GTHobbes wrote:Games like this never benefit when it comes to distrubtion either. I was in Target this weekend and was surprised to see the game (1 copy) on the shelf. If I worked at Gamestop and cared at all about sales of BB, I would've had the game on display in the window at some point. Instead, you'd never even know it was released with all of the Madden and NCAA signs throughout the store. It's quite an uphill battle when you're going up against something as firmly established as Madden.
But that's not a really fair comment GT because if they wanted to get the word out and generate interest they should have done two things in this order:
1) Price the game at $29.99
2) Pay the advertising costs to get the name out there. Gamestop will do that if you pay them. That's what EA does for their Sports games or any of their titles they want to generate exposure and interest.
The guys behind BB failed to do both and it's reflective of their sales.
toonarmy wrote:Yeah I realize the initial engine was not designed for BB, but my point is they have an exclusive engine and have built a pretty cool football game around the engine. It's not like they have to put in enormous resources into a sequel. If they can get some consulting on balancing up the game to eliminate some of the things vexing people, get some of the rules straight, and give the Season mode a bit more depth, then they will have a strong start to a great sequel without having to break the bank.
Fixing the AI to make the single player playable will be a big job. Not to mention they would need to invest time in team management AI, playbook customization, roster customization, and a lot of other things that would give the offline mode a lot more legs. That's certainly possible but this game needs a lot more than just some tweaks. They'll have to invest some serious resources into doing those things.
The AI for single player is highly playable at the higher level. I agree on easy and medium things are too easy most of the time, but on hard in season mode this game is no slouch. The AI is not so much the issue as it is player attributes being out of kilter. I have toyed around with the teams and matchups enough to realize the same things some other bb diehards have known -- there are certain attributes at positions that are the cause of the unbalanced gameplay in various instances, especially noticeable at the lower levels. For example, I almost never see a blocked punt at the higher level. I threw three interceptions in an entire season in the 16 team league. My team gets very few interceptions against teams with a really good QB on hard. And I could go on and on. The point is that I do not think the AI has to be reworked nearly as much as the player attribute system.
I am not pointing fingers at anyone on this forum because I am a newcomer to this thread and have not been following it until recently, but on other sports game forums most of the people complaining did not spend an appreciable amount of time learning to pass, so they griped about throwing too many interceptions; or they were destroying the CPU in the first season of the two main modes and then whining about the weak AI. At the highest level bb has a very good AI that will certainly challenge someone who does not go into the season with a team loaded with gold players. BB's AI does many more things right than it gets wrong, and after playing the trainwreck of an AI in the NCAA demo I really appreciate BB that much more. So in the final analysis, I do not think the task of adding some more plays to the playbook (or customizing them), tweaking the AI here and there, etc. are that monumental because just figuring out how to get the player attributes more balanced for people's skill level will cure a ton of people's complaints.
Rodster wrote:
But that's not a really fair comment GT because if they wanted to get the word out and generate interest they should have done two things in this order:
The guys behind BB failed to do both and it's reflective of their sales.
No argument from me on that, Rod. It's a shame, because IMO they've got a great little game on their hands.
Either way, I just hope they do well enough to make BB2, because this game has a ton of promise. It does so much, so much better than Madden that it's not even funny, but it has its own glaring flaws that need to be addressed.
Sport73
"Can't we all just get along? I'll turn this car around RIGHT now!"
wco81 wrote:Maybe they should have made this a downloadable game and not try to compete with EA's hold on the retail channels. Price it cheaper too.
The retail channel doesn't care who makes it if they think it is going to sell. You can't blame NM for the failure of 505 Games to market and distribute the title. But that's what happens when you end up with the 505/Destineer/Zoo-level publishers.
When it comes down to it, NM might want to make a BB2 but if the sales results are as bad as currently reported then they're going to have a hell of a time finding a publisher.
Fortunately for those who like it, it seems to be a dedicated bunch playing the game. Nothing frustrates me more than picking up a poor-selling niche game (like Race Pro) and then finding the online community is absolutely dead within a couple months. Hope it continues for you guys.
wco81 wrote:Fortunately for those who like it, it seems to be a dedicated bunch playing the game. Nothing frustrates me more than picking up a poor-selling niche game (like Race Pro) and then finding the online community is absolutely dead within a couple months. Hope it continues for you guys.
Thanks, Dave. I hope the online community continues as well, and I'm cautiously optimistic that it will based upon the people I've played these past few weeks.
It's interesting, the game obviously has not sold a ton but the people who did pick it up and are playing it online are not your typical 10 year olds who had their parent buy the game and are doing all sorts of cheesy things online. Instead, based on my experience anyways, the guys who are playing seem to know football and are doing a good job mixing up the running and the passing games, playing smart defense, punting on 4th down, etc. If just the guys who are playing the game now continue to look for games, this could be my football game of choice for a long time to come. Playing against these teams that other people are creating, combined with the great gameplay this game delivers online, will definitely keep it fresh for me personally.
GT your online impression go against a lot of others I've read. People are complaining about the wait to find online players and that the cheese factor is out of control.
Perhaps because you're playing in a league you don't have those issues, but what I am reading on OS and elsewhere is that the random online community is small and filled with sketchy players.
On and here are the week 2 numbers off vgcharts, take them for what it is worth based on webs post. 39K total is a terrible showing. I'm not even sure BB will reach 100k in sales unless they go the APF pricing reduction route.
I've had the game since day 1. I've played dozens of games, and have tried the tips and tricks that people have mentioned at OS and the official backbreaker forums. While they do help amke the game a littel more bearable, they do not make up for all of the problems.
I play on pro/hard, and have been since my 3rd game. Even in season mode, the CPU will never flip their plays, and they pass to the left side (their left) 90% of the time. That is not someting that can be fixed with ratings changes.
Another issue is how even slightly bumping into one of your own players will bring back memories of Madden's "I've been shot" tackle animations. Runners are way too senstive to contact.
Also, I'm on the PS3, so I don't have the advantage of using Finn's editor to try and fix the ratings. The best I can do is create teams with lots of gold players on offense and few on defense. It still leads to too little offense and too many mistakes on that side of the ball.
The game is not completely broken, but there are things that need to be fixed in order for Backbreaker to be taken seriously as a football game.
Danimal wrote:GT your online impression go against a lot of others I've read. People are complaining about the wait to find online players and that the cheese factor is out of control.
Perhaps because you're playing in a league you don't have those issues, but what I am reading on OS and elsewhere is that the random online community is small and filled with sketchy players.
That's the thing that's really surprised me, Dan, is that the random guys I've been playing have been by and large quality players. Usually when I log on, I go straight to create matchup and I might have to wait 5 or 10 minutes until I get a game against a guy who does not have an 0-0 record. Last night, for instance, I didn't log on until midnight EST and within 5 minutes I was in a game against a guy with a 24-7 record (he ended up beating me by a field goal). I got one more game in before going to bed and beat a guy who had been 11-2 by 9 points. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I don't know what online cheese you're referring to. I've yet to see any money plays -- if anything, I've seen guys getting better as they get more and more used to the game.
I've had the game since day 1. I've played dozens of games, and have tried the tips and tricks that people have mentioned at OS and the official backbreaker forums. While they do help amke the game a littel more bearable, they do not make up for all of the problems.
I play on pro/hard, and have been since my 3rd game. Even in season mode, the CPU will never flip their plays, and they pass to the left side (their left) 90% of the time. That is not someting that can be fixed with ratings changes.
Another issue is how even slightly bumping into one of your own players will bring back memories of Madden's "I've been shot" tackle animations. Runners are way too senstive to contact.
Also, I'm on the PS3, so I don't have the advantage of using Finn's editor to try and fix the ratings. The best I can do is create teams with lots of gold players on offense and few on defense. It still leads to too little offense and too many mistakes on that side of the ball.
The game is not completely broken, but there are things that need to be fixed in order for Backbreaker to be taken seriously as a football game.
The CPU sure as heck does not pass to its left side 90% of the time on me. That remark leaves me scratching my head because in over 5 seasons I have seen nothing of the sort. As far as runners being too sensitive, I disagree completely. I think people are used to running full-bore ahead in other games, without worrying about falling due to running into your own players. You have to hang back a bit more in BB, just like in real life. I have had zero problems with this issue once I realized the physics are actually modeled correctly in this respect.
toonarmy wrote:
I think people are used to running full-bore ahead in other games, without worrying about falling due to running into your own players. You have to hang back a bit more in BB, just like in real life. I have had zero problems with this issue once I realized the physics are actually modeled correctly in this respect.
That's also what I see online, toon. When the game first came out, I did see a lot of people always try to use the shoulder charge as soon as the hand-off took place and not have much luck with the run game. But as people have figured out how to hang back a bit more, and to use the spin and juke moves as part of their running game, they're becoming very difficult to stop. I rarely if ever see anyone run into their own players online anymore.
Danimal wrote:but I don't know what online cheese you're referring to. I've yet to see any money plays -- if anything, I've seen guys getting better as they get more and more used to the game.
I'd have to go back and wade through posts that I didn't particularly enjoying reading the first time if you get my meaning. But if memory serves there seemed to be some glitches in the kicking game and one or two other areas that allowed people to get away with stuff. I wouldn't call them money plays.
Anyway I am glad your luck is good, I don't play randoms period in any sports game. I just saw some what I would call BB supporters saying they sold or traded in their copies because they couldn't find online games. It's all second hand info of course.
Follow Me on:
YouTube - www.youtube.com/maxpixelation/
Twitch - twitch.tv/maximumpixelation
Twitter - twitter.com/maxpixelation
Danimal wrote:but I don't know what online cheese you're referring to. I've yet to see any money plays -- if anything, I've seen guys getting better as they get more and more used to the game.
I'd have to go back and wade through posts that I didn't particularly enjoying reading the first time if you get my meaning. But if memory serves there seemed to be some glitches in the kicking game and one or two other areas that allowed people to get away with stuff. I wouldn't call them money plays.
Anyway I am glad your luck is good, I don't play randoms period in any sports game. I just saw some what I would call BB supporters saying they sold or traded in their copies because they couldn't find online games. It's all second hand info of course.
Thanks, Dan...I'll definitely take your word for it. Hopefully the cheese they were referring to is gone for good. So long as I can continue to get in good games against randoms without having to wait more than 5-10 minutes, to go along with the league play, I'll be more than happy.
toonarmy wrote:You have to hang back a bit more in BB, just like in real life. I have had zero problems with this issue once I realized the physics are actually modeled correctly in this respect.
Just because it's different from Madden does not make it just like real life. I've been sent to ground after barely being touched ( by both oppoents and teammates). These aren't cases of running full speed right into the back of an OL I'm talking about. It happens on kick returns as well.
And the CPU sure does use 1 side of the most of the time. This wasn't someting I was looking for, but after a dozen games I began to notice it. Take the play out of the I-Tight (or something liek that) formation, 2 TEs on the right side in tight. They both do crossing patterns across the middle, and almost every time the QB will dump off to the HB for either no gain, negative yards, or a fumble. I see this every game I play no matter what team I play against. They never run this play to the other side, and maybe 1 out of 10 results in a pass to someone other than the HB in the flat. I play as the strong side LB and they treat me like I'm Deion Sanders in his prime.
toonarmy wrote:You have to hang back a bit more in BB, just like in real life. I have had zero problems with this issue once I realized the physics are actually modeled correctly in this respect.
Just because it's different from Madden does not make it just like real life. I've been sent to ground after barely being touched ( by both oppoents and teammates). These aren't cases of running full speed right into the back of an OL I'm talking about. It happens on kick returns as well.
And the CPU sure does use 1 side of the most of the time. This wasn't someting I was looking for, but after a dozen games I began to notice it. Take the play out of the I-Tight (or something liek that) formation, 2 TEs on the right side in tight. They both do crossing patterns across the middle, and almost every time the QB will dump off to the HB for either no gain, negative yards, or a fumble. I see this every game I play no matter what team I play against. They never run this play to the other side, and maybe 1 out of 10 results in a pass to someone other than the HB in the flat. I play as the strong side LB and they treat me like I'm Deion Sanders in his prime.
Either we are talking about two different games or you have no clue what you are talking about. I am still playing this game a lot and know for a fact that the CPU does not pass to one side 90% of the time.
toonarmy wrote:Either we are talking about two different games or you have no clue what you are talking about. I am still playing this game a lot and know for a fact that the CPU does not pass to one side 90% of the time.
toonarmy wrote:Either we are talking about two different games or you have no clue what you are talking about. I am still playing this game a lot and know for a fact that the CPU does not pass to one side 90% of the time.
So what game are you really playing then?
It may not be 90% of the time but if you play as the the right (your right) CB, you will see just how many times they CPU will force it.
I'll admit 90% is a bit of a stretch, but there is a definite bias by the CPU to throw to one side of the field. I'm not sure if this is an AI issue or a result of the playbook and the fact that the CPU never flips their plays.
I'm now 3-0 in my league, having won another conference game this morning 10-6. Barry Foster had 102 yards on 26 carries (once again going over the century mark on the last play of the game), both sides threw one pick, and he had 3 sacks while I had 4. Later today I'm going up against the only other undefeated team -- looking forward to seeing how I do.
I still haven't gotten in any offline games yet (other than Tackle Alley, which I still think is awesome and a great way to practice the running game), but for those who play offline only, there's good news on the patch front. Hopefully the patch will convince a few more people to give this great, great football game a try:
"Official Backbreaker Patch Announcement:
Hi Guys,
I wanted to share something with you. We’ve had to hold back on discussing this for the past couple of weeks but today I can finally tell you that we have been working on a major patch for Backbreaker.
The patch will address many issues and requests raised by the Backbreaker community, so thank you for your valuable input. Further information will follow in good time, but you should be aware that this is something that we are taking seriously and will not be rushing out.
Todd Gibbs - Head of Games Dev."
Last edited by GTHobbes on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That is great news. I'm not expecting it to address everything people have complained about (like hot routes, replay camera), but I do expect it to at least improve the OL blocking, CPU passing AI and turnovers.
The good thing about this is that the game should be patched well before Madden arrives, so maybe it will sway a few people to still pick it up and give it a chance.
matthewk wrote:That is great news. I'm not expecting it to address everything people have complained about (like hot routes, replay camera), but I do expect it to at least improve the OL blocking, CPU passing AI and turnovers.
The good thing about this is that the game should be patched well before Madden arrives, so maybe it will sway a few people to still pick it up and give it a chance.
Speaking of the replay camera, I saw this follow up post from "Todd" over on the BB forum. I agree with the poster in that I like the effort & communication these guys are showing.
"Originally Posted by d3vanj
After reading all the comments on this forum, I was on-the-fence about purchasing this game, but I registered to tell all of you hard working people at 505 that your continued effort, even after the game has been launched, and your open ears to the community have lead me to get this game. I just got home from the store and popped it in the 360."
"Thanks d3vanj, appreciated. And the replay camera is a well discussed topic.
