Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
Thanks for the tip, Adam!GB_Simo wrote:The BTCC finale at Brands Hatch this afternoon, though, was a thriller, and well worth seeking out through whichever methods you have at your disposal.
Button needs five stinkin' points in the last two races to clinch the title, even if Vettel wins both. Still, it would be justice if Vettel caught Button because I maintain my claim that unless he wins at least one of the last two races, Button is the most uninspiring champion this decade. The guy is simply backing into the title, taking advantage of a superior car the first half of the season but vanishing once rivals caught up in terms of speed and reliability.GB_Simo wrote:This Vettel character is going to win an awful lot of championships, starting one day very soon. Two more races like this and his reign will start in a month's time,
What difference does it make when the races are won? A win is a win, regardless if other teams are catching up later in the season. And the fact that other teams are improving their cars is not the fault of Button, so it's absurd to imply he lacks "true animal instinct." I guess he was frolicking in the daisies when he won 6 of the first 7 races. Where was Rubens during those races? He later beat his teammate in Germany, Hungary, and Singapore. He was put out of the race in Belgium due to an accident. Came in second to Rubens in Italy, and had a poor performance at the European Grand Prix. And, despite being put back on the grid in Japan, damn near beat Rubens at Suzuka. The facts do not back up your assertions about Button somehow lacking a "true animal instinct." He has actually done quite well on the whole with the car he has been given. I won't even touch your comments trying to compare F1 to a spec series such as IndyCar. Reading that was good for a laugh, though.pk500 wrote:Button needs five stinkin' points in the last two races to clinch the title, even if Vettel wins both. Still, it would be justice if Vettel caught Button because I maintain my claim that unless he wins at least one of the last two races, Button is the most uninspiring champion this decade. The guy is simply backing into the title, taking advantage of a superior car the first half of the season but vanishing once rivals caught up in terms of speed and reliability.GB_Simo wrote:This Vettel character is going to win an awful lot of championships, starting one day very soon. Two more races like this and his reign will start in a month's time,
I've seen very few whispers about this fact in the F1 press, primarily because British journalists dominate the English-speaking F1 press. And the international motor racing press is VERY nationalistic, so don't expect the Brits to dump on the homeboy when he's winning a title, regardless of the elan -- or lack thereof -- shown.
It still makes me sick that the World Champion probably will have earned his last victory in June, with quite possibly only one podium finish in the second half. This isn't supposed to be NASCAR, where you go points racing for a title.
There is no way in hell Button would have the mettle to beat Hamilton or Massa in a head's up showdown for a season if he had similar cars to those two for the entire year, much like the McLaren-Ferrari duels between Schumacher and Hakkinen in the late 90s. Button seems like a very nice fellow, but I don't think he has the true animal instinct to put people away.
Christ, Rubens Barrichello never will be mistaken for having the ferocity of Senna, and he has two wins and another podium in the second half.
It would be one thing if this was a particularly deep, talented field in 2009, but it's not. The 2009 F1 season review DVD could be subtitled: "A Comedy of Errors."
There's no question the Singapore cheating scandal would have dominated the headlines in any season. But is it any wonder why there was such a feeling of damp squib once that scandal ended and the focus was turned back to racing? The racing has been desultory this season, especially in the second half, and none of the contenders has reached out as if he really WANTS this title.
Contrast that with MotoGP, where the two title protagonists are KILLING each other in every race to establish superiority, with the pendulum swinging seemingly every race.
Or how about WRC, where it looked like Loeb would walk away before Hirvonen got hot and put Loeb on his heels? The top two, Hirvonen and Loeb, have finished on the podium each of the last three rallies, setting up a cracking finale.
Or the IndyCar Series? Three guys -- all of whom have won in the last five races and have multiple wins this season -- separated by eight points entering the finale this Saturday night in Homestead.
Maybe the spellbinding stretch runs the last two seasons of F1 have spoiled me, but this F1 championship chase has been about as captivating as mixing pancake batter for me.
Take care,
PK
Button was taking a clearly superior car and winning. He did his job well under little adversity.toonarmy wrote:I guess he was frolicking in the daisies when he won 6 of the first 7 races. Where was Rubens during those races?
It doesn't, but it shows the measure of the driver if he can stack up to his rivals when they're in even or close-to-even cars. Button simply has not done that this season. He dominated when the Brawn had a clear edge in speed and reliability, which is, of course, what good drivers do. He also has benefited from having the best strategic mind on the pit wall, Ross Brawn.toonarmy wrote:What difference does it make when the races are won?
Feel free to touch them. I'm all eyes.toonarmy wrote:I won't even touch your comments trying to compare F1 to a spec series such as IndyCar. Reading that was good for a laugh, though.
Kimi doesn't give a crap what anyone thinks so having Lewis trying the mind game trick won't work. In fact Autosport posted an article where Lewis prefers to have Heikki rejoin him next year. Gee I wonder why. Kimi on a good day with the right car is pretty much unbeatable.pk500 wrote: I'm not ready to put Kimi in that category, because he could be dangerous next season at McLaren if it builds a good car. A motivated Kimi would be impervious to any mind games that Hamilton might attempt. Lewis also is a very tough mental customer, so that McLaren garage could be damn fun to watch in 2010!
Take care,
PK
Rubens isn't just outqualifying him, but generally doing so with more fuel on board. Ross Brawn made the point on the interactive BBC Fans Forum after the race on Sunday that Button's Sunday afternoons generally aren't that bad (though that's really the best you can say about them, isn't it? Not that bad...), but he's been driving terribly on Saturday afternoons and giving himself an awful lot of work to do.pk500 wrote:Edward Gorman makes a good point in the first link that further buttresses my case that Button is limping to the world title: Barrichello has outqualified Button in the last six races.
Oh, well. Jense still probably is going to win the World Championship. So congrats to him. He'll be a "one and done" title winner, just like Hill and Villeneuve last decade.
Thanks for making up stuff I never said or implied, oh master of the overstatement. Where did I say that Button is going to rank up with the great champions or Prost? You are being absurd and just plain stupid at this point.pk500 wrote:toonarmy wrote: A title is a title, but this certainly won't be one remembered for any kind of flair or dominance. So you're going to rank Button up there as a great champion without a victory in the second half of the season? With just one podium in the second half of the season? He's the next Prost?
Better yet, name me one signature, clutch drive the guy made this season that will be remembered like Alonso holding off Schumacher for 15 spellbinding laps at San Marino, Lewis destroying the field at Silverstone in the wet, Vettel steamrolling the field in a deluge at Monza or Massa winning with everything at stake at Interlagos. You can't. Maybe your legendary lad will come through with something memorable in the last two races, and I'll be the first to devour my hat if he does. Chances are, he'll just trundle around to fourth or fifth, get the necessary points and wear the crown.
The alternative view, of course, is that if Button had qualified higher than 14th at Spa he'd never have been in that accident, and the car was capable of it since Rubens qualified it 10 places further on. I'd also suggest, if we're wondering about whether facts back up assertions, that it's a bit much to include the recovery in Japan as part of the case for Button without mentioning that Rubens had the better race pace in Hungary, but had the unfortunate incident with Massa in Q2 that consigned him to 13th on the grid. In the end, either the facts are that beating old Rubinho fair and square twice in the last eight Grands Prix is doing quite well with the car Button has been given, or that Jenson really hasn't done quite well at all since early summer. At least, that's how it would seem to me.toonarmy wrote:[I guess he was frolicking in the daisies when he won 6 of the first 7 races. Where was Rubens during those races? He later beat his teammate in Germany, Hungary, and Singapore. He was put out of the race in Belgium due to an accident. Came in second to Rubens in Italy, and had a poor performance at the European Grand Prix. And, despite being put back on the grid in Japan, damn near beat Rubens at Suzuka. The facts do not back up your assertions about Button somehow lacking a "true animal instinct." He has actually done quite well on the whole with the car he has been given.
No, I'm building my case that the guy won't be considered a great or even worthy champion. You seem to think he is a worthy champion strictly based on mathematics.toonarmy wrote:Thanks for making up stuff I never said or implied, oh master of the overstatement. Where did I say that Button is going to rank up with the great champions or Prost? You are being absurd and just plain stupid at this point.pk500 wrote: A title is a title, but this certainly won't be one remembered for any kind of flair or dominance. So you're going to rank Button up there as a great champion without a victory in the second half of the season? With just one podium in the second half of the season? He's the next Prost?
Better yet, name me one signature, clutch drive the guy made this season that will be remembered like Alonso holding off Schumacher for 15 spellbinding laps at San Marino, Lewis destroying the field at Silverstone in the wet, Vettel steamrolling the field in a deluge at Monza or Massa winning with everything at stake at Interlagos. You can't. Maybe your legendary lad will come through with something memorable in the last two races, and I'll be the first to devour my hat if he does. Chances are, he'll just trundle around to fourth or fifth, get the necessary points and wear the crown.
Is it too sensationalist to suggest that this, assuming he doesn't pull a Reutemann and completely disappear in the last couple of races, is as underwhelming a championship-winning performance as there has ever been? As Smurfy said, even Jacques had Jerez, and a quick mental runthrough of past champions doesn't immediately give me anyone else making quite such a half-arsed job of becoming world champion.pk500 wrote:The guy almost certainly will be crowned champion based on points and the ability to steer a far superior car around the track the first half of the season. But as I said before, name me one other benchmark of a worthy champion the guy has achieved this season.
or 
.Yes Paul, I did indeed consider his drive at Monaco. However, he had a pretty weak last stint with Button on his tail.pk500 wrote:All good points, Smurf. Regarding Trulli, did you mean this season? If not, he did have a pretty swell drive in 2004 at Monaco ...
Take care,
PK
You seem to be discounting the superiority of the Brawn chassis in the first half of the season due to the team's clever, ingenious interpretation of the diffuser rules.toonarmy wrote:How many Champions have not dominated an entire season? Also, how many Champions have failed to win as many races as Button has this year? The Driver's Title is based on an entire year, so that is where I am having a hard time placing Button into the lower rung of F1 Driver's champions.
And do you think Rubens wants to bend over and take in the ass for his teammate like he did with Ferrari for so long? If Rubens can stay within distance until the final race, unless the team purposefully sabotages his car, I think he may very well say "f*** it" and go for the championship, team orders or not. As you point out, he's gone from Brawn after this year, he's well-liked in the paddock, he's got tons of points and no championship (Mark Martin anyone?), so I think he could very well get away with defying any team orders and grab the title if he so desires. Will this likely happen? Very doubtful considering that Brawn and Button will try like mad to finish things off in the next race.pk500 wrote:Rubens doesn't have a chance as I think Brawn will impose some sort of team orders favoring Button. Do you really think the team wants Barrichello carrying the No. 1 with him to Williams next season
The other point with Keke, of course, is that he had a Cosworth in the back of his Williams, the weary old DFV battling against the full-bore turbo BMW, Renault and Ferrari engines. Sure, 1982 was a strange season in many ways - 'water-cooled brakes', Cosworth cars trying desperately to cheat the weight limit, a season in which nobody won more than two races - but I defy anyone to watch the tapes from that season and find a single race in which Rosberg wasn't driving the wheels off his car.pk500 wrote:Like Adam, I'm reaching back to think of a World Champion who has made more of a ham-fisted drive to the crown during the second half of his title season. I immediately think of 1982, when Keke Rosberg won the title with just one victory and in the season in which Gilles Villeneuve was killed.
But Keke earned his only victory in the third-to-last race of the season and was on the podium in three of the last five races of the season.
Comparing Rubens Barrichello to Mark Martin is a stretch. Martin was the undisputed team leader at Roush Racing for at least 15 years, really until the emergence of Kenseth about six or seven years ago. Martin finished second in the standings because he played the dutiful soldier to a superior teammate, not because he was a No. 1 who got beat by a non-teammate.toonarmy wrote:And do you think Rubens wants to bend over and take in the ass for his teammate like he did with Ferrari for so long? If Rubens can stay within distance until the final race, unless the team purposefully sabotages his car, I think he may very well say "f*** it" and go for the championship, team orders or not. As you point out, he's gone from Brawn after this year, he's well-liked in the paddock, he's got tons of points and no championship (Mark Martin anyone?), so I think he could very well get away with defying any team orders and grab the title if he so desires. Will this likely happen? Very doubtful considering that Brawn and Button will try like mad to finish things off in the next race.
Thank you Bill, for our word of the day.pk500 wrote: One of the reasons Rubens isn't a No. 1 is that he lacks that Machiavellian instinct of so many No. 1 drivers. He's not going to throw the toys out of the crib to get his way or work behind his teammate's back to curry favor with the engineers or management.
Take care,
PK
Calm down. If you pay closer attention, I put the Martin statement in parentheses after pointing out the deal with a lot of points and no championship. I fully understand the similarity ends there. As for the last couple races, I think you will see Rubens driving his butt off trying to win the championship. He's not a docile little flower out there to help Button become world champion.pk500 wrote:Comparing Rubens Barrichello to Mark Martin is a stretch. Martin was the undisputed team leader at Roush Racing for at least 15 years, really until the emergence of Kenseth about six or seven years ago. Martin finished second in the standings because he played the dutiful soldier to a superior teammate, not because he was a No. 1 who got beat by a non-teammate.toonarmy wrote:And do you think Rubens wants to bend over and take in the ass for his teammate like he did with Ferrari for so long? If Rubens can stay within distance until the final race, unless the team purposefully sabotages his car, I think he may very well say "f*** it" and go for the championship, team orders or not. As you point out, he's gone from Brawn after this year, he's well-liked in the paddock, he's got tons of points and no championship (Mark Martin anyone?), so I think he could very well get away with defying any team orders and grab the title if he so desires. Will this likely happen? Very doubtful considering that Brawn and Button will try like mad to finish things off in the next race.
Rubens hasn't been the team leader in the last decade, probably not since the last year at Jordan and during his Stewart tenure. He's also never been the team leader for a contending team, unlike Martin.
Martin was a team leader, a No. 1 driver, for more than a decade in his series. Barrichello has been the most dependable No. 2 in F1 for the last decade.
One of the reasons Rubens isn't a No. 1 is that he lacks that Machiavellian instinct of so many No. 1 drivers. He's not going to throw the toys out of the crib to get his way or work behind his teammate's back to curry favor with the engineers or management.
Martin was a prick for about the first 15 years of his Cup career. Only in the last five years or so have we seen the kinder, gentler Mark Martin that dovetails with the personality and class that Rubens admirably has shown his entire career.
Rubens always been Mr. Nice Guy, the ideal teammate, and I don't see that changing over the last two races. It would be one thing if he had announced his retirement earlier this season, effective after Abu Dhabi. Then there would be sentiment to see him exit as a champion.
But Rubens is moving to a rival team, and F1 has little time or inclination for sentiment for those who remain within its cocoon as active participants.
Take care,
PK
