OT: Racing 2009 (Spoiler Alert)

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:22 am

I read an interesting article that asked the question whether Jimmy Johnson is Nascar's best ever? When you think of Nascar greats Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt Sr., and Jeff Gordon come to mind. But Jimmy has one four Titles in a row, that's a tough act to follow in any sport.

So those of you who follow Nascar where do you put Jimmy Johnson?

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:21 am

Rodster wrote:I read an interesting article that asked the question whether Jimmy Johnson is Nascar's best ever? When you think of Nascar greats Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt Sr., and Jeff Gordon come to mind. But Jimmy has one four Titles in a row, that's a tough act to follow in any sport.

So those of you who follow Nascar where do you put Jimmy Johnson?

I put Jimmie Johnson nowhere near the greats of NASCAR. His owner and crew chief are both notorious cheaters. There is so much dishonesty in NASCAR that I put it one notch above the WWE in terms of being a legitimate sport these days. It's laughable that Johnson is being put in the same sentence with the likes of Petty and Earnhardt.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:58 am

toonarmy wrote:I put Jimmie Johnson nowhere near the greats of NASCAR. His owner and crew chief are both notorious cheaters. There is so much dishonesty in NASCAR that I put it one notch above the WWE in terms of being a legitimate sport these days. It's laughable that Johnson is being put in the same sentence with the likes of Petty and Earnhardt.

Toon, is the implication there that I should believe the likes of Petty and Earnhardt weren't cheats too? NASCAR has always been about what you can get away with, and quite often about getting away with it even when they caught you - I think immediately of The King and his oversized engines, for example.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:03 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
toonarmy wrote:I put Jimmie Johnson nowhere near the greats of NASCAR. His owner and crew chief are both notorious cheaters. There is so much dishonesty in NASCAR that I put it one notch above the WWE in terms of being a legitimate sport these days. It's laughable that Johnson is being put in the same sentence with the likes of Petty and Earnhardt.
Toon, is the implication there that I should believe the likes of Petty and Earnhardt weren't cheats too? NASCAR has always been about what you can get away with, and quite often about getting away with it even when they caught you - I think immediately of The King and his oversized engines, for example.

There's also a rumor/conspiracy theory that his famous 200th win while then President Reagan was in attendance was an almost assured win for then King Petty partly due to what Adam mentioned.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:53 pm

Rodster wrote:
GB_Simo wrote:
toonarmy wrote:I put Jimmie Johnson nowhere near the greats of NASCAR. His owner and crew chief are both notorious cheaters. There is so much dishonesty in NASCAR that I put it one notch above the WWE in terms of being a legitimate sport these days. It's laughable that Johnson is being put in the same sentence with the likes of Petty and Earnhardt.
Toon, is the implication there that I should believe the likes of Petty and Earnhardt weren't cheats too? NASCAR has always been about what you can get away with, and quite often about getting away with it even when they caught you - I think immediately of The King and his oversized engines, for example.
There's also a rumor/conspiracy theory that his famous 200th win while then President Reagan was in attendance was an almost assured win for then King Petty partly due to what Adam mentioned.

It's more than a rumor, my friend. Petty ran an engine that was nearly 20 cubes larger than the maximum that day.

I know from VERY good sources that Dale Jr.'s restrictor plate openings were bigger than the maximum when he won the Pepsi 400 in July 2001, the first race at Daytona after his father's death there in February.

Cheating has been a part of racing since the first motorized contest. To infer that Johnson's accomplishments are tainted by Knaus and Hendrick stretching the rules is, pardon the pun, a stretch.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:39 pm

Not saying there has never been cheating in NASCAR before Johnson. Knaus and Hendrick are both wholesale cheaters, though, and it's quite well known. There's a world of difference between cheating here and there versus wholesale cheating. Of course NASCAR refuses to do anything substantive about it, thus making NASCAR a garbage sport in my book.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:58 pm

I will admit that I don't feel I know enough to present this as anything more than opinion, but I've always understood that NASCAR (not just that discipline either, but let's stick with the one ruling body for now) has always featured wholesale cheating. Petty's engines, for example...Rod highlighted his 200th win, the summer Daytona race in 1984. He could as easily have highlighted his victory at Charlotte the year before, or another win there 10 years prior to that, or...you get the idea.

Smokey Yunick used to design cars with hidden fuel tanks, ridiculously long coiled fuel lines to add fuel capacity, basketballs inside the tank that he could inflate when the capacity was being checked and deflate afterwards, nitrous oxide mods and, perhaps most famously, what was effectively a scale model of a Chevrolet racing car. Why? "All those other folks were cheating 10 times worse than us. It was just self-defence." Darrell Waltrip, another nitrous user, said over 30 years ago that, "If you don't cheat, you look like an idiot; if you cheat and don't get caught, you look like a hero; if you cheat and get caught, you look like a dope," and given that he drove Junior Johnson's cars, he'd know a thing or two about that. They weren't cheating here and there. They were cheating everywhere.

I would be interested to learn how Johnson and Knaus are worse; all I know of them, really, relates to the suspensions Knaus picked up at Daytona and Sears Point, but I can't think of anything they could be doing that would rank them as being any worse than a hundred others we could name.

Edited quickly here to reply to your point about NASCAR's policing of it, Toon. The policy has always but always been that races are decided on the track, and if that's the case, then why not win the race by dubious means on Sunday and take your medicine on Monday? As you say, the incentive to straighten up and fly right isn't necessarily all that big.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:32 pm

As I said before, cheating is nothing new in NASCAR. Junior Johnson and Smokey were two of the biggest cheats ever, but I was responding to the idea that Jimmie Johnson is the greatest NASCAR driver ever. Now that NASCAR is more of a spec sport than every before cheating gives a driver a major advantage. NASCAR is as crooked as can be even though it likes to promote its so-called regulation. Hell, any organization that made Robin Pemberton (his record of cheating as crew chief speaks for itself) its vice-president of competition immediately tells me it's crooked. Ray Evernham's association with Hendrick pretty well put things in motion for Knaus to take over when it comes to wholesale cheating. Evernham is well-known as one of the major cheaters in NASCAR history, and Knaus is an extension of Ray. Another former well-known cheat, Gary Nelson, also had associations with Hendrick. It's crazy how so many of the absolute biggest cheats in NASCAR history have ties with Hendrick. When a Hendrick driver dominates you can rest assured that the domination is taking place for a reason. Guys like Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon are undoubtedly talented, but I cannot in good conscience put them up there with the best-ever drivers when its so clear that their teams have been ridiculously crooked. Knaus' has been caught cheating more than just a few times. If you look at Hendrick as a whole the history of that organization is riddled with blatant cheating. Funny thing is that other teams think that NASCAR lets Hendrick get away with murder for the times NASCAR does not adequately police rule breaking.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:07 pm

I can't make any of that fit with the earlier bit about how there's a difference between cheating here and there and wholesale cheating, you know. Not to worry. The issue I suppose I should raise is the one of who the best-ever drivers would be, if we were to judge everyone using the same criteria the Hendrick driving staff are being judged by.

toonarmy wrote:Another former well-known cheat, Gary Nelson, also had associations with Hendrick.

Yup. And with DiGard, where he did nothing to shrug off that 'well-known cheat' tag, along with Robert Yates, who wasn't known for sparing the horses on those engines of his, or the cubic capacity for that matter. Nelson, of course, has previously held the same VP of competition role that Pemberton currently holds (better to have them inside the tent pissing out, and all that). I think the word I'm after is 'endemic'.

Have a look at the likely Silverstone layout for BGP 2010. What is the reprofiling of Club going to achieve, exactly? Ditto Chapel. That new section, where they turn right at Abbey instead of going through the chicane, bothers me; they're removing the overtaking opportunity at Abbey and I can't immediately see what they're replacing it with.

Dear God, now it's finally confirmed that Silverstone is where we're staying, please don't let them bugger it all up...

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:39 pm

One of the worst kept secrets of the last few months: Danica to part-time Nationwide Nascar ride.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cu ... id=4723006

Danica Patrick will announce on Tuesday in Phoenix her decision to drive a part-time Nationwide Series schedule for JR Motorsports in 2010, a source close to the negotiations told ESPN.com on Monday.

GoDaddy.com, which is handling the announcement at an 11 a.m. press conference, sent out a media alert late Monday afternoon.

ESPN.com reported last month that Patrick was in the final stages of negotiations with JRM to compete in about a dozen races in a No. 7 -- her number in IndyCar -- Chevrolet with GoDaddy.com as the sponsor. The source said that has not changed.

When Patrick announced her three-year extension with Andretti Autosport last week in New York a picture appeared on her Web site with her in a NASCAR fire suit bearing a JRM and other NASCAR-related logos. It quickly was removed.

Also, Adam what do you make of the Schumi to Mercedes GP rumors?

http://www.newsonf1.co.uk/2009/news/Dec ... _grow.html

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:11 pm

Back in the day in NASCAR I am not sure you could really call it cheating in the same sense as it is today since everyone back then was allegedly "cheating." It was a totally different era with a different ethos. Nowadays most teams do try to follow the rules, so if a team is engaged in wholesale cheating like Hendrick does, and allowed to get away with it most of the time with a wrist slap here and there, then it gives the cheating teams a much larger advantage over the other teams. I don't think jealousy can fully account for all the under-the-surface grumbling in the garages about NASCAR's propensity to look the other way when it comes to the shenanigans of Hendrick.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:31 pm

On a random note, F1 Racing (Dec 2009) has an article by Murray Walker in which he takes to task people questioning Button's worthiness of being champion. An excerpt:

"My God, what more do they want? Blood? In 2009 Jenson won six out of the first seven races. Yes, that was in a superior car, thanks to to Brawn cleverly stealing a march on the others with their double diffuser, but Jenson brilliantly got the best out of it -- and his record is actually better than the revered Nigel Mansell, who won five times in 1992's first seven events in a similarly superior Williams. Jenson scored commandingly more points than anyone else, even though he only got half his entitlement for his fine win in Malaysia. He only failed to score once, at Spa when he was nerfed off by Grosjean, and he drove a superb attacking race in Brazil, under colossal pressure, to take the title and give the lie to his critics -- then did the same at Abu Dhabi in his exciting battle with Mark Webber. The name of the game in F1 is to keep scoring points consistently and that is exactly what Jenson did, in a no-longer-dominant car after his sixth win of the year in Turkey, against fierce opposition from the redoubtable Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, and his team-mate Barrichello, Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen.

Jenson's success this year has been no fluke. It has been a long and hard road to the top but he has got there by sheer talent, by calmly making the best of every situation, consistently exploiting a superb car and by staying hungry and determined despite years of adversity. Unworthy champion my foot."

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:45 pm

Check this article from Sterling Moss regarding the safe modern F1. What you really need to look at is a picture of Massa right after the accident. Holy cow that did look bad. You can see his helmet is messed up as well.

Anyways enough of my blathering and on to the link.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/4802.html

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:43 pm

toonarmy wrote:On a random note, F1 Racing (Dec 2009) has an article by Murray Walker in which he takes to task people questioning Button's worthiness of being champion. An excerpt:

"My God, what more do they want? Blood? In 2009 Jenson won six out of the first seven races. Yes, that was in a superior car, thanks to to Brawn cleverly stealing a march on the others with their double diffuser, but Jenson brilliantly got the best out of it -- and his record is actually better than the revered Nigel Mansell, who won five times in 1992's first seven events in a similarly superior Williams."

While that is statistically true, Nigel had a loose wheel in Monaco and, though I don't believe footage of the whole incident exists (if it does, I'd love to be pointed in the direction of it - I've only ever seen Nigel's car in bits on the start/finish straight), maintains that Senna forced him off the road in Montreal. In winning one world title, Jenson Button's record is actually better than the revered Ronnie Peterson, Dan Gurney, Tony Brooks and Stirling Moss, a point I was going to save for a blog post I haven't finished yet...

One thing about Murray is that he doesn't go in for criticism of drivers. Not even ones whose level was some distance below the F1 machinery they'd been given, not even Ricardo Rosset. A thoroughly nice man, Murray.

Edited to take advantage of the chance to throw in some vintage Murray. Here comes Mario Andretti, the 1979 1978 world champion, in a car you'll all be enthusiastic and knowledgeable enough to identify - his Lotus 79. 78. 80.

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gpkQMXnHyN0&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

What do we all make of this little bit of news, then?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:48 pm

GB_Simo wrote:What do we all make of this little bit of news, then?

I clicked on it fully expecting to read a revised "medals" scoring system, so this sounds great compared to last year's proposal.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:17 pm

GB_Simo wrote:What do we all make of this little bit of news, then?

Could F1 enter a season without changing a rule? Didn't think so.

This proposed new system is stupid. It adds nothing to the spectacle for fans. It placates sponsors, who want to see their drivers scoring points more often, even if those points are completely devalued.

The best scoring system was 10-6-5-4-3-2-1, which was simple and placed the proper premium on winning. F1 never should have abandoned it. But too many drivers and teams had goose eggs at the end of the season, embarrassing sponsors.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:14 pm

DChaps wrote:Also, Adam what do you make of the Schumi to Mercedes GP rumors?

http://www.newsonf1.co.uk/2009/news/Dec ... _grow.html

Don, I totally missed this - my eyes jumped straight to toon's post and I didn't pick yours up, so I've just clocked it now. Sorry about that.

I tried to write a little about it, though time constraints and starting a new job have given me rather less time than I'd like to fully explore this sort of thing. I'm not sure Mercedes, in their first year back as a works outfit, should be putting themselves in a position where if they don't win races, we'll blame them and not the drivers regardless of whose fault it really is - how many of us would see Schumi toddling around in 5th or 6th and think he'd lost his magic? I don't quite understand what Michael would get from it either, and I never believe something if it's reported by the German newspapers...

I can't help but feel that it's convenient for all parties to keep the story going. Michael has sponsors, after all, and Mercedes lost the world champion to the team they'd just left behind in the week that they announced the Brawn purchase, so they had a bit of bad news to bury. The longer it goes on, though, and the more the parties involved fail to deny it, the more I begin to wonder.

For all that Michael says his planned summer comeback was purely to help his friend Felipe Massa, I don't think there's any doubt that the prospect of racing again genuinely excited him. His place in history is set, and he retired while still at the peak of his powers (that drive at Interlagos was a wonderful goodbye, and while perhaps it might be better to end there, there was more in the tank at that time), so what would he lose by having one last go at it? I don't think he will, mind you, but I didn't think he would in the summer, and I'm less convinced of what I think with every newsless day.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:33 pm

A quick one on the points system - the FIA charge for Super Licences is made up of a flat fee plus an amount determined by the driver's performance over the previous season. Each point the driver scores increases the licence fee by something like 2100 Euros.

I imagine someone will review and change that process, but I thought I'd throw that one out there all the same.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:23 pm

Well, Yahoo Sports has a headline on its front page now saying that Michael is going to sign a one-year deal with Mercedes. 2010 suddenly becomes insanely interesting.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:29 pm

toonarmy wrote:Well, Yahoo Sports has a headline on its front page now saying that Michael is going to sign a one-year deal with Mercedes. 2010 suddenly becomes insanely interesting.

No doubt, dude! Plus Kimi in the WRC and Ben Spies in MotoGP also are fascinating.

Roll on, 2010!

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:43 pm

Nico has officially/unofficially been relegated to No. 2 if Schumi shows up for 2010. What what a conflict of interest for me. Ferrari is my favorite team and Michael is my all time favorite driver.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:29 pm

What's the over/under on how many times Lewis will be asked, "What's it like to be on the same grid as Michael?"?

The 2010 campaign has an incredibly wonderful mix of youth, experience, and everything in between. Just think about how much talent is going to be on the grid now. The newcomers are intriguing, the veterans are proven winners, and the young guys who have been around for a few years are hungry. It has been many many years since I can remember an all-around lineup of drivers from top to bottom being this interesting.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:42 pm

Rodster wrote:Nico has officially/unofficially been relegated to No. 2 if Schumi shows up for 2010.

The emphasis is mine, and it's added to sound a tiny note of caution to those talking as if we know he's back - after all, even in the summer when things were agreed and announced, we still didn't see him. Bild, the German newspaper Yahoo's story came from, quoted no sources, and a Schumi comeback story on a weekend would shift the odd extra copy...

Mind, in saying that I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm under control too. The more they fail to deny it, the more likely the whole thing suddenly looks. Maybe that's the idea, but at least it's keeping us interested through the winter.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:22 pm

Bugger it: gentlemen, start your erections.

From the blog of James Allen, who has spent the last many many weeks emphasising that he doesn't believe for a second that Schumi's on the way back:

"I’m beginning to realise that this is true. Schumacher is coming back. Incredible."

I’ve been doing a lot of digging and it seems to be happening. Astonishing!

In response to, "Hi James, do your sources lead you to believe this is now going to happen? What is your gut instinct?"

Yes, I’ve done a lot of digging in the last 24 hours and it looks like it is on.

The note of caution he has since sounded is that Michael has not yet undergone any checks on the neck injury that kept him away from the Ferrari F60 in the summer, hasn't yet spoken to Luca di Montezemolo about leaving Ferrari and hasn't yet approached sponsors with whom he has 2010 commitments about a release from those. He has confirmed, though, that Michael didn't attend Ferrari's Christmas party this weekend, which has fuelled the rumours still further...

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:30 pm

Add this to the speculation:

Ferrari happy for Michael Schumacher to join rivals

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 412828.stm