I have to say MotoGP 2 is my favorite racing game of all tim

bdt92 · Post by **bdt92** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:34 pm

I never bought MotoGP but did play a lot of it online thanks to the demo for Xbox Live.
 
 To me, MotoGP 2 is the best racing game I´ve ever played. I´m not much of a racing game fan, sure I like racing games, but I don´t cream over them. I usually prefer more arcade style pick up and play racing games that I don´t have to mess with tuning my car or worrying about the right settings. This is the first game I actually have really gotten into that aspect of a racing game.
 
 The career mode is top notch. The online play is flawless. Being able to customize your bike and create logos is cool as hell. The challenges are tough but they really motivate you to figure out how to complete them instead of aggravating the hell out of you. There´s 16 tracks. It supports custom soundtracks ( a new must for racing games). The videos you unlock are also cool as hell. A really, really solid package.
 
 I know it´s not the most realistic racing game but damn if it doesn´t have it all. Your thoughts?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:51 pm

Big Damn T, you mofo:
 
 No argument from me, dude.
 
 Moto GP 2 is incredible, for every aspect you mentioned. It would be a killer game if it was offline only, but the addition of online play lifts this title into the stratosphere.
 
 This might be a stretch to some, but I would put Moto GP 2 up with Halo and Splinter Cell as absolutely vital titles for any Xbox owner. Yep, it´s that good.
 
 The only racing games that have thrilled me like Moto GP 2 are Pole Position for the Atari 2600, Gran Turismo for the PSX, F355 for the Dreamcast and World of Outlaws 2002 for the PS2.
 
 Right now, I would put Moto GP 2 neck and neck with F355 for the DC as my favorite racing game of all time. But the online play and deeper career mode probably push Moto GP 2 over the top.
 
 See you on the circuits!
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 11-06-2003 19:52 ]

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:52 pm

This is the only game I have been playing lately. Its a true blast! I love the career mode,I really have nothing bad to say about this game.

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:39 am

Any advice for the racing impaired?
 
 The only thing dragging down my enjoyment of this game (and thus the total play time I devote to it) is my poor performance against others online.
 
 I played a bit of the MotoGP demo online, and started to get good enough to at least challenge for an occasional win, but GP2 seems to have a more demanding physics model.
 
 Not sure if it´s the bikes (I´ve yet to unlock or build a real winner) or my aging reflexes, but I just can´t seem to get in the zone wit this one...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:57 am

Jack-diggity:
 
 If you like Moto GP 2 offline, you´ll pop your titanium rivets once you play it online, my brother. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> It is off the f*cking hook!
 
 Can´t wait to race you online. You doing well? I´ll call you sometime in the next few days.
 
 Take care,
 PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:36 pm

What sim settings are you guys using for the career mode?

Kruza · Post by **Kruza** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:23 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-06-12 09:36, DChaps wrote:
 What sim settings are you guys using for the career mode?
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 
 Mine is set to 100% Sim mode -- a combination of 100% Off-Road, 100% Handling, and 100% Collision Sim settings.
 
 Kruza

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:36 pm

Well, as a Father´s day gift, my wife & kids bought me Moto GP2.
 
 So I´ve spent a few hours with it, exploring what´s changed since the first one.
 
 Thus far, even though I´m sure this will get me flamed into bacon, I´m fairly in agreement with the overall CONCLUSION to the IGN review that pk hates so much.
 
 Note that I´m not saying I am in agreement with the IGN review in full, or even registering any opinion as to whether enough time was spent with the game.
 
 I think 8.9 is about what I would´ve given it on the IGN ranking. No, I don´t think it´s the best racing game of all time, and no, I don´t agree it´s a "MUST HAVE" for every XBox owner in the same way that Halo was. I think that´s taking racin´ love to an extreme <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">.
 
 Now, on the other hand, were this cars rather than motorcycles, I´d say it would be closer to a must-have title, simply because the overall package is extremely high quality, and I believe the evidence shows to more people relating to cars than motorcycles when it comes to racing.
 
 Paul´s points about it being unfair to knock the game for being ´only an evolution´ of the previous games is fair to an extent. However, I think it´s equally fair to criticize Madden and other sports titles for not being revolutionary either, and perhaps there is some hypocrisy there on the part of those reviewers who review racing games by some other standard than they do stick ´n ball games.
 
 I believe that much of this stems from the relative importance of the personalities and teams that make up the sport than the actual quality of the re-creation of the sport. Does anyone think that Madden 2003 was in any way a quantum leap of Madden 2002 or 2001? I don´t. Just as I don´t feel MotoGP2 is any kind of leap over Moto GP. However, for sports like American football, the updated rosters are more important than additional entries in the playbook. More fans are interested in their football heroes for a game experience than are interested in their racing heroes for a motorcycle game. In the football game, player ratings are darn important, hence franchise modes, etc.
 
 Here, the only rating that really matters over time is the specs of the bike, the machine. I don´t think that encourages the kind of fandom you see in an NFL title over player ratings. Is MotoGP a better game because they keep the rider rosters accurate? Not for those who aren´t glued to Speed TV. For the same masses who you might say buy Halo as a must-have for the XBox (since you use that as an example of an XBox "Must Have"), do the changes in the gameplay really add up to a worthwhile upgrade? I´d argue that they don´t.
 
 I believe MotoGP is an incredibly good racing title that nonetheless will suffer sales figures that show it doesn´t really expand much beyond the "racing fan niche". Certainly having exposure on the XBox Live starter disc and being able to race 16 players on Live makes a good argument, but that argument lasts only as long as it´s the only such racer in town on the XBox. Once we get to the point where people are racing a pack of online opponents in a NASCAR or F1 field, even the people racing MotoGP now will, I predict, flee the game fast.
 
 I *personally* feel the game is a must-have for ME, because I´m a racing nut and it is realistic enough and offers the great online play that *I* want. But to suggest that it belongs in the stratosphere that Halo is in for XBox owners at large, Paul....um....as Dr. Evil might say....RRRRRrrrrrrright.
 
 Now moving onto MY opinion of the game, versus what I think the average XBox Halo-praisin´ owner might think.
 
 I think one of the few criticisms I can level at MotoGP2 is that the original was already so good, it made the sequel a tougher sell as an upgrade. I do believe if you like racing titles and you own an XBox, you should have either one of the MotoGP titles. If you´re an online racing nut, you want the sequel.
 
 You all have praised the thing six ways from Monday, and I agree with most of the praise, so instead of just agreeing with you on everything, I´ll shorten this already-long post with the things I found disappointing:
 
 - No persistent online series mode with passwords, etc. I´d have loved to be able to create a league with people I like to race with and run one long race per week, with full sim settings, damage, etc...Instead of having to do it all in a single session and lose the results, making long races unfeasable unless everyone has the next 24 hours straight to do nothing but race <G>
 
 I´d have liked to see an end to the flypaper one inch off the pavement on track-out. Sorry, but that just really messes up the whole "use every inch of the track" aspect.
 
 would be nice to have been able to opt out of motion blur. Okay, it looks cool...It´s also wayyyy overdone, and wrecks realism in many ways.
 
 Would be nice if the rear and front suspension settings didn´t have the same bloody help description. Why should I change the front rather than the back, or visa versa?
 
 Would be nice if the bike would throw you off when you overdo throttle application exiting a slow corner. It pains me to say it, but Namco on the PS2 got this right in even their FIRST MotoGP, let alone their 3rd, while MotoGP2 on the XBox goes to great pains to keep you on the bike no matter how reckless you are with the throttle (check the MotoGp2 manual...note how they talk about how the bike will throw you if you add a fraction too much throttle...but oddly, not in the game the manual describes).
 
 To sum up, in some important areas, even with the sim slider maxxed out, the game sells you on realism until you hit the edge of the envelope, then it sells you on arcade. Maybe that´s a good default, but I hate that I´m STUCK in it.
 
 All this having been said, I love the game as I did the original. Obviously it´s an improvement, but not all I was hoping would be there. I would have LOVED to join an online league that would be persisted to a server from week to week with a points table, etc and a consistent bunch of people I could practice and race with every week.
 
 So....what I´d like to see is how many people on this board we can get together for weekly MotoGP races with realism set to the max, the races set to half-to-full distances, and we´ll just keep the points tables offline.
 
 I may get flamed for not having the same level of religion over the title as some of you guys have, but that doesn´t mean I don´t really enjoy playing the game anyway. Right now, PK is the only one from here on my friends list for me to work on his times. I´d like to get some more of you guys´ gamer tags so I can work on beating your times til we go head to head online <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:59 pm

>>>But to suggest that it belongs in the stratosphere that Halo is in for XBox owners at large, Paul....um....as Dr. Evil might say....RRRRRrrrrrrright.<<<
 
 Hmm ... let´s see. It can´t be a must-have game because it´s a motorcycle racing title or because it´s not that good?
 
 If you think it´s not a must-have title because it doesn´t match the quality of Halo or Splinter Cell in their respective genres, fine. Fair enough.
 
 But if you think it´s not a must-have title because it´s a motorcycle racing game, that´s a pretty narrow-minded approach.
 
 Does everyone love Halo because it´s sci-fi? I doubt it. I HATE sci-fi -- in fact, I have no idea who this Dr. Evil is to whom you refer -- so I shouldn´t like Halo. But I love Halo because it transcends sci-fi in my eyes. Great gameplay, great story, great graphics, etc.
 
 I think Moto GP 2 falls into that category. Great gameplay. Great graphics. Great online play.
 
 I highly doubt that everyone who loves Moto GP and Moto GP 2 like I do really digs motorcycle racing. I didn´t follow it at all before I got these games, for example. But most Moto GP 2 devotees know a damn good game when they see it, both offline or online. And Moto GP 2 is a damn good game.
 
 Basically, if a new Xbox owner asked me what one Xbox sports game I would recommend, I would say Moto GP 2. I think the pure fun and online competition aspect of it transcend sports boundaries.
 
 That´s my opinion, in the proverbial nutshell.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 15-06-2003 20:00 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:29 am

<< Hmm ... let´s see. It can´t be a must-have game because it´s a motorcycle racing title or because it´s not that good? >>
 
 Both. It´s good...very good...quite fine...but I don´t share your opinion that it can be compared to Halo in overall quality. It needs another version and a bunch of better features.
 
 (Sidebar: the training mode sucks and is a good demonstration of why MotoGP isn´t like Gran Turismo 3 when it comes to mass market appeal. Any normal human being forced to go through the slalom test would soon smash the controller in anger. Having the ´trial and error´ approach, with a simple pass/fail -- and no margin for error -- as opposed to a medal system like in other racing training modes, and darn little in the way of information about how to attack it, means nothing but frustration for most people. I was at about my limit and I´ve got a lot more patience for this sort of thing than most -- and yes I did finally pass it, but I felt no particular ´buzz´ from so doing -- just mild relief that the stupid thing was done..
 
 >>If you think it´s not a must-have title because it doesn´t match the quality of Halo or Splinter Cell in their respective genres, fine. Fair enough. >>
 
 I´d say if Halo were worth, say a 9.7, MotoGP would be at best an 8.8. On sheer quality, totally aside from genre. But getting into the 9´s is doable if they finish the job. It´ll never bust into the mainstream Gran Turismo style with its current feature set though.
 
 >> But if you think it´s not a must-have title because it´s a motorcycle racing game, that´s a pretty narrow-minded approach. >>
 
 Perhaps our disagreement is on definitions. Please define "must-have" title. Let me suggest to you something that illustrates MY definition of "Must-have". Let´s say I came out with the world´s greatest Chess program on the XBox. Complete with XBox live support, a database with every game ever played, tons of analysis features -- e.g. think Chessmaster, but better in every way. Okay, so no one can argue that it´s not one of the finest Chess games ever made. So -- is it now a "must-have" XBox title because it´s just such a dang fine chess game? If you don´t like strategy games, and chess in particular, and don´t buy it, can I respond by accusing you of being narrow minded? Can I then continue to tell the world at large that hey, there are three must-have titles for the Xbox: Halo, Splinter Cell, and SuperChess?
 
 Narrow minded? Maybe. Or perhaps I just see the world as it is, not as I would have it be.
 
 >> Does everyone love Halo because it´s sci-fi? I doubt it. I HATE sci-fi -- in fact, I have no idea who this Dr. Evil is to whom you refer -- so I shouldn´t like Halo. But I love Halo because it transcends sci-fi in my eyes. Great gameplay, great story, great graphics, etc. >>
 
 e.g. it has oodles and oodles of mass-market appeal. It´s what I call a "genre-buster". The Tony Hawk series is another example of a genre-buster. All too many people who couldn´t give a fig about skateboarding are Tony Hawk addicts. That´s a genre buster. Is MotoGP a genre buster? Not ... even ... close.
 
 >> I think Moto GP 2 falls into that category. Great gameplay. Great graphics. Great online play. >>
 
 And one heckuva steep learning curve. Here´s something I´ve discovered in my years of dealing with racing sims: the average joe doesn´t want to actually LEARN a track, esp not the hard way. They don´t want to have to brake and turn before they can even SEE the turn (motion blur factor makes this even worse). Here is perhaps the ultimate proof of the pudding for you. I don´t know if you have access to these kinds of #´s -- but I´ll dig and see if I can find them.
 
 What % of XBox Live subscribers went out and bought a copy of MotoGP? After all, it´s free on the disc. Anyone could play live immediately, and the look/feel/gameplay have not changed perceptibly for the average user. So if it´s a "Must-have" kinda game, the sales figures will undoubtedly reflect that, since everyone got to sample that online goodness, right? If it´s truly a genre-buster, then, reviews or not, all those XBox live subscribers that got to try it for themselves should have rushed out to buy a copy of the game. Has it happened? Does it show any signs of happening?
 
 Whose side are the actual sales figures for the MotoGP games on? Mine? Or yours?
 
 I´m the first one who goes to bed each night wishing that the world could see racing sims as I do and make them more popular. But only a few with any kind of sim pedigree (the gran turismo series for example) have actually broken into Tony-Hawk-style-numbers. That´s reality. We can argue and fuss about WHY all day long, but at the end of the day, if the market decides, after trying the demos, the XBox Live sampler, etc, that this is NOT a must-have game, I don´t know where you get that it somehow *IS*.
 
 >> I highly doubt that everyone who loves Moto GP and Moto GP 2 like I do really digs motorcycle racing. I didn´t follow it at all before I got these games, for example. But most Moto GP 2 devotees know a damn good game when they see it, both offline or online. And Moto GP 2 is a damn good game. >>
 
 Yeah, and I got into F1 because of World Circuit and into IndyCar because of Papyrus and into Rally games because of Colin McRae. That´s truth. I´m not being a wiseass. I know exactly where you´re coming from when you say that. There is always the potential to convert some people who try it. But not on anywhere near the scale of Halo. I think you´re dreaming if you think that you can sit any statistically significant sample of ordinary gamers in front of demos of Halo and MotoGP an have them decide that both are MUST HAVE games. In most cases, the consumer looking at the two will ask you if you can´t get Halo running on the box that MotoGP is on so they can play multiplayer Halo....MotoGP will collect dust, or be maybe a "change of pace" title that they would pick up if they have the cash and nothing better is out.
 
 >> Basically, if a new Xbox owner asked me what one Xbox sports game I would recommend, I would say Moto GP 2. >>
 
 Then I believe you are doing your friend a disservice. My response to that person would be "What´s your favorite sport"? *THEN* I´d try to answer his question.
 
 >> I think the pure fun and online competition aspect of it transcend sports boundaries. >>
 
 I think that it IS pure fun and great online competition, too. No disagreement there. But what evidence can you give me that MotoGP has transcended the boundaries and joined Tony Hawk and Halo as "genre-busters"? Anything objective? Or just that you THINK it should because YOU like the game so much?
 
 >> That´s my opinion, in the proverbial nutshell.
 
 FWIW, I agree with much of your opinion about MotoGP. I love playing it (and by the way, I just knocked off your South Africa best time....you´ll have to put me down a peg <G>).
 
 But saying that we as racing fans think this is a doggone good game and a racing title worth having for the XBox, and that it somehow belongs in the company of Halo and Tony Hawk as genre-busters....well, I wouldn´t put any bets on the sales figures demonstrating that many people agree with you there.
 
 I bet MotoGP will do better overseas than here, though, simply because the rest of the world understands racing better than your typical NASCAR-lovin´ oval racin´ ´merican.
 
 Randy
 
 P.S. Maybe I´m just cynical, but I´ve had so many phone conversations with product managers at EA, Papyrus, Dynamix, etc. that were so depressing I wanted to smash the phone. I often wondered after talking to these guys: "If the market outlook is so bleak for this racing game, why do you even bother coming to work every day to MAKE it?!"

Kruza · Post by **Kruza** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:58 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-06-15 18:36, RandyM wrote:
 
 To sum up, in some important areas, even with the sim slider maxxed out, the game sells you on realism until you hit the edge of the envelope, then it sells you on arcade. Maybe that´s a good default, but I hate that I´m STUCK in it.</BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 
 I mostly agree with this. MotoGP 2 is meant to appeal to the casual racing crowd, no doubt about it. Especially with how much powersliding is encouraged in this game.
 
 I somewhat disagree on throttle application bit. What you say is apparently true while racing on dry roads, and I agree it should be made more of a factor in these instances than it really is in MotoGP 2. However, there does exist a simulation aspect of throttle application in the game. Try racing on wet roads with hard or medium tires, and you´ll really notice the difference in how much pressure you apply on the gas in certain areas in order to stay on the bike. If you´re not careful at a few undulating bends like the Spoon at Suzuka or the high-speed right-hander before the long straight at Jerez (among other corners), you´ll low-side right off the bike if you push the bike too much.
 
 Kruza [ This message was edited by: Kruza on 01-07-2003 11:38 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:14 pm

Yeah, you´re right about that. I did notice that a good way to toss yourself off the bike is to be working the front brake and over do it on the throttle. ...but it was rare that throttle alone would spill you.
 
 I also hate the AI bikes in the game. They ram into you and spill you regularly with the Sim mode turned up. (much like online opponents do! <G>).
 
 We need to get a serious league going ,man. I´ll add you to my friends list.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:23 pm

Among guys who frequent this board, Kruza and BBReBozo are mad-fast. I´m five seconds or slower than them on some tracks.
 
 Those dudes know their Moto GP2 sh*t!
 
 Take care,
 PK

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:25 pm

PK, in the meantime, I´ll be aiming at a slightly easier mark: yours <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">.
 
 I may never find 5 more seconds to be up the rare air of those guys, but maybe you and I have comparable talent and we can get some good competitive racing in.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:35 pm

Randy:
 
 Your loss, then. I always figured you as a guy who would set the bar high, not in the middle.
 
 My goal -- attainable or not! -- is to try to get in the same stratosphere as Kruza and BB, not stay ahead of you. Might as well aim big. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 But there´s little question you´ll surpass me. I´m spending less and less time with games these days. Lots of reading to catch up on, actually some decent stuff on TV for a change, and the long days give more daylight for outdoor play with family, etc.
 
 I don´t know why, but flicking on the console isn´t floating my boat lately like it did in late May. Probably just a rut or a reality check, I guess.
 
 Happy motoring.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 16-06-2003 12:38 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:43 pm

Aw, it´s just a phase you´re going through <G>
 
 I´ve been doing more coding these days from home, though I generally like to leave programming at the office. New technology to learn, etc. Still, sometimes when I come home wiped out, it´s rather nice to plonk down on the sofa and race....it´s a soothing escape for me.
 
 Re the times...one step at a time. I´ve spent so many years racing people online that just had a serious knack for the game and after wasting tons of frustrating hours trying to catch them, I just resigned myself to being a person who has ´peaked´. I haven´t peaked in MotoGP by any measure, but I´m also not expecting to find myself near the top of ranked drivers, either. So for now, I´ll just target you since your times are so close to mine in general. Then we´ll see what happens.
 
 Did you see the Laguna Seca race yesterday? (Yeah, I know, it´s CART). Made me homesick for California. I swear I could just "FEEL" the track under me watching those in-car shots, since I drove the track too....it´s really a weird thing when you see a cockpit camera of a track you´ve driven in real life. I find myself thinking about things I just don´t when I´m watching other events.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:53 pm

Randy:
 
 No, I missed Laguna. We had a race yesterday at Pikes Peak, and I spent time with my wife and kids during the early afternoon -- when Laguna was on -- because I knew I´d be working all of the late afternoon and into the night.
 
 CART, bikes, lawnmowers, garbage trucks -- I´ll watch anything that races at Laguna. It and Road America are the finest road circuits in the U.S. and among the best in the world. But the last thing I wanted to do yesterday -- on Father´s Day, especially -- was park in front of the TV and watch races.
 
 I love racing, but when you do it for a living, there are times you just want to tune out from it. Yesterday was one of those times. I´m working six straight weeks, from July 14-Aug. 29, without a day off, so I need to take any time when I can grab it. Ah, the glory and grandeur of working in motorsports ...
 
 It also didn´t hurt that yesterday was the first dry day in Central N.Y. in a week -- gorgeous afternoon!
 
 Sounds like a good race from what I read this morning. Bruno pushed Carpentier hard.
 
 Looks like CART is trying to go private, according to a news release from the company. I also read where Craig Pollack is one of the potential investors, and he wants to take Champ Cars off ovals completely.
 
 What do you think of that?
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 16-06-2003 12:57 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:21 pm

Maybe it´s because I do NOT work in the racing industry <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">, but I raced MotoGP and watched F1, CART, etc and just got spioled by the family yesterday <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">.
 
 Regarding the thing with CART...I just don´t know anymore. I just know that when I watch races like Laguna yesterday, I know that it´s where my heart is at, racing-wise. I just love the sounds of those engines, the great in-car shots through the corkscrew, the guys kicking up dust as they push just a wee bit too far and fish tail it. I don´t really care what they do as a business anymore...just don´t take away my turbo charged open-wheelers running around Laguna, Mid-Ohio, Elkhart, etc.
 
 I also found myself longing for a really good CART sim <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_frown.gif">
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:26 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 I also found myself longing for a really good CART sim <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_frown.gif">
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Hell, I´d like to play that, too. Don´t gasp! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK