OT: Racing 2009 (Spoiler Alert)

[Smurfy]

From what I saw during qualifying, I can't say I like the look of the Abu Dhabi circuit very much. It looks like one large piece of asphalt with a race track painted on it. The scenery also looks way too artificial to me. The facilities may be state-of-the-art, but the track doesn't seem to have any soul.

Just my first impressions.

[Rodster]

From what I saw during qualifying, I can't say I like the look of the Abu Dhabi circuit very much. It looks like one large piece of asphalt with a race track painted on it. The scenery also looks way too artificial to me. The facilities may be state-of-the-art, but the track doesn't seem to have any soul.

Just my first impressions.

Like Bahrain?

[Rodster]

I got a chance to watch a replay f the race. I think the track looks impressive but it has that artificial Ridge Racer look to it. I prefer tracks like Spa, Imola, Monza, because they don't have that Epcot Center look to them which this one has IMO.

[pk500]

Abu Dhabi is a Tilkedrome. 'Nuff said.

There's not one circuit Hermann Tilke has designed that can remotely compare to a classic track like Spa, Imola, Monza, Suzuka, etc. Tilke always forgets one vital fact when designing his circuits: Motor racing fans enjoy overtaking.

I don't mind Istanbul, which has that awesome quad-apex Turn 8. But otherwise, Tilkedromes generally are stop-start circuits with straights of varying length connecting first-, second- or third-gear corners. His tracks lack flow or many fast corners.

Max Mosley and the FIA were rightly ripped from 1998-2008 for allowing the grooved tires, excessive aerodynamics and narrow-track cars that made overtaking damn near impossible in F1. But Tilke deserves plenty of blame, too, for designing such boring circuits that discourage overtaking.

Sorry, but F1 needs more guys like John Hugenholtz, who designed fantastic tracks like Suzuka, Zolder, Hockenheimring, Nivelles and Jarama. He also ran Zandvoort. Hugenholtz understood how motor racing fans wanted to see fast, flowing circuits, not the squirt-and-stop blight that Tilke has inflicted on modern Formula One.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

Abu Dhabi is a Tilkedrome. 'Nuff said.

There's not one circuit Hermann Tilke has designed that can remotely compare to a classic track like Spa, Imola, Monza, Suzuka, etc. Tilke always forgets one vital fact when designing his circuits: Motor racing fans enjoy overtaking.

I don't mind Istanbul, which has that awesome quad-apex Turn 8. But otherwise, Tilkedromes generally are stop-start circuits with straights of varying length connecting first-, second- or third-gear corners. His tracks lack flow or many fast corners.

Max Mosley and the FIA were rightly ripped from 1998-2008 for allowing the grooved tires, excessive aerodynamics and narrow-track cars that made overtaking damn near impossible in F1. But Tilke deserves plenty of blame, too, for designing such boring circuits that discourage overtaking.

Sorry, but F1 needs more guys like John Hugenholtz, who designed fantastic tracks like Suzuka, Zolder, Hockenheimring, Nivelles and Jarama. He also ran Zandvoort. Hugenholtz understood how motor racing fans wanted to see fast, flowing circuits, not the squirt-and-stop blight that Tilke has inflicted on modern Formula One.

Take care,
PK

They couldn't pass at Jarama 30 years ago, though - witness Gilles and his 20-wheeled train in 1981 - and while Hockenheim of old generally provided decent racing, the layout wasn't the work of a genius. Nivelles was generally thought of as bland and sterile in period...

There is a tendency towards rose-tinted nostalgia among racing fans, and I'm as guilty of it as all of us. Are the Tilkedromes classic tracks? Not at all, though we seem to be overlooking that at least a couple of his circuits (Bahrain, new Hockenheim, Turkey, the Nurburgring's opening complex) do have the odd bit of overtaking here and there. For all that his tracks are generally bland and featureless, his overtaking strike rate doesn't appear that much worse than that of the older circuits we all hold up as classics.

Would I sooner see a Formula One car go around Suzuka than Shanghai? Sure. Would I see a better race there? Leave aside the freakish backside-first grid of the 2005 event, and I don't happen to believe that I would.

[toonarmy]

Abu Dhabi is a Tilkedrome. 'Nuff said.

There's not one circuit Hermann Tilke has designed that can remotely compare to a classic track like Spa, Imola, Monza, Suzuka, etc. Tilke always forgets one vital fact when designing his circuits: Motor racing fans enjoy overtaking.

I don't mind Istanbul, which has that awesome quad-apex Turn 8. But otherwise, Tilkedromes generally are stop-start circuits with straights of varying length connecting first-, second- or third-gear corners. His tracks lack flow or many fast corners.

Max Mosley and the FIA were rightly ripped from 1998-2008 for allowing the grooved tires, excessive aerodynamics and narrow-track cars that made overtaking damn near impossible in F1. But Tilke deserves plenty of blame, too, for designing such boring circuits that discourage overtaking.

Sorry, but F1 needs more guys like John Hugenholtz, who designed fantastic tracks like Suzuka, Zolder, Hockenheimring, Nivelles and Jarama. He also ran Zandvoort. Hugenholtz understood how motor racing fans wanted to see fast, flowing circuits, not the squirt-and-stop blight that Tilke has inflicted on modern Formula One.

Take care,
PK

You're honestly saying Yas Marina lacks places to overtake? Stunningly ignorant if you are being serious. There is plenty of opportunity to pass at Yas Marina.

[Rodster]

I'm very impressed with Vettel as he's on his way to another victory. I'm more impressed with Vettel than I am with Hamilton early in both their careers. I realize Lewis is the reigning Champion but Vettel won in a Toro Rosso and has pulled off a couple of victories in the Red Bull which was expected of him.

Any thoughts?

[GB_Simo]

I'm very impressed with Vettel as he's on his way to another victory. I'm more impressed with Vettel than I am with Hamilton early in both their careers. I realize Lewis is the reigning Champion but Vettel won in a Toro Rosso and has pulled off a couple of victories in the Red Bull which was expected of him.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that Toro Rosso's 2008 package was better than you give it credit for, though his entire Monza weekend was excellent. Vettel is quick, yes, and has settled down somewhat in the second half of the year, but he made too many race-ending mistakes early in the year. I shall edit this to add that all the same, I can't help but love a man who throws some doughnuts into his celebration, and then gives Kate's Dirty Sister a shout-out on the radio.

More impressive than Hamilton matching Alonso in his first year? No.

Edit: To save me posting again straight after myself, I'll add that I'm super, super impressed with Kobayashi, again. Surely a full-time seat awaits in 2010?

[toonarmy]

Very fun race considering no championships were at stake. I agree with many of the drivers, Ross Brawn, and a lot of other people in echoing the greatness of the track layout. I cannot wait to try this track out in a couple weeks in the Formula One game coming out for the PSP and Wii. It also seems to be very spectator-friendly in that the locations of the stands make it possible to see quite a bit of action.

Simo has it right -- Kobayashi needs a full-time seat next season. That guy has a set of bollocks. Give him a full year and there is no telling how many drivers he will make sweat and/or pissed off.

[pk500]

You're honestly saying Yas Marina lacks places to overtake? Stunningly ignorant if you are being serious. There is plenty of opportunity to pass at Yas Marina.

I'm saying it's typical of a Tilkedrome. Lots of straights of varying lengths connected by slow corners. Very little flow, very stop start. Sure, there are overtaking areas, but they're out-braking contests instead of ballsy passes through a sweeping, fast corner. Dull.

Granted, he's limited by the urban environment, so I'll give Tilke a pass on this one. Dude did the best he could with the available real estate.

But most Tilke circuits even in open land consist of straights connected by slow corners.

Look at a great circuit like Spa or Suzuka and look at a Tilke circuit and tell me at which one you'd rather race.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

PK, now your point is a bit clearer, I reckon you're going after the wrong guy.

They can't pass at Suzuka. They can't pass at Silverstone. They can pass in Montreal, which is all slow corners connected by big straights. They can pass at Yas Marina, which is the same. Ditto Bahrain. Tilke designed a track at Sepang which is incredibly wide and full of high speed stuff for the drivers to attack, and they can barely pass there.

Are they classic tracks? No. Can Formula One cars put on a decent race on the classic tracks? Sure doesn't look like it. While the cars are the way they are, are these Tilkedromes not something of a necessary evil?

[toonarmy]

You're honestly saying Yas Marina lacks places to overtake? Stunningly ignorant if you are being serious. There is plenty of opportunity to pass at Yas Marina.

I'm saying it's typical of a Tilkedrome. Lots of straights of varying lengths connected by slow corners. Very little flow, very stop start. Overtaking areas going into very slow corners. Dull.

Granted, he's limited by the urban environment, so I'll give Tilke a pass on this one. Dude did the best he could with the available real estate.

But most Tilke circuits even in open land consist of straights connected by slow corners.

Look at a great circuit like Spa or Suzuka and look at a Tilke circuit and tell me at which one you'd rather race.

Take care,
PK

In a previous post you say, "Tilke always forgets one vital fact when designing his circuits: Motor racing fans enjoy overtaking." Reality is that Tilke's courses actually DO typically provide overtaking opportunities. In fact, he designs them that way. You later state, "But Tilke deserves plenty of blame, too, for designing such boring circuits that discourage overtaking." I guess boring is up for argument. The drivers sure do not seem to think the Tilke courses are all boring. Tilke courses require a good amount of technical skill while at the same time providing places to pass. I think that is why the drivers are so happy with the course at Abu Dhabi. His designs are based around the reality of competitiveness, TV, advertising, spectators, and simple space considerations. To that degree I think he does a good job and provides for racing that is not all that dull at all.

[pk500]

You're expecting drivers to criticize a circuit in this vanilla, corporate age of F1? Good Lord, that's naive. The old Turns 8 and 9 complex on the original Indy road course was incredibly Mickey Mouse before it was changed for the MotoGP circuit, yet hardly any F1 drivers ripped it at the inaugural USGP in 2000.

Why do people call places like Suzuka, Monza and Spa "drivers' tracks?" Because they're a test of the drivers' balls as much as the machine. It still takes/took some sack to blast through Eau Rouge, 130R, the Parabolica, pre-chicane Tamburello (Imola, I know) and Blanchimont. Maybe Eau Rouge, 130R and Blanchimont are flat now, but drivers also know there still will be serious consequences for a mistake or a mechanical failure in those corners.

There's nothing like that at all at Tilke tracks except for possibly the quad-apex Turn 8 and uphill Turn 11 at Istanbul. The rest are all sanitized point, squirt and brake slot-car tracks.

Tilke's tracks test the machine -- because of their heavy braking zones and long straights -- as much or more than the drivers' balls.

That's why I hate Tilkedromes -- they're not fast, flowing circuits at all. They're not drivers' circuits.

Hell, Silverstone gets ripped, and it's way more of a drivers' circuit than any Tilke track. There's hardly anything at a Tilke track that resembles Stowe, Copse, Bridge or the incredible Maggots-Becketts complex. Sure, Silverstone mainly gets shredded for its quaint, 1950s-level facilities. But unfortunately, those antiquated facilities cast a shadow over the entire circuit.

And the quality of the surrounding facilities means a hell of a lot more to F1 drivers and teams than the circuit design itself, and it's one of the two reasons why Tilke tracks get such a pass in the F1 world.

The facilities surrounding Tilke circuits are PHENOMENAL. No denying that. Every one of his tracks has raised the bar for F1 in terms of garages, hospitality, etc.

Modern F1 drivers and team officials spend a hell of a lot more time in the garage, in a hospitality suite or on an access road in and out of the track than they do a race car. So if the facilities are great, then the drivers easily will overlook any flaws in the circuit design.

Interlagos is an exception. It's a dump, but it's a solid circuit. And the place just OOZES motor racing passion. Even the most dispassionate, vanilla driver can feel that.

But Bahrain? Abu Dhabi? Shanghai? Sepang? Those places have no passion, no history, no petrol in their veins at all. So all the drivers and teams care about there are big garages, tons of power outlets, working wireless Internet, lavish suites with running air conditioning, etc., etc. If that exists, very few really give a toss about the quality of the circuit. It's just another race for them, especially in a circuit with such an insane grind of travel.

Tilke also is a member of Bernie's mafia. Bernie has a small circle of people to whom he continually grants business in return for loyalty. Katja Heim with track PR, Paddy McNally and Allsport for track hospitality and the Paddock Club and Tilke for circuit design, for example. In fact, I can't think of a new F1 circuit in the last 10 years that Tilke didn't design other than the Indy circuit. That monopoly is not good for F1.

If you work in F1, it's a good idea not to criticize Bernie or his legion of minions. The man still wields incredible power in that world even though CVC controls the purse strings now.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

The old Turns 8 and 9 complex on the original Indy road course was incredibly Mickey Mouse before it was changed for the MotoGP circuit

Still is, though quite what else could be done with that bit, I don't know.

Why do people call places like Suzuka, Monza and Spa "drivers' tracks?" Because they're a test of the drivers' balls as much as the machine.

Monza?

Hell, Silverstone gets ripped, and it's way more of a drivers' circuit than any Tilke track. There's hardly anything at a Tilke track that resembles Stowe, Copse, Bridge or the incredible Maggots-Becketts complex.

There are two reasons why Tilke tracks get such a pass in the F1 world. One, the facilities surrounding the circuits are PHENOMENAL. No denying that. Every one of his tracks has raised the bar for F1 in terms of garages, hospitality, etc.

Silverstone, with the brilliant Copse corner where the drivers can't follow closely enough to stay with the car ahead through Maggotts and Becketts. Even if they could, they lose so much ground in dirty air through the complex that they can't get a tow down the Hangar Straight into Stowe, or much of a run from there into Vale. Bridge, I'll let you have, because Priory isn't really a passing place unless you're desperate.

It is a brilliant, brilliant drivers circuit, Silverstone, but every year we seem to find ourselves grousing about the lack of decent racing. We tend not to do that at Hockenheim, and I'm not going to complain too much about Yas Marina. If you can't hold a decent motor race at Silverstone then the circuits aren't the problem, but by the same token I don't really want people designing circuits of a similar ilk if the racing is going to be poor. F1 is an entertainment business, and it is a sad fact of modern F1 that the drivers circuits seem, during a race, to only to entertain the drivers these days.

A quick, barely relevant point on Silverstone's facilities - they've done a lot of work, but it's still basically a field with some Tarmac in it, and not even someone who loves the place as much as I do can really get away from that.

[Rodster]

Edit: To save me posting again straight after myself, I'll add that I'm super, super impressed with Kobayashi, again. Surely a full-time seat awaits in 2010?

Kobayashi set for 2010 Toyota drive

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79960

[pk500]

Still is, though quite what else could be done with that bit, I don't know.

Not much. But it's much better than it was.

Monza?

The chicanes are a blight, but Lesmo and Parabolica still are fantastic corners. And the big average speed attained for a lap around Monza still puts it among the men's circuits.

F1 is an entertainment business, and it is a sad fact of modern F1 that the drivers circuits seem, during a race, to only to entertain the drivers these days.

There's not much overtaking at ANY track these days. But at least on the rare occasion it happens at a place like Silverstone, Spa or Suzuka, you know it's because of balls.

People still talk about Schumacher and Hakkinen splitting Zonta at Spa. People still talk about passes at Silverstone. People still talk about Alonso's pass of Schumacher in 130R. People still talk about Alonso holding off Schumacher at Imola over the last 15 laps of the 2005 race.

How many people will be talking about out-braking maneuvers diving into a second-gear corner at a Tilkedrome five to 10 years from now?

Very few, I'm afraid.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

There's not much overtaking at ANY track these days. But at least on the rare occasion it happens at a place like Silverstone, Spa or Suzuka, you know it's because of balls.

People still talk about Schumacher and Hakkinen splitting Zonta at Spa. People still talk about passes at Silverstone. People still talk about Alonso's pass of Schumacher in 130R. People still talk about Alonso holding off Schumacher at Imola over the last 15 laps of the 2005 race.

How many people will be talking about out-braking maneuvers diving into a second-gear corner at a Tilkedrome five to 10 years from now?

Very few, I'm afraid.

Take care,
PK

I love you, man, but I need a bit of help. First the Tilkedromes discouraged overtaking, then when they didn't actually do that it turned out that there was little overtaking anywhere, but what overtaking there was seemed better on the ballsier tracks, at which point my head caved in under the weight of trying to understand what exactly I was being invited to believe. It would rather seem to back up my assertion that the circuits aren't the problem, whatever it is.

Edit: Or is your point now linked to the entertainment gained from a lap, rather than overtaking by itself? I'm having a bit of difficulty purely because each post seems to say something slightly different, but if it's purely one of entertainment then I'd sooner iRacing modelled Suzuka than Hockenheim, of course.

To flip around the Alonso/Schumacher point a little, could we not instead say that it's an illustration of the problem when even Schumi in a much faster car can't find a way around someone?

[pk500]

To simplify, as I probably have confused myself as well as everyone else: There isn't much overtaking at any track, but at least overtaking at ballsier circuits requires more of the driver than simply blasting down a straightaway and applying the brakes later than the driver next to you, which is the case at most Tilkedromes.

I guess I'm an anachronism because I'm entertained more by racing at real circuits than at sanitized stop-start tracks consisting primarily of right angles or 180-degree corners. I'd rather see one or two brilliant maneuvers in a high-speed, flowing corner at a track like Spa or Silverstone than five into a hairpin corner at the end of a straightaway.

That said, you're still not seeing excessive overtaking anywhere. Sure, the cars play a huge role in that. But so do the circuits.

I like to see more than just the acceleration and braking of a modern F1 car put to the test. I also like to see it corner and change direction at top speed. Very few Tilke tracks do that -- other than Istanbul -- and it's not like there's THAT much more overtaking at Tilke tracks than classic circuits.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

I guess I'm an anachronism because I'm entertained more by racing at real circuits than at sanitized stop-start tracks consisting primarily of right angles or 180-degree corners. I'd rather see one or two brilliant maneuvers in a high-speed, flowing corner at a track like Spa or Silverstone than five into a hairpin corner at the end of a straightaway.

That I completely agree with. What had me beat was that it looked as though you were suggesting the number of passes was the same on those circuits as on the Tilkedromes. If it's simply an issue of spectacle, then I'm completely with you.

[pk500]

I guess I'm an anachronism because I'm entertained more by racing at real circuits than at sanitized stop-start tracks consisting primarily of right angles or 180-degree corners. I'd rather see one or two brilliant maneuvers in a high-speed, flowing corner at a track like Spa or Silverstone than five into a hairpin corner at the end of a straightaway.

That I completely agree with. What had me beat was that it looked as though you were suggesting the number of passes was the same on those circuits as on the Tilkedromes. If it's simply an issue of spectacle, then I'm completely with you.

It's an issue of spectacle, indeed. Yes, I underrate the amount of overtaking created by Tilkedromes. They probably do have more passing than some classic circuits because heavy braking zones do create opportunities to pass.

But I want to see cars passing at speed, not on the binders. You don't see that very much at Tilke tracks because nearly all of them consist of straights connected by hairpins and right-angle corners. Dull.

There's not enough ballsy passing, period, at either the classic tracks or the Tilke tracks since the ethos of F1 for the last decade has been to pass people during the stops, not on track. But as long as we're going to exist in this aero-dependent era of F1, I'd rather see five passes per season like those that Alonso pulled at 130R at Suzuka and Schumi and Hakkinen splitting Zonta at 185 mph at Spa than 15 passes where someone outbrakes a rival at the end of the back straight leading into the front straight hairpin at Sepang.

It's like the difference between marlin fishing and bass fishing. You don't catch a ton of marlin when you go deep-sea fishing, but if you're strapped into that chair, fighting that huge fish, I can only imagine the immense satisfaction when that fish is pulled on the boat. When you go bass fishing in a hot spot, you can land a bass every fourth cast, which gets insignificant and old after a while.

Different strokes for different folks.

Take care,
PK

[Smurfy]

In the defense of Bahrain, there is a nice long right-hander leading up to the final straight of the circuit. That's definitely a place where drivers can show balls. The problem with Bahrain is the sand you see in all directions.

I realize now why my first impressions of Yas Marina were so negative. It reminds me a bit of Magny Cours - Yeah, part Magny Cours part Las Vegas.

As a spectator, Spa and Suzuka have become huge snoozefests for me. I'm sure that after another year of collecting hard data at the track that Yas Marina will be just as boring as most of the other places.

I was very impressed with Kobayashi's clean battle with Button. Two races don't make a career, but he seems to have the potential. I just hope he can file off those rough edges because I was angry with his moves in Brazil.

I'm not going to disagree with anyone that Vettel's a great driver. Indeed, I hope he wins the championship. But I can't be sure that he's a better driver to have than Hamilton. Given the difficulties that the team faced this season, I'd have to say he did a great job helping return them to their winning form. Edit: Faced with a bad car last year Alonso showed his desperate side more easily than Hamilton did this year.

I'm still amazed how fast Kimi can get that Ferrari around a track.

I guess double-diffusers aren't banned for next year? They don't help in the quest for overtaking.

[Rodster]

Bridgestone pulls out of F1 after 2010. Rumor has it that Tire Kingdom will be the official tire supplier for F1 in 2011 and beyond.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79968

[pk500]

Bridgestone pulls out of F1 after 2010. Rumor has it that Tire Kingdom will be the official tire supplier for F1 in 2011 and beyond.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79968

Tire Kingdom! LOL!

The return of Michelin, perhaps? Goodyear has enough trouble building a good tire for a stock car, so I don't see a return by the Flying Foot.

Pirelli, maybe?

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Another problem with the Abu Dhabi circuit, pointed out by Anthony Davidson on "The Chequered Flag" podcast from the BBC: No gravel traps.

It was WAY too easy for drivers to go off track and lose barely any time at this circuit. All-asphalt run-off areas were pioneered at Paul Ricard after Bernie bought the circuit and turned it into a futuristic test track, and sadly the blight of no gravel traps is being adopted at actual racing circuits.

Terrible. There should be a substantial penalty for going off the circuit. I don't care if the circuit is in a park in Italy, a desert in the UAE or on the moon.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Guess I'm not the only one who is unimpressed by Tilkedromes. From the blog of veteran F1 journalist Joe Saward:

"Looking back over the Abu Dhabi weekend, it was definitely a triumph for Formula 1, even if the race was rather a dull one. Thankfully Jenson Button and Mark Webber gave it a bit of excitement in the last few laps. The thing that is hard to understand is why when the track designers have a clean sheet of paper and all the money in the world is available that they still manage to design tracks that make overtaking impossible. It is not just about the cars. There is overtaking at Spa and at other tracks so one would have thought by now that there would have been some real scientific study into race tracks where passing does happen, in order to establish what it is that creates the chances that the drivers need. And if they have that data then it should be possible to replicate those circumstances. I don’t think that this is rocket science, but it seems to be something that has escaped the designers at Tilke."

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/11/ ... o-go-home/

Take care,
PK