out of the water. The screen actually looks black!

[Rodster]

Don check out this LCD/HDTV on sale at Newegg.com for $459 with free shipping it's a 42" 1080P, 120Hz with 4.5ms refresh rate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... ree%20hdtv

[HipE]

DChaps, I know PK has posted about the Panasonic P50S2 previously. It is the Panasonic model that would be the equivalent of the Samsung you are looking at. It is actually on sale at Amazon for $749 right now with free shipping, which is the lowest they have ever sold it for. They also have a 14 day price match guarantee, as well as free return shipping for 30 days if you are unsatisfied (they'll even come to your house to pick it up). I don't have any experience with this model and I'm not trying to promote it or anything, just passing along the info.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-P50S ... 200&sr=8-1

[pk500]

Don:

I bought a Panasonic TC-P50X1. Panasonic no longer manufacturers it, as it is either a 2008 or 2009 model.

Only a f*cking moron would complain about image retention on a plasma set after leaving a video game on pause for hours on end or leaving a channel with a constant ticker, like CNBC or ESPN News, on for hours at a time during the break-in period. And the person who left that complaint on the forum is beyond a moron. We're talking serious numbskull.

I've NEVER had a problem with image retention with my Panny plasma. I was careful during the break-in period. But anyone idiotic enough to leave a static image on a plasma screen for hours during break-in deserves to have image burn-in. They should be penalized for their stupidity.

Darwinism rules with plasma TV's. If you're smart, you'll have no problem and have a wonderful TV. If you're leery about the Sammy's, take a look at the Panny's.

[greggsand]

I 2nd PK's post. I've had 2 panny plasmas & had no problems at all (and I play my share of games & have the espn ticker running A LOT). I don't really get into the plasma vs lcd vs led battle. An HD image looks great on all 3. I'd just recommend sticking to one of the major brands vs some brand you've never heard of just to save a couple bucks.

[DChaps]

It is the Panasonic model that would be the equivalent of the Samsung you are looking at. It is actually on sale at Amazon for $749 right now with free shipping, which is the lowest they have ever sold it for. They also have a 14 day price match guarantee, as well as free return shipping for 30 days if you are unsatisfied (they'll even come to your house to pick it up). I don't have any experience with this model and I'm not trying to promote it or anything, just passing along the info.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-P50S ... 200&sr=8-1

Wow, that really must have been a great deal. When I first clicked on that link, there were a bunch available from Amazon at that price. Now there is only 5 showing for $923 from some company called Paul's TV. Coincidence?

That's what i get for over thinking my decision. I went back to the store where they had the Samsung for $799, but they are now sold out too. The 58" Samsung (PN58C550) sure looked good though. It is out of my price range at $1199, but not by much. The Panasonic 50" 720p Plasma HDTV (TCP50C2) looked surprisingly good and was only $599, but everyone keeps telling me not to go 720p.

[greggsand]

It is the Panasonic model that would be the equivalent of the Samsung you are looking at. It is actually on sale at Amazon for $749 right now with free shipping, which is the lowest they have ever sold it for. They also have a 14 day price match guarantee, as well as free return shipping for 30 days if you are unsatisfied (they'll even come to your house to pick it up). I don't have any experience with this model and I'm not trying to promote it or anything, just passing along the info.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-P50S ... 200&sr=8-1

Wow, that really must have been a great deal. When I first clicked on that link, there were a bunch available from Amazon at that price. Now there is only 5 showing for $923 from some company called Paul's TV. Coincidence?

That's what i get for over thinking my decision. I went back to the store where they had the Samsung for $799, but they are now sold out too. The 58" Samsung (PN58C550) sure looked good though. It is out of my price range at $1199, but not by much. The Panasonic 50" 720p Plasma HDTV (TCP50C2) looked surprisingly good and was only $599, but everyone keeps telling me not to go 720p.

Depending on your viewing distance, you'd never be able to tell the diff between 1080p & 720p. IMO, most people would fail the "pepsi challenge" when it comes to 720/1080(me included).

[XXXIV]

I cant really tell the difference between my 720 or 1080's unless Im watching a blu ray....It does matter if you are watching them.

[pk500]

Also realize that the entire family of ESPN networks and SPEED broadcast in native 720p. So if you watch a steady diet of those channels, you're not going to see the difference between a 720p and 1080p set.

Gregg is right: Viewing distance is the key. If you're watching from 5 feet away, then you will notice the difference between 720p and 1080p. If you're watching from 8-10 feet or greater, you'll have to be a hell a videophile if you can tell the difference when watching broadcast signals.

The two biggest differences in the quality of an HDTV picture are source and transmission medium.

As WCO has said, some networks have better HD signals than others. I know this sounds odd, but the Cooking Channel, Weather Channel and Discovery family of channels simply jump from my screen. They're incredibly vivid and crisp. NBC's HD NFL games look more crisp than any other network. And some lower-level races and games just don't have the same quality of HD camera and production equipment as major events, and you notice the difference.

Transmission medium also makes a big difference. Satellite delivers the best HD signal because it's not compressed. Every cable system must compress its HD signal to fit it in its available pipe, along with other services such as digital phone and broadband Internet. It's cheaper for cable systems to compress the signal than invest in building a wider pipe.

[Zeppo]

I have an older panasonic plasma, just so you know. My understanding is that the Sammy plasmas have much worse image retention than the panasonics, and that the newer pannnys have almost zero image retention. It was a big bug up the ass of panny customers early on, and they've been aggressive in addressing it.

As to the 1080p vs 720p debate: most people don't realize that there are other factors that often have a larger impact on image quality than resolution. Overall contrast, color rendition and accuracy, and original signal quality are actually more important to image quality than simple resolution, especially once you get over the threshold of 720p for the proper size-to-viewing distance ratio.

As XXXIV mentions, you may well see a difference between 720p and 1080p from blurays at close enough viewing distances. However, most cable DVRs and of course direcTV utilize such extreme compression that the original signal quality that is being sent to the TV will be far more limiting to the image quality than the resolution of the display.


So don't get too hung up on 1080p vs 720p. Look more at the overall black to white contrast (and don't trust the numbers the manufacturers give because there are no industry-wide standards) and the quality of the blacks especially in dark scenes. Look at how the display handles fast camera movement or sports action i.e. look for motion blur which is often prevalent in LCDs but simply non existent in plasmas. Look at the colors and try to read up at independent sites about the accuracy of color rendition for the TVs you are choosing from.

A 1080p TV could look terrible if it has poor colors, washed out blacks, and lots of motion blur or poor image scaling (every display has to deal with a variety of source resolutions). A 720p seen from a reasonable viewing distance can look very very good in comparison if it wins out on those factors.

The best thing you can do is get it from a retailer you can return it to, because there is no better way than to audition any display in the real environment you will be using it in. I went through 2 other units from my nearby circuit city before settling on the panny plasma I have now and I'm very very happy with it despite image retention issues (mostly from EA logos and the network bugs on NFL games and such) but they vanish after a while and I only see those over white fields, never on black, and as I said the newer pannys are much better in this regard.

[DChaps]

Thanks for the additional info Zeppo, I think after further review I am going with the Panasonic TC-P50S2 as mentioned above. It looks like it is on sales for $749 from Walmart online with free shipping.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Panasonic-TC- ... 4711122#rr

[Brando70]

Also, it is impossible to get "burn in" in 10 minutes. Temporary ghosting is possible but you can't permanently damage a plasma in 10 minutes.

I own two Panny plasmas (2005 and 2009 models) and have gamed a lot on both. Early on, you will see some image retention, especially from games like EA Sports where the ticker and white logo are on the screen a lot. However, I can only think of one time when I actually saw image retention during a program -- an EA logo on a pure-white snow scene, and that was only very early in the life of the 2005 set. It went away, and as plasmas get older, they get very hearty.

If I turn the lights off and have the set on but with no input, I can sometimes see some ghosting, but that is normal. A lot of morons will try to call that burn-in but don't worry about it. Just break the set in the first couple hundred hours and you'll be good.

Enjoy!

[dbdynsty25]

If you or anyone else has any sort of question just buy a damn LCD...burn in is beating a dead horse. It happens on plasmas more than LCDs...that's all there is to it. That said, I've got three LCDs and one plasma...don't see burn in on any of em. The debate is really silly at this point.

[pk500]

If you or anyone else has any sort of question just buy a damn LCD...burn in is beating a dead horse. It happens on plasmas more than LCDs...that's all there is to it. That said, I've got three LCDs and one plasma...don't see burn in on any of em. The debate is really silly at this point.

Spot on. I paid close attention to detail during break-in, and I've had ZERO burn-in issues with my Panny plasma.

Enjoy your new set, Don! Looks like a beauty.

Highly recommend searching the AVS Forum for various picture settings from videophiles. Really helps the colors pop and the picture sharpen. The factory settings aren't that great.

[Rodster]

DChaps I don't know if you bought your TV yet but Newegg sent out a flier on a 60" LG LCD HDTV for $1299 with free shipping, Reg price is $2699.

[pk500]

DChaps I don't know if you bought your TV yet but Newegg sent out a flier on a 60" LG LCD HDTV for $1299 with free shipping, Reg price is $2699.

That's $550 more than what he paid. Nearly double the price of the 50-inch Panny plasma he just purchased.

How is this a bargain?

[Rodster]

I didn't know he purchased it already.

[skinsfan]

Also realize that the entire family of ESPN networks and SPEED broadcast in native 720p. So if you watch a steady diet of those channels, you're not going to see the difference between a 720p and 1080p set.

Gregg is right: Viewing distance is the key. If you're watching from 5 feet away, then you will notice the difference between 720p and 1080p. If you're watching from 8-10 feet or greater, you'll have to be a hell a videophile if you can tell the difference when watching broadcast signals.

The two biggest differences in the quality of an HDTV picture are source and transmission medium.

As WCO has said, some networks have better HD signals than others. I know this sounds odd, but the Cooking Channel, Weather Channel and Discovery family of channels simply jump from my screen. They're incredibly vivid and crisp. NBC's HD NFL games look more crisp than any other network. And some lower-level races and games just don't have the same quality of HD camera and production equipment as major events, and you notice the difference.

Transmission medium also makes a big difference. Satellite delivers the best HD signal because it's not compressed. Every cable system must compress its HD signal to fit it in its available pipe, along with other services such as digital phone and broadband Internet. It's cheaper for cable systems to compress the signal than invest in building a wider pipe.

Satellite also compresses HD,aka HD-Lite.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Lite
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... to/4270702

As they launch more birds,they will add bandwidth,much as cable cos are freeing up space by eliminating analog signal altogether.

[pk500]

Thanks for the schooling, Skins!