OT: Racing 2009 (Spoiler Alert)

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:29 pm

toonarmy wrote:Well, you would obviously know better than I do about that. It comes as a surprise to me if that is the case. I guess the thing I would worry about is that in NASCAR when you touch cars/wheels sightly you usually recover, but in IndyCar a slight touch can mean a devastating wreck. It seems to me that the NASCAR guys at a big event like the Indy 500 would not be steady or experienced enough to go 200+ mph wheel to wheel in a car they have little experience in.

IndyCars have WAY more downforce than a Cup car, so the Cup drivers would feel glued to the track compared to what they feel now. Plus IndyCars run on tracks with smaller bumps than some of the Cup tracks, such as Daytona.

But IndyCars do not have power steering like Cup cars, so that would take some adjustment.

That's why I always laugh when NASCAR fanatics say Danica Patrick isn't strong enough to drive a Cup car. Hell, she's driving a car now with no power steering and would move into a car with power steering. Plus the woman has an Anaconda Death Grip handshake; she is one strong chick for her size.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:37 pm

pk500 wrote:
toonarmy wrote:Well, you would obviously know better than I do about that. It comes as a surprise to me if that is the case. I guess the thing I would worry about is that in NASCAR when you touch cars/wheels sightly you usually recover, but in IndyCar a slight touch can mean a devastating wreck. It seems to me that the NASCAR guys at a big event like the Indy 500 would not be steady or experienced enough to go 200+ mph wheel to wheel in a car they have little experience in.
IndyCars have WAY more downforce than a Cup car, so the Cup drivers would feel glued to the track compared to what they feel now. Plus IndyCars run on tracks with smaller bumps than some of the Cup tracks, such as Daytona.

But IndyCars do not have power steering like Cup cars, so that would take some adjustment.

That's why I always laugh when NASCAR fanatics say Danica Patrick isn't strong enough to drive a Cup car. Hell, she's driving a car now with no power steering now and would move into a car with power steering. Plus the woman has an Anaconda Death Grip handshake; she is one strong chick for her size.

Take care,
PK

Agree about Danica. People who say she cannot drive a cup car due to lack of strength are ignorant. I'm sure her level of fitness and strength are quite high.

So, let's say Dale Jr. were somehow able to drive in the Indy 500. Wouldn't he need to at least drive in some IndyCar races before the 500 to be able to compete safely. The 500 is not only technically and physically strenuous, but the sheer length is mentally strenuous as well. I understand the issues such as more downforce, but I still am not convinced that a guy like Dale Jr. could drive a full Indy 500 without some kind of dedication to the sport to prepare him adequately.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:00 pm

toonarmy wrote:So, let's say Dale Jr. were somehow able to drive in the Indy 500. Wouldn't he need to at least drive in some IndyCar races before the 500 to be able to compete safely. The 500 is not only technically and physically strenuous, but the sheer length is mentally strenuous as well. I understand the issues such as more downforce, but I still am not convinced that a guy like Dale Jr. could drive a full Indy 500 without some kind of dedication to the sport to prepare him adequately.

If he was smart, he would run some previous races. But if he passed the Rookie Orientation Program and qualified for the race, he could compete.

The distance isn't a problem. Dude runs 500 miles many times per year in a vehicle that's much hotter than an open-wheel, open-cockpit car. But the concentration due to the speed and the stamina due to the G forces would be an adjustment, for sure.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:02 pm

I should imagine running those restrictor plate races requires an amount of concentration as well, PK. I know it's not the same as never dipping below 200 and scary mph at Indy but it must focus the mind at least a little bit.

Speaking of focusing the mind, you should be able to see this: BBC F1 anchorman Jake Humphrey scaring Jenson Button witless in an AMG Merc. The run through Becketts at 3:15 or thereabouts must have been an experience...:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 110885.stm

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:31 am

"Shocking" collapse of Ferrari and other long-time stalwarts like McLaren and Renault in F1 this year.

Attributed to both design deficits (upstarts have a better diffuser design) and tactical mistakes on race day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =djemAutos

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:43 am

wco81 wrote:"Shocking" collapse of Ferrari and other long-time stalwarts like McLaren and Renault in F1 this year.

Attributed to both design deficits (upstarts have a better diffuser design) and tactical mistakes on race day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =djemAutos

McLaren's demise this season has been more shocking than that of Ferrari. Despite the 2007 drivers' title, the Prancing Horse has seemed a bit adrift since the technical Dream Team of Brawn-Byrne-Simon/Martinelli was broken up after Schumacher left.

But McLaren had an ass-kicking car last year, and I thought it would be dominant again this year. But the team has been way more out to lunch than Ferrari.

Did the departure of Ron Dennis from day-to-day operations really make that much of a difference? Maybe so. Either that, or the team just designed a rare dog.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:30 pm

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:"Shocking" collapse of Ferrari and other long-time stalwarts like McLaren and Renault in F1 this year.

Attributed to both design deficits (upstarts have a better diffuser design) and tactical mistakes on race day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =djemAutos
McLaren's demise this season has been more shocking than that of Ferrari. Despite the 2007 drivers' title, the Prancing Horse has seemed a bit adrift since the technical Dream Team of Brawn-Byrne-Simon/Martinelli was broken up after Schumacher left.

But McLaren had an ass-kicking car last year, and I thought it would be dominant again this year. But the team has been way more out to lunch than Ferrari.

Did the departure of Ron Dennis from day-to-day operations really make that much of a difference? Maybe so. Either that, or the team just designed a rare dog.

Take care,
PK

I'm inclined to say it is more the absence of Ron Dennis in the day-to-day duties than anything else. I'm sure people at McLaren had to adjust, as Ron was absolutely meticulous in the way he ran things in his old role. Next season will be very telling. Another egg laid by McLaren will mean heads will roll fast. Heads may roll anyway before next season depending on how the powers at McLaren view things. This season has been a shocker for me. One would think Ferrari and McLaren would not BOTH be getting dominated by "lesser" teams in the same season.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:11 pm

Martin Whitmarsh is a Ron Dennis clone wannabe. His only negative is that he is said to be a nice guy whereas Ron ruled with an iron fist. If heads do roll at McLaren I seriously doubt it will be Martin.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:29 pm

We talk as if McLaren haven't got previous for missing the mark. Twice this decade already they've produced cars that fell short of the mark, and their steadily diminishing success in the early part of the decade was with evolutions of the same basic car. Consider also that through the car's conception and birth, The Ron was still there. I reckon this year's McLaren is just an unfortunately-timed dog.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:39 pm

GB_Simo wrote:We talk as if McLaren haven't got previous for missing the mark. Twice this decade already they've produced cars that fell short of the mark, and their steadily diminishing success in the early part of the decade was with evolutions of the same basic car. Consider also that through the car's conception and birth, The Ron was still there. I reckon this year's McLaren is just an unfortunately-timed dog.

The thing is that the cars of McLaren have been very strong the past two seasons. In fact they have been the best. Obviously penalties from the top took away points to where they were not as dominant in the points as they were on the track. It's hard to fathom that the car this year can be so mediocre, rules and tech changes aside, when McLaren spend so much money and man hours on the car, and considering they are coming odd fairly dominant seasons.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:59 pm

toonarmy wrote:It's hard to fathom that the car this year can be so mediocre, rules and tech changes aside, when McLaren spend so much money and man hours on the car, and considering they are coming odd fairly dominant seasons.

You'll get no argument there, but it's been the way before, hasn't it? The car that Williams gave Jacques Villeneuve to defend his title under new rules in 1998, for example, was nothing like as good as the cars they'd produced in the previous 3 seasons. Had he driven as well in '97 as he did for much of '98 he'd have wrapped that title up much sooner, '96 was a two-horse race and the '95 machine was, to my mind, the class of the field, let down by the driving staff.

It's odd. You'd think that if you can design one good car using lots of people, lots of man hours and a big pot of cash, you could design others regardless of the rule sets, but clearly it's a much deeper, darker science than that. Aftter all, even McLaren themselves appear to not yet fully understand quite why the '09 machine isn't working.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:06 pm

Also don't forget Adrian Newey's ballyhooed "Ferrari killer" for 2003, the MP4-18. It was quick but incredibly brittle, as Newey pushed the tolerances of design way over the limit.

The car never was raced, and that stillborn car put McLaren on the back foot through the 2003 and 2004 seasons.

Adam is right: It's not out of the realm of possibility at all for a team to build a crate. There also could be things like wind tunnel calibration errors that we don't know about where the aero readings over the winter were great but ended up being flawed because of improper tunnel calibration.

The margin for error in F1 is incredibly thin.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:16 am

Good points all the way around. I saw where Hamilton bested both Red Bull and Brawn in the second practice at the Nurburgring. Maybe McLaren have figured something out. Qualifying will perhaps tell even more here in 8 hours or so. Man, I just realized that Fox is doing this race on Sunday. I absolutely cannot stand Fox' coverage. Not only is it taped, but it just plain sucks balls.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:44 am

Definitely an interesting qualifying session today. Piquet outqualified Alonso. Sutil qualified 7th, in front of both Ferraris (WTF?!?). McLaren seem to be inching closer.

Pos Driver Team Q1 Q2 Q3
1. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:31.257 1:38.038 1:32.230
2. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:31.482 1:34.455 1:32.357
3. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:31.568 1:39.032 1:32.473
4. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:31.430 1:39.504 1:32.480
5. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:31.473 1:39.149 1:32.616
6. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:31.881 1:40.826 1:33.859
7. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:32.015 1:36.740 1:34.316
8. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:31.600 1:41.708 1:34.574
9. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:31.869 1:41.730 1:34.710
10. Piquet Renault (B) 1:32.128 1:35.737 1:34.803
11. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:31.771 1:42.310
12. Alonso Renault (B) 1:31.302 1:42.318
13. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:31.884 1:42.500
14. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:31.760 1:42.771
15. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:31.598 1:42.859
16. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.190
17. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:32.251
18. Fisichella Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:32.402
19. Glock Toyota (B) 1:32.423
20. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:33.559

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:07 pm

toonarmy wrote:Definitely an interesting qualifying session today. Piquet outqualified Alonso. Sutil qualified 7th, in front of both Ferraris (WTF?!?). McLaren seem to be inching closer.

Alonso got hosed by being on the wrong tires at the wrong time in Q2. He went to slicks right after Barrichello stayed out on slicks and was quickest in Q2, but the rain returned right after Ferdie went to slicks. Alonso was second-quickest in consistent weather in Q1.

The weather in Q2 was on acid. Spitting rain to pouring rain to sunshine and back in a span of 15 minutes. Serious headaches for the teams but great fun for us fans.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:52 am

Congrats to Mark Webber for a brilliant race even overcoming a penalty. Also a strong third and solid race for Felipe Massa. It appears Ferrari is progressing nicely although i'm wondering if they put anymore effort into this car and just move onto next's machine, hopefully with Alonso in Kimi's seat.

I didn't catch the race incident between Kimi and Sutil. I did hear Kimi's explanation as a race incident. Too bad as his Ferrari was on pace for a strong finish and Adrian was looking to bring the Force India to possibly a podium finish.

Ross Brawn must be a little nervous now. Red Bull at the moment is looking stronger. I'm curious to see if he decides to put his eggs in the 2009 car or move on to develop the 2010 machine. Supposedly there are a few updates coming for the Brawn cars but Red Bull is bringing it at the moment. And are the Red Bulls using the double decker diffuser? I thought they weren't for some reason.

Rumors are brewing once again that Bourdais is gone after Hungary.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:23 am

Rodster wrote:Rumors are brewing once again that Bourdais is gone after Hungary.

And World Rally Champion Sebastien Loeb, who tested a Red Bull F1 car last winter, has thrown his hat into the ring for Bourdais' seat, heaping further pressure on SeaBass! That would be cool!

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/149682/1/b ... r_str.html

Loeb has since backtracked on his desires, but it wouldn't surprise me to see STR put new reserve driver Alguersuari in the seat for the rest of the season, keeping it warm for Loeb in 2010.

The promotional value for Red Bull would be large, and the fizzy drink specialist wouldn't lose much by letting Loeb escape the WRC. That championship is pretty much sh*t at the moment, with only two works teams. Yeah, the points battle has tightened with Loeb's struggles and Hirvonen's surge, but the WRC is a far cry from eight or nine years ago.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:37 pm

Two fun races today. The Toronto race was pretty good. It was too bad about Tracy and Helio. I thought both men did a good job of not letting tempers flare. Helio you can pretty well count on being a gentleman, but Paul is more unpredictable. Scheckter was a complete ass (unsurprisingly) and I hope some firm discipline is put on him for throwing his gloves at a moving vehicle. Franchitti drove a really good race and was the beneficiary of some good luck. The battle at the top of the points standings is shaping up to be a good one.

It was good to see Webber win in Germany today. Nurburgring is one of my favorite F1 courses. It's too bad about Lewis and Kimi. Had they stayed incident-free the race would have been more interesting in the points positions. And, how about Alonso? That guy is amazing. His drive today has to be one of the best of any driver of the season.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:39 pm

All congratulations to Webber; a long deserving victory, and he dominated the field. Pretty s*** race though, devoid of drama or actual on course racing. When the tension (I use the word lightly) is all about, "is driver A going to be clear of driver B in corner one after his pits?" it makes for a long slog.

I'm glad to see the field tighten, with both McLaren and Ferrari stepping up their game, and Alonso once again driving the living hell out of his car.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:47 pm

pk500 wrote: And World Rally Champion Sebastien Loeb, who tested a Red Bull F1 car last winter, has thrown his hat into the ring for Bourdais' seat, heaping further pressure on SeaBass! That would be cool!

It would be beyond cool. Who knows, as improbable as it may seem, Valentino Rossi for 2011? It's hard to imagine both Loeb and Rossi in F1, but if it does happen it will be insane, especially if Rossi goes to Ferrari. The hype factor in Italy would be off the charts. Rossi is a freaking genius on the track and if he got a good car I think he could do some serious damage. I think he would also become very quickly the most popular driver in formula one.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:28 pm

I have absolutely no idea how Barnhart came to the decision that put Franchitti in front of Tracy on the restart after Dario's pit stop. An atrocious piece of officiating, in my opinion. I understand letting Dario make the stop since he beat the yellow, but how does he get to keep his position?

And I'll leave it at this, but I am very glad there are no more races on ABC this season.

Another good non-oval race from the IndyCars though, a frantic, somewhat-out-of-control race with plenty of action from start all the way past the finish thanks to Moraes (who should be suspended for that bush league move).

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:35 pm

Dave wrote: Another good non-oval race from the IndyCars

When did they get the capability to do right turns?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:37 pm

Very chaotic, fun race today at Toronto. Too bad about Helio and PT, as PT deserved a good finish. Same with Conway, but his miscue was his fault, not the fault of dirty tires that he claimed.

I don't know what to make of the Helio-PT incident. Helio left PT a ton of room entering the right-hander, and PT took the opening. When the first contact occurred, Helio KNEW PT was there.

So I think it was dubious that the second bit of contact was caused by Helio losing grip of the wheel after their first bit of wheel banging, as Helio claimed. If the ABC producer was on the ball, he would have shown us the in-car camera shot that would have proved or disproved Helio's excuse. But that's too much to ask, I guess.

Either way, it was great to hear a driver -- any driver -- get booed so lustily by the crowd at an IndyCar Series race. Every series needs black hats, needs someone to arouse passion, and Helio is public enemy No. 1 at the next race, which just so happens to be July 26 in Canada, Edmonton!

Moraes' move on Viso after the race was dangerous and immature. Definitely merits sanction of some sort.

But Scheckter was an ass, Toon? Tomas had a hugely legitimate beef. Tagliani cornholed him and took him out of the race. That was a ridiculous dive-bomb attempt by Tags. He didn't even have his front wing even with Scheckter's gearbox, let alone his front wheel inside Schecky's rear wheel, when he tried that ill-fated pass attempt.

Take care,
PK

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:50 pm

Anyone know what an f1, nascar and indycar would run at a 1/4 mile drag strip? F1 would no doubt be the fastest, with Nascar coming in last due to the size and weight of the car and hp to weight would own it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:20 pm

fletcher21 wrote:Anyone know what an f1, nascar and indycar would run at a 1/4 mile drag strip? F1 would no doubt be the fastest, with Nascar coming in last due to the size and weight of the car and hp to weight would own it.

I've read where an F1 car tuned for a circuit and not the drag strip could do a quarter-mile in the low 8's.

Pretty amazing that an NHRA Pro Stock car could blow away an F1 car in the quarter by 1.5 seconds. Then again, an NHRA Pro Stock car has around 1,300 horsepower, about 400-500 more than an F1 car, and is tuned to do nothing but accelerate and go straight.

A Top Fuel dragster would leave an F1 car sitting at the line, literally and figuratively. But an NHRA Top Fueler also has around 7,000 horsepower.

No idea on an IndyCar or Cup car, although both would be slower, as you said. Much slower for a Cup car.

Take care,
PK