Ex-NFL player Tillman killed in Iraq

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Jackdog
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Post by Jackdog »

seanmac wrote:Poor Pat. What a disastrous decision on his part.

I wonder if the Cardinals will do the right thing and christen their new stadium Tillman Field, or if they'll sell out and slap on a corporate name. Wait, why am I even asking?

Get ready for Yahoo stadium.

I am not as nice as Teal.

Joking on a thread about the death of someone shows just how much class you really have.

F*ck you seanmac. I always thought you were an asshole and your statement cements it. Your father made the disastrous decision of not pulling out when you were conceived.

Rangers do lead the way! Even for simple assholes like seanmac.

Sorry for busting up this thread.

RIP SGT Tillman.
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Post by XXXIV »

JackDog wrote:
seanmac wrote:Poor Pat. What a disastrous decision on his part.

I wonder if the Cardinals will do the right thing and christen their new stadium Tillman Field, or if they'll sell out and slap on a corporate name. Wait, why am I even asking?

Get ready for Yahoo stadium.

I am not as nice as Teal.

Joking on a thread about the death of someone shows just how much class you really have.

F*ck you seanmac. I always thought you were an asshole and your statement cements it. Your father made the disastrous decision of not pulling out when you were conceived.

Rangers do lead the way! Even for simple assholes like seanmac.

Sorry for busting up this thread.

RIP SGT Tillman.
Do not be sorry....

You are all heros...


Only the lowest form of life would choose this evnet to get on his political soap box.
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Post by wco81 »

Politics infuses a lot of aspects of life.

We're just expressing opinions here.

Nobody is using this event to win votes or anything.
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Post by seanmac »

I fail to see where I was joking. I expressed my condolences at Tillman's death, and went on to a completely different subject, the matter of whether or not the Cardinals stadium will be named in his honor (which it should be) or whether Bill Bidwell will sell out, which he most assuredly will. If you take offense to that, I don't know what to say.

If, on the other hand, you take offense to my pointing out that his death is in no way made more palatable by bullshit like "Rangers lead the way," or that I am sorry for him and his family that he made a decision that ended his life quite unnecessarily and way too young, then you're the asshole. You show no respect for human life whatsoever.
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Post by XXXIV »

wco81 wrote:Politics infuses a lot of aspects of life.

We're just expressing opinions here.

Nobody is using this event to win votes or anything.
I have this crazy idea that no one in a sports gaming forum should ever have to know what political affiliation anyone else has.

I know
Im goofy
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Post by wco81 »

GridIron_Assasin wrote:
I have this crazy idea that no one in a sports gaming forum should ever have to know what political affiliation anyone else has.

Yeah well, good luck with that.
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Post by XXXIV »

wco81 wrote:
GridIron_Assasin wrote:
I have this crazy idea that no one in a sports gaming forum should ever have to know what political affiliation anyone else has.

Yeah well, good luck with that.
:lol:

No s*** .huh?
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Post by pk500 »

Aye-yai-yai ... I start a thread to deliver some sad news and pay tribute to a fallen U.S. soldier, and it devolves into this.

Next time I'll keep my fingers quiet, I guess.

No wonder this upcoming presidential election is going to be the nastiest, most contentious and mud-slinging political contest in American history. The responses in this thread are just a tiny microcosm of the political forces splitting America in half at the seams these days.

Nothing is truly American anymore; everything is either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, CNN or Fox News Channel. I'm guilty of it at times, too.

Sad, for all of us.

Take care,
PK
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Post by Jackdog »

seanmac wrote:I fail to see where I was joking. I expressed my condolences at Tillman's death, and went on to a completely different subject, the matter of whether or not the Cardinals stadium will be named in his honor (which it should be) or whether Bill Bidwell will sell out, which he most assuredly will. If you take offense to that, I don't know what to say.

If, on the other hand, you take offense to my pointing out that his death is in no way made more palatable by bulls*** like "Rangers lead the way," or that I am sorry for him and his family that he made a decision that ended his life quite unnecessarily and way too young, then you're the asshole. You show no respect for human life whatsoever.

Yep I am an asshole,no doubt. Every soldier that puts his life on the line so pricks like you have the freedoms you enjoy everyday are stupid assholes. What the f*ck are we thinking? We should take a cue from you and be more selfish. We should play more video games and spend a lot more time at Buger King. And the next time we suffer an attack like 9/11 we will just let it slide,maybe they won't do it again if were nice.


Then again if we did that we wouldn't get to see the type of courage Sgt Tillman displayed. He and many others really give a s***. Unlike yourself some people think serving their country is worth much more than what's in their bank account.


RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!!!!!!
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Post by skidmark »

pk500 wrote:Nothing is truly American anymore; everything is either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, CNN or Fox News Channel. I'm guilty of it at times, too.
So sad and so true... Huge danger and both parties are pointing fingers at each other because that's some powerful mud if you can make it stick... everyones anger has risen toward each other and forgotten who the enemy is... well Tillman knew and unlike today's politician he focused and did something about it putting aside what was best for his own life... he is truly an American Hero.
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Post by Jackdog »

pk500 wrote:Aye-yai-yai ... I start a thread to deliver some sad news and pay tribute to a fallen U.S. soldier, and it devolves into this.

Next time I'll keep my fingers quiet, I guess.

No wonder this upcoming presidential election is going to be the nastiest, most contentious and mud-slinging political contest in American history. The responses in this thread are just a tiny microcosm of the political forces splitting America in half at the seams these days.

Nothing is truly American anymore; everything is either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, CNN or Fox News Channel. I'm guilty of it at times, too.

Sad, for all of us.

Take care,
PK

You know who I am for brother.

The soldiers,period.

I am not going to sit by while someone questions the intelligence of a fallen comrade who was fighting the right war in the right country.

Politics and all who play them in a thread like this suck ass.
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Post by Jared »

Calm down people.

I don't have any problems with people discussing Tillman's death, or discussing politics that are surrounding it. That's fine. (Though remember that Tillman died fighting in Afghanistan; so take that into consideration before going off on any Iraq tirades.)

However, the stereotyping of either side or the personal attacks on either side are not in the spirit of DSP. This is a very sensitive topic for people on both sides of the issue, and I understand that tempers will flare. But people on each side hold their opinions for a reason, and we can discuss them without resorting to cheap shots from either side.

So just calm down and try and understand where the other side is coming from (and this goes to people on both sides of the issue) before turning this thread into a brawl.
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Post by wco81 »

Not to minimize the warrior ethos but not every soldier enlists to protect our collective freedoms. They do so because it provides them certain vocational and educational opportunities. There are a lot of reservists who will probably return to nonexistent jobs and disrupted family lives. I doubt they signed up for any of those things.

I fully support the decision to attack Afghanistan (but not necessarily the execution, especially at Tora Bora where OBL and hundreds of Al Qaeda soldiers were allowed to escape because we chose to rely on Northern Alliance ground troops).

However, the truth is, as horrific and traumatic as 9/11 was, this country has had it easy as far as strife and threat to freedom goes. We haven't had war on the main land anywhere near the level witnessed by other countries.

Our freedoms have been at least as much defended by jurists, journalists and others expressing free speech, exposing abuses of power.
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Post by XXXIV »

JackDog wrote:
pk500 wrote:Aye-yai-yai ... I start a thread to deliver some sad news and pay tribute to a fallen U.S. soldier, and it devolves into this.

Next time I'll keep my fingers quiet, I guess.

No wonder this upcoming presidential election is going to be the nastiest, most contentious and mud-slinging political contest in American history. The responses in this thread are just a tiny microcosm of the political forces splitting America in half at the seams these days.

Nothing is truly American anymore; everything is either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, CNN or Fox News Channel. I'm guilty of it at times, too.

Sad, for all of us.

Take care,
PK

You know who I am for brother.

The soldiers,period.

I am not going to sit by while someone questions the intelligence of a fallen comrade who was fighting the right war in the right country.

Politics and all who play them in a thread like this suck ass.
Im new here

I know I dont count very much but I agree 100% with you two.
The hell with politics ...God Bless the American soldier in harms way for US.
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Post by wco81 »

Hmm, the cable political talk shows are leading with this story. No doubt pundits will try to spin it to their political advantage.
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Post by seanmac »

JackDog wrote:
pk500 wrote:Aye-yai-yai ... I start a thread to deliver some sad news and pay tribute to a fallen U.S. soldier, and it devolves into this.

Next time I'll keep my fingers quiet, I guess.

No wonder this upcoming presidential election is going to be the nastiest, most contentious and mud-slinging political contest in American history. The responses in this thread are just a tiny microcosm of the political forces splitting America in half at the seams these days.

Nothing is truly American anymore; everything is either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, CNN or Fox News Channel. I'm guilty of it at times, too.

Sad, for all of us.

Take care,
PK

You know who I am for brother.

The soldiers,period.

I am not going to sit by while someone questions the intelligence of a fallen comrade who was fighting the right war in the right country.

Politics and all who play them in a thread like this suck ass.
Into the valley of death rode the 600...

Soldiers dying for incompetence or stupidity or both is nothing new, and it's deeply upsetting to see the lemming attitude that allows it to happen over and over again rear its head once more. I'm saddened but not surprised to see what the popular response to Tillman's death has been- support the troops, wave the flag a little more, support the government, honor your fallen heroes, and all the rest of the trite, meaningless language that is effective as long as no one is allowed to take photos of the bodies.

I made no comment on the relative worth of the fight. If you're asking me, I would say that it's better that he died in Afghanistan than in Iraq, that it would make me feel better were I his friends or family, but even that is simplistic. The reconstruction has gone so badly that there is no way to know if he was fighting people who were our enemies before 9/11 or if he was fighting enemies that were made afterwards as a result of our failed policy. It's impossible for me to know, and in any event, on a very basic level it's irrelevant, because death isn't impressed with causes.

I'm sorry for his death, as indeed I am sorry for the death of every soldier and every civilian, regardless of nationality. If that's your definition of an asshole, then so be it.
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Post by XXXIV »

wco81 wrote:Hmm, the cable political talk shows are leading with this story. No doubt pundits will try to spin it to their political advantage.
F EM

May they all rot!!!!
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Post by wco81 »

Tillman may become a symbol because he was a much more visible figure than the other casualties.

The question is, why?

Earlier this week, a bunch of pictures of flag-draped caskets were released and the Pentagon wasn't too happy about that, saying it's not fair to the families of the deceased, even though nothing in the pictures can invade the privacies of the deceased or their families.

So why is Tillman's death more publicized?
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Post by seanmac »

wco81 wrote:Not to minimize the warrior ethos but not every soldier enlists to protect our collective freedoms. They do so because it provides them certain vocational and educational opportunities. There are a lot of reservists who will probably return to nonexistent jobs and disrupted family lives. I doubt they signed up for any of those things.

I fully support the decision to attack Afghanistan (but not necessarily the execution, especially at Tora Bora where OBL and hundreds of Al Qaeda soldiers were allowed to escape because we chose to rely on Northern Alliance ground troops).

However, the truth is, as horrific and traumatic as 9/11 was, this country has had it easy as far as strife and threat to freedom goes. We haven't had war on the main land anywhere near the level witnessed by other countries.

Our freedoms have been at least as much defended by jurists, journalists and others expressing free speech, exposing abuses of power.
wco- That's a nice post, and I essentially agree with it. If we were talking theory, I would argue that at this point and time in history no soldier is defending American freedom, as there simply is no opponent capable of fundamentally altering the way in which life or government on this continent is conducted. The language of the warrior ethos hasn't changed from the time of Homer, when the end result of a war was the extermination of a city, the slaughter of all the men and the wholesale enslavement of the women. Contemporary soldiers fight to defend the national interests of their countries. Those interests may be worthy, such as punishing a group of criminals who killed 3,000 innocents, or they may be unworthy, such as providing a venue for corporations to make as much money ripping off the government as possible (in fact, the whole question of whether the new Cardinal stadium is named after Tillman or not is an amazingly spot on metaphor for the worth that soldiers' contributions are currently given- in Phoenix, just as in Iraq, the sacrifice will be noted with lovely language and then everyone will get on to the business of making some money). But one way or the other, they are not interests that threaten the existence of the nation-state.

As for the specifics of the Iraq/Afghanistan debate, I wouldn't say that Afghanistan is the right war. It's the right target fought in the wrong manner. If Afghanistan had been fought in the correct manner, which is to say with overwhelming force at the outset (a greater occupying force than we currently have in Iraq) and the rebuilding attempted on a massive, mulitlateral scale, that would be the right war. And, I dare say, there would have been hundreds of fewer military casualties and tens of thousands fewer civilian casualties. But that's not what happened.
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Post by XXXIV »

Nothing but political spew as you spit on a very good mans grave.

The man did it on his own.
He was not a commercial for either party.unlike you...you are ugly.dirty even.I pity you.

Shame!

Shame on you!
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Post by bdoughty »

So why is Tillman's death more publicized?
His death is more publicized for the sacrifices he made that not many would. Ask yourself this question. Would you give up millions of dollars to make $17,000 to fight in a war? I can't say that I could give that up so he is a better man than I. Does that make his death any more importaint that then next soldier who lost his life? No.

An athlete gives up a 3.6 million contract over 3 years, he also turned down a offer from the Rams that was around 9 million for 5 years to stay with the Cardinals. He does this in an age where most athletes are considered soiled and greedy. When athletes feel they should have their contrasts renegotiated when they have a good year.

Why did this post had to turn into this? Why do people have to tarnish the thread by inserting politics and their opinion on his motives? The man died fighting for my country. He, along with every soldier is a hero in my book and someone I would want kids to look up to.

At the 2003 ESPY's the Tillman Brothers were honored with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. They made a great choice.


He did what he thought was the right thing. You can't question his motives, reasoning or if it was the right thing to do. It was his decision and his alone, to question it or call it disastrous is simply uncalled for and in very poor taste.

RIP Pat


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Post by JRod »

What gets me about all of this is that his death SHOULD NOT get hyped of news coverage.

Somewhere in this greedy America is more honorable to give up millions of dollars to serve your country than it is to SERVE YOUR COUNTRY, period. the news coverage on ABC news was pratcally salivating over this story. Not only that but it pretty much denagrated every other american serviceman just because they never gave up a life of luxury to fight.

I know little about Pat Tillman. And I'm not sicked at his death but at this sense of celebrating his death just because he name was more famous than some private first class who said, I'd like to serve my country.

There isn't degress of honor. There isn't degrees of devotion. And this post along with the media coverage just plays write into this idea that just because someone has been on TV more than the next guy his death gets "publicized".

How about the young man who joins the Military so he can go to college. How about the young man or woman who joins because being in the military is a good profression for them. I'm not a soldier and I don't have any clue on what it's like. But I don't like how this gets a lot of press yet things like lack of VA benefits for those that serve in priovious wars/conflicts. The average military family is almost on the poverty borderline. The turmoil many servicemen and woman endure when they return home due to a job loss, or finding a new job, difficulty dealing with the stress of war and returing to family life. Whatever the reason.

Or how about the young men and woman who are coming off of DC-10s and the American people never see their caskets draped in the Stars and Stripes. I know that Pat Tillman's family is just like every other family that loses someone in war, and that alone is why I don't like this coverage of his death. There are other family going through the same thing, and for that all servicemen and woman of all conflicts and wars should have our utmost, unrelenting support when they serve abroad and when the return home to get on with their lives.
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Post by wco81 »

Of course the media and some politicians are going to publicize Tillman's sacrifice.

But my question was, how did his death came to be known? The Pentagon isn't really publicizing the names of the deceased or the injured.

They wanted to preserve the privacy of the people involved.

Does his family want this to be known?

Everyone is noting that Tillman didn't want to be interviewed about his decision to enter the military. So you wonder how he would have felt about all the publicity his passing has gotten. And there will certainly be a lot more media attention to come.
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Post by XXXIV »

The mass media is disgusting
It always has been

Lets sit back and change the channel as they go on their feeding frenzy

bastards
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Post by JRod »

WCO:
He was ambushed but the details are unclear.

They dont' want the privacy of their soldiers that's a crock. The Bush Admin don't want the TV to be showing pictures of soldiers in their caskets coming off the planes. Privacy is one thing but this is the first administration not to allow reporters to film the fallen soldiers.
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