Backbreaker Preview - Natural Motion based football title

[GTHobbes]

Madden has not be enjoyable for me offline or online. BB has been great fun online. So, to the point made about poor offline AI making a game "shallow" at $50...I'd rather BB at 50% (meaning enjoyable online) than $60 for Madden where i don't enjoy either.

Again, i know some guys really have enjoyed Madden 10 and that's great. But i've played more BB since Sunday than i played any Madden in the last 4 years. So my $50 has been far better spent than the $240 i've spent on the last four years of Madden.

My feelings exactly, Rally. Nicely stated.

[Danimal]

Ok so let me ask you guys this.

What makes BB online so much better then Madden 10? I'm not being a smart ass I would really like to know.

As I said the only reason I am still playing 10 is because of our online franchise and the best part of that is the online games against another human opponent. Since so many people quit, this is our last season as it is not as much fun. So having played 3 season of OF I / We know all of the shortcomings of online play and most boil down to the AI.

So what exactly is BB doing online that makes it so good that the AI issues are not apparent? I saw a guy post this morning about his great online game last night and the only reason he lost is he threw 6 picks

Really curious for the responses here.

[GTHobbes]

Dan, I can only speak for myself and the 9 or so games I've played online, but BB plays a lot like 2k football when you play online against a quality opponent, meaning, success depends on knowing your personnel, putting together some long sustained drives, mixing up the run and the pass and throwing in some play action, sticking to your assignment on defense, etc. In Madden, I haven't been able to establish much of a running game, or to put together long sustained drives, or get any fun whatsoever out of playing defense, in almost 20 years of playing. (Maybe it's just me.)

In my experience with BB, interceptions and sacks are cut way down when you're playing against someone who knows how football is played. It's not too difficult to learn how to make pre-snap primary receiver adjustments in BB, or to learn how to go through your progressions if your primary receiver is covered. It's also not too difficult to be able to gain 3+ yards/carry on average if you're willing to try to establish the running game. I'm sure the guys who don't will continue to throw interceptions, take sacks, and never bother with the running game. But to those who put the time in -- it really does play a lot like you'd expect 2k football to play in the year 2010. In my opinion, anyways. Plus, in my 9 games or so on PS3, there's really been no lag worth mentioning (aside from one of my first games).

I'd occasionally read through the Madden online franchise thread last year, and it did look like it might be something I'd enjoy. But not owning a 360 kept me from ever giving it a go. The couple of games I played against random PS3 opponents were terrible, on the other hand, which has always been the case with me and Madden.

[dbdynsty25]

In Madden, I haven't been able to establish much of a running game, or to put together long sustained drives, or get any fun whatsoever out of playing defense, in almost 20 years of playing. (Maybe it's just me.)

Talk about fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice shame on me. What does fool me 20 times get you? Who plays a game for 20 years and has zero fun?

[ScoopBrady]

In Madden, I haven't been able to establish much of a running game, or to put together long sustained drives, or get any fun whatsoever out of playing defense, in almost 20 years of playing. (Maybe it's just me.)

Talk about fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice shame on me. What does fool me 20 times get you? Who plays a game for 20 years and has zero fun?

Maybe had JRod taught him the system he would have had fun.

[GTHobbes]

In Madden, I haven't been able to establish much of a running game, or to put together long sustained drives, or get any fun whatsoever out of playing defense, in almost 20 years of playing. (Maybe it's just me.)

Talk about fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice shame on me. What does fool me 20 times get you? Who plays a game for 20 years and has zero fun?

What do you think has me so bitter?

[JRod]

Like Bill Harris said, it's probably a 90 game but a 65 right now in it's current state.

As much as I like Bill, that is kind of an odd statement. Wouldn't most games be rated higher if not for their problems?

I don't know what he was driving at...but considering you haven't played the game, you'll figure out just how close the game is.

I attribute most of the AI problems to an imbalance favoring the defense and not the offense. The DL line is stronger than the OL. The Dbs are faster and more aware than the WR. And LBs are too fast and aware.

If they could lower the ability of the defense, I think that solves many but not all of the problems. It would at least give the CPU a fighting chance.

The other thing is the reason for the imbalance. Everything in the game is physics based and you can see just how strong the defense is compared with the offensive players. But this also causes CPU to throw offline throws when in trouble. But what driving this is the engine first then the AI. I don't really know how to explain it but the engine is very good foundation and might have more potential to it than the Madden engine.

[JRod]

In Madden, I haven't been able to establish much of a running game, or to put together long sustained drives, or get any fun whatsoever out of playing defense, in almost 20 years of playing. (Maybe it's just me.)

Talk about fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice shame on me. What does fool me 20 times get you? Who plays a game for 20 years and has zero fun?

Maybe had JRod taught him the system he would have had fun.

Come on you can't be serious. How do all these Madden-gamers play in their tourneys and online with the cheese. I don't play with the cheese but there are things that work in Madden that have nothing to do with football and more about just figuring out you can cheat the engine.

[matthewk]

I hope BB2 fixes as lot of these issues and provides a real alternative for Madden, but there's no way I can sit down and play a game where the CPU QBs play like Rex Grossman.

Is it better to have a game where Rex Grossman plays like Peyton Manning?

Be shocked, call it ridiculous, call it whatever you want, but since Saturday night I've played 6 full games offline and I'm having a blast.

I know the blocking needs to be improved and the DBs abilities need to be toned down. Even with those issues I'd rather play BB than Madden 10 or 2k8. I'm not playing BB because it isn't Madden. I'm playing it because it's the first time in a while that I've had real fun playing a console football game.

[ScoopBrady]

Talk about fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice shame on me. What does fool me 20 times get you? Who plays a game for 20 years and has zero fun?

Maybe had JRod taught him the system he would have had fun.

Come on you can't be serious. How do all these Madden-gamers play in their tourneys and online with the cheese. I don't play with the cheese but there are things that work in Madden that have nothing to do with football and more about just figuring out you can cheat the engine.

The same can be said about any videogame that has ever been made. If you play a game enough you will find exploits. Some games will have more exploits than others but they all pretty much are exploitable. I don't play Madden cheesy and I enjoy it quite a bit. Just like I enjoyed the Gameday series back in the day.

Football is about more than just physical attributes and a physics engine. It's about strategy and what is between a players' ears. In a football game there are things that players and teams can employ to neutralize a player who is being very effective. In Madden you can make those adjustments and are given an opportunity to at least counteract any of the cheesy tactics in an online game. With Backbreaker you have no options. If your players' physical attributes are not a good match for who is matchup is then you can exploit that weakness all game. All of the turnovers and negative yardage gains are a direct result of pressure on the quarterback, something there is way too much of in this game. You have no way to counter that. You can't double a player or have the HB chip him. You can't audible to have your HB stay back for protection.

The only thing Backbreaker has going for it right now is a physics engine. While the physics engine is very impressive it can only be viewed as half of a foundation, IMO. In it's current state this game is years from becoming anything. There is so much missing from this game and a lot of those things could not be added easily without a solid AI foundation as well.

I guarantee if this was Madden 2011 it would not receive any of the praise Backbreaker is getting about how next gen it feels. Madden has used a foundation for the franchise that goes back to last generation and Backbreaker is showing why. Backbreaker has been in development for years and is missing a ton of features and has poor AI. It takes time to completely rebuild a sports franchise and that's something EA does not have when a new title is expected each year. The only way EA can do what is expected from people would be to simultaneously develop another title and spend 3-4 years doing so. That would be taking on double the development costs for that amount of time. What company can afford to do that?

[dbdynsty25]

The only way EA can do what is expected from people would be to simultaneously develop another title and spend 3-4 years doing so. That would be taking on double the development costs for that amount of time. What company can afford to do that?

If anyone can it's the company that spent millions upon millions of dollars to secure an NFL license. If they were smart, they'd see the positive reactions to the physics engine, and they'd go and buy the design firm and use it in their game. That's where my money is over the next few years.

[Brando70]

Is it better to have a game where Rex Grossman plays like Peyton Manning?

The number one thing that kills one-player football games is turnovers. I'd much rather deal with Robo QB than a turnover fest, because Robo QB is at least challenging. High CPU turnovers have long been an issue in Madden, too.

If people love BB, more power to them. Like I said, I hope the series sticks around and improves. I know some people played 2k5 for years despite that game having the most f***ed up franchise mode of any football game I've ever played. Everybody has things they can overlook and things they can't stand. For me, there are simply too many other good gaming options right now to shell out $60 for a stripped-down football game that has serious AI issues as well.

[RobVarak]

I've been assuming that if the engine for BB is as good as promised EA would just buy it up for Madden. The game has struck me as the AFL to EA's NFL since it was first announced.

[MizzouRah]

I'm gonna step in and just make one more comment. I am not a Madden hater, in fact i'm the first to line up every year to pick it up because i keep waiting for the fun factor to finally click. It hasn't yet for me. So here's what it boils down to for little ole Rally:

Madden has not be enjoyable for me offline or online. BB has been great fun online. So, to the point made about poor offline AI making a game "shallow" at $50...I'd rather BB at 50% (meaning enjoyable online) than $60 for Madden where i don't enjoy either.

Again, i know some guys really have enjoyed Madden 10 and that's great. But i've played more BB since Sunday than i played any Madden in the last 4 years. So my $50 has been far better spent than the $240 i've spent on the last four years of Madden.

Point taken.. I feel the same about NCAA, single player is fine for me as I don't play online - but I do realize that is a big part of games nowdays.

[JRod]

Come on you can't be serious. How do all these Madden-gamers play in their tourneys and online with the cheese. I don't play with the cheese but there are things that work in Madden that have nothing to do with football and more about just figuring out you can cheat the engine.

The same can be said about any videogame that has ever been made. If you play a game enough you will find exploits. Some games will have more exploits than others but they all pretty much are exploitable. I don't play Madden cheesy and I enjoy it quite a bit. Just like I enjoyed the Gameday series back in the day.

Football is about more than just physical attributes and a physics engine. It's about strategy and what is between a players' ears. In a football game there are things that players and teams can employ to neutralize a player who is being very effective. In Madden you can make those adjustments and are given an opportunity to at least counteract any of the cheesy tactics in an online game. With Backbreaker you have no options. If your players' physical attributes are not a good match for who is matchup is then you can exploit that weakness all game. All of the turnovers and negative yardage gains are a direct result of pressure on the quarterback, something there is way too much of in this game. You have no way to counter that. You can't double a player or have the HB chip him. You can't audible to have your HB stay back for protection.

The only thing Backbreaker has going for it right now is a physics engine. While the physics engine is very impressive it can only be viewed as half of a foundation, IMO. In it's current state this game is years from becoming anything. There is so much missing from this game and a lot of those things could not be added easily without a solid AI foundation as well. [/quote]

I don't think BB is that far off from getting this year's version right. And maybe it's years off from offering everything Madden has but I don't know about that game.

The reason for the poor play is partly caused, like I've been saying, to an imbalance that the devs gave the defense. Last night I played a few positions to see what was going on and they are simply too fast, quick to react, and stronger than the offensive side of the ball creating what we see. If the CPU was able to run, had more time, and throw the ball more accurately they would put up a formidable challenge.

As for Madden, it sounds nice to do those things but I don't do them because it's football strategy, but because they are minor exploitations of the engine. It's like, I know the AI is going to suction block so I need a scheme to overcome that. It's not, the left side of the OL is weak and I need to attack that area. Or I know but adjusting my line, because the way the AI pursues my I can bust open a long run.

For me, rarely in Madden am I thinking, I need to attack the weak link in their offense or defense. It's more what does the engine not allow me to do, like passing short over the middle or things like that, and then calls plays that work in Madden's system. Personally, I don't feel I'm trying to beat a football team with strategy.

[GTHobbes]

In Madden you can make those adjustments and are given an opportunity to at least counteract any of the cheesy tactics in an online game. With Backbreaker you have no options.

I haven't seen any cheese in BB online, yet. Hopefully, it stays that way.

If your players' physical attributes [in Backbreaker] are not a good match for who is matchup is then you can exploit that weakness all game. All of the turnovers and negative yardage gains are a direct result of pressure on the quarterback, something there is way too much of in this game. You have no way to counter that. You can't double a player or have the HB chip him. You can't audible to have your HB stay back for protection.

No way to counter? Again, I disagree (at least online). Learning to find the open receiver, get rid of the ball quickly, calling some runs when your opponent is thinking pass, changing your play at the line so that it goes in the opposite direction, etc., are all things that I'm doing successfully in BB. I'm not lying when I say that my (and my opponents') interceptions and sacks have gone way down, once I/we got used to the game.

The only thing Backbreaker has going for it right now is a physics engine.

By now, you know that I (and some others) think BB has a lot more going for it than just "a physics engine." Sure, I'd like to see hot routes added -- but there are not a lot of other "features" (beyond in-game saves) that you'll see me clamoring for. There's a pretty darn good game of football here already.

[matthewk]

Football is about more than just physical attributes and a physics engine. It's about strategy and what is between a players' ears. In a football game there are things that players and teams can employ to neutralize a player who is being very effective. In Madden you can make those adjustments and are given an opportunity to at least counteract any of the cheesy tactics in an online game. With Backbreaker you have no options. If your players' physical attributes are not a good match for who is matchup is then you can exploit that weakness all game. All of the turnovers and negative yardage gains are a direct result of pressure on the quarterback, something there is way too much of in this game. You have no way to counter that. You can't double a player or have the HB chip him. You can't audible to have your HB stay back for protection.

The only thing Backbreaker has going for it right now is a physics engine. While the physics engine is very impressive it can only be viewed as half of a foundation, IMO. In it's current state this game is years from becoming anything. There is so much missing from this game and a lot of those things could not be added easily without a solid AI foundation as well.

I hope that BB2 does include some of the adjustment options we are used to, like hot routes, keeping a RB in to block, double teams, etc. Given what we have now, you have the option to alter your depth charts, flip plays, and call audibles in order to make some sort of adjustments. Having the additional "chess match" options would be nice, but the lack of them doesn't ruin the game for me. The negative yardage, INTs, and sacks can likely be corrected with what is already in the game.

As for Madden, some of what I would call cheesy tactics are just a part of the Madden engine. Things like suction blocking, robo QB, and jetpacking are not part of football strategy, and are just as bad as having too many INTs.

The only comparison to Madden I care about is that I have fun playing BB, which I cannot say for Madden 10.

[JRod]

I hope that BB2 does include some of the adjustment options we are used to, like hot routes, keeping a RB in to block, double teams, etc. Given what we have now, you have the option to alter your depth charts, flip plays, and call audibles in order to make some sort of adjustments. Having the additional "chess match" options would be nice, but the lack of them doesn't ruin the game for me. The negative yardage, INTs, and sacks can likely be corrected with what is already in the game.

As for Madden, some of what I would call cheesy tactics are just a part of the Madden engine. Things like suction blocking, robo QB, and jetpacking are not part of football strategy, and are just as bad as having too many INTs.

The only comparison to Madden I care about is that I have fun playing BB, which I cannot say for Madden 10.

Fixing the offense and getting more balance would round out this year's version nicely. Or at least make it as playable as APF's was. I think that should be the benchmark for this year and then build on the feature list for next year.

[RallyMonkey]

Let me try and simplify this because i think there is something being lost in translation between those of us that like BB and those who think it's a flawed football game and we are crack babies for even spending $5 much less $50 on it.

My favorite sports video games of all time were, and in some ways still are, the likes of NHL 94, Punch Out, Tecmo Bowl, Double Dribble, 2K1 for Dreamcast, etc. Why? Because they replicated their sports flawlessly and perfectly? Christ no. Because i had a freakin blast when i was playing them...especially when i was playing them AGAINST SOMEONE ELSE. In the words of Swingers, "I'm gonna make Gretzky's head bleed for super fan 99 over there"--Gretzky's head never really bled in the NHL, certainly not to the point of hemorraghing all over the ice. But it was friggin fun to try and make it happen.

BB brings me back to those days. Is it stripped down. Yup. Are there evident flaws. Yup. Do i chuckle like a freakin school girl when i come off the edge and fold Sport's QB in half when i hit him from behind or get a huge smile on my face when switch from my primary WR to my secondary after reading the field and making a nice throw. Yup. And most importantly, do i want to get home tonight and play it again. Hell yup.

Bring back Pong dammit!!!

[wco81]

The only way EA can do what is expected from people would be to simultaneously develop another title and spend 3-4 years doing so. That would be taking on double the development costs for that amount of time. What company can afford to do that?

If anyone can it's the company that spent millions upon millions of dollars to secure an NFL license. If they were smart, they'd see the positive reactions to the physics engine, and they'd go and buy the design firm and use it in their game. That's where my money is over the next few years.

Actually, EA kind of did that with their PS2 engine. GameDay went to polygons and EA made sure their first PS2 Madden would be using polygons as well.

But I think the last one or two versions of PS1 Madden were still sprites and developed by the regular team.

They saw that they were at a competitive disadvantage, with GameDay and NFL2K presumably going to keep using polygons with the PS2. Of course, GD faded away but NFL2K made some noise.

The Euphoria people tried to get EA to use their tools. This game is the result of EA not biting. Only chance it has is if it gets any kind of traction. What would also help is if another game came along which was a threat but that probably requires the end of the exclusive license.

Then maybe, for the next generation, EA would try it.

But it's not just the physics engine vs. the EA engine resulting in better tackles. You have things that have plagued the series for now 20 f***in years like suction blocking. You would think they'd have some pride about fixing something like that but obviously that's not the case.

It's probably management that's the problem. The individual contributors aren't given the latitude to try to innovate. The company is still laying people off even as they sell millions of copies of FIFA and Madden every year. So they're trying to squeeze every penny of profit (look at the way they're going to make people pay to play online if you buy the game used).

It doesn't seem likely they will do anything daring like putting in another skunkworks project to develop a new engine they way they did for the PS2.

[ScoopBrady]

For the record, I am not saying that I am having zero fun with the game. There are moments that are awesome. It's just that I keep getting brought back down to reality when I see the flaws of the game. For me single player is important because I don't get a chance to play online as much anymore with an infant in the house.

I'm going to try playing with a team with a shittier defense and see if that helps ease up on the CPU interceptions thrown.

I still have hope that someone will figure out a way to edit player stats since file sharing is a possibility with the Xbox 360 version. I am hoping someone has a nice NFL share soon.

[Sport73]

Rally has pretty much expressed the opinion of the BB fans, but I'll add that while the game is RIDDLED with massive flaws in AI and an overabundance of turnovers, it brings enough GOOD to the table to be worth it for those willing to invest the time to learn it.

It's way behind Madden in so many areas (playbook, polish, stat accuracy, etc.) and way ahead in a bunch of areas (physics, camera/in-the-action, QB play, running game, etc.) that you lose a lot and gain a lot at the same time. But, as has been said; it's very fun - especially online, and I'm happy to put dollars down to encourage this developer to make a sequel, because with some very obvious fixes this game could be incredible.

[JRod]

I disagree Sports to a point. There's nothing I could learn to make the AI more dangerous. That's really what I'm asking...after more playtime the game just made the defense too good that's strangling the game.

[Sport73]

My real love for the game comes from the ability to create fine custom teams like this one:

[JRod]

My real love for the game comes from the ability to create fine custom teams like this one:

Hahahaha...ifanboy!


I do love some of the uniforms. I love the Buffalo Team, maybe the Iowa or something like that.

This game is so close to getting year one right (I'm not talking about killing madden) if they could just balance it. I like the look and can live with some of the features. But if they patch to give the offense a chance, that could really create a game where you pop it in until BB2. That's not that game right now though.