Soccer thread 08/09 (will have spoilers!)

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:24 pm

JRod wrote: We aren't good enough to advance against the soccer powers. So that means we might be able to get far only by playing lesser nations.

Of course we just beat the number one team in the world and ended their 35-game unbeaten streak at a meaningful tournament. This wasn't a meaningless friendly we are talking about here. Obviously we are good enough to beat a soccer power, as we just showed that today. And today's win was even better because we did not beat a Spanish side that played horribly. We beat them because we played well and made very few mistakes. Clearly making the semis at the World Cup is a different beast, but then again a lot of powers in the WC every year do not make the semis. Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:52 pm

toonarmy wrote: Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.

According to several of my buddies in the UK it was exactly that, a fluke. I watched the whole game, and I have been playing and watching soccer since I was in 3rd grade. That was a lucky and gutty win. If they play that game 10 times, I think Spain wins 8 or maybe even 9 of them. I am not against this team, but it was obvious the Us team was on a high and Spain was on a very big low. Their forward with the long hair had several chances that he would most likely bury usually, but failed today. Torres I think? This was a nice win at a cute little tournament, but as far as the world is concerned it was a fluke and American men's soccer is still a joke for the most part. I'm a fan of good soccer, and I don't care what team or country is playing it. If the Us can keep the game against Brazil to less than 3 goals I will be impressed. I am a bit bitter that I lost some $ on the game also

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:01 pm

don't worry, DaveT will be on here tomorrow talking about how there is no defense in La Liga, etc.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:01 pm

It's not like the US team can now go out and expect to beat the top teams regularly, but I wouldn't call it a fluke either. At the end of the day, how many difficult saves did Howard have to make? 2?

I'm not sure what chances you are thinking of, but Torres only got off one shot cleanly all night because he was constantly harassed, and that shot was well saved by Howard. That's not luck, that's tireless defending and organization.

Shortly before Jozy's goal, they showed a stat; the 'attacking third entries' were 23-11 Spain, but the scoring chances were 4-4. Obviously the US bunkered with the lead, but they don't have to apologize for that.

At the end of the day it was a deserved win. If the US plays Spain 10 times, Spain may win 7, 8 or even 9, but that doesn't make today's performance a fluke either.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:01 pm

fletcher21 wrote:
toonarmy wrote: Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.
According to several of my buddies in the UK it was exactly that, a fluke. I watched the whole game, and I have been playing and watching soccer since I was in 3rd grade. That was a lucky and gutty win. If they play that game 10 times, I think Spain wins 8 or maybe even 9 of them. I am not against this team, but it was obvious the Us team was on a high and Spain was on a very big low. Their forward with the long hair had several chances that he would most likely bury usually, but failed today. Torres I think? This was a nice win at a cute little tournament, but as far as the world is concerned it was a fluke and American men's soccer is still a joke for the most part. I'm a fan of good soccer, and I don't care what team or country is playing it. If the Us can keep the game against Brazil to less than 3 goals I will be impressed. I am a bit bitter that I lost some $ on the game also

Fletch be prepared for Toon to remind you of your race car abilities as well.

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:12 pm

Rodster wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:
toonarmy wrote: Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.
According to several of my buddies in the UK it was exactly that, a fluke. I watched the whole game, and I have been playing and watching soccer since I was in 3rd grade. That was a lucky and gutty win. If they play that game 10 times, I think Spain wins 8 or maybe even 9 of them. I am not against this team, but it was obvious the Us team was on a high and Spain was on a very big low. Their forward with the long hair had several chances that he would most likely bury usually, but failed today. Torres I think? This was a nice win at a cute little tournament, but as far as the world is concerned it was a fluke and American men's soccer is still a joke for the most part. I'm a fan of good soccer, and I don't care what team or country is playing it. If the Us can keep the game against Brazil to less than 3 goals I will be impressed. I am a bit bitter that I lost some $ on the game also
Fletch be prepared for Toon to remind you of your race car abilities as well.

That's cool, I know the truth I just am not gonna post up some subjective video to someone on the net that I don't know. Toon has a right to his opinion just like everyone else, but he seems realistic. Anyone who knows soccer knows Spain is a better team, and that was a lucky win. Not taking anything away from them. A betting man would have put money on Spain, plain and simple. The guy who scored the first goal was pretty entertaining. Nice Brandy Chastain-like celebration taking off his jersey haha.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:16 pm

I'm just messin with ya.

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Naples39 wrote:
I'm not sure what chances you are thinking of, but Torres only got off one shot cleanly all night because he was constantly harassed, and that shot was well saved by Howard. That's not luck, that's tireless defending and organization.

Possibly I have the wrong player. They had 2 or 3 really nice opportunities in the first 20 minutes or so. One especially on a crossing play where the forward (Torres) barely missed putting it on net and into the goal. Howard was solid, you're right. The US caught Spain at a perfect time in my opinion. I am anxious to see them play Brazil.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:46 pm

fletcher21 wrote:
toonarmy wrote: Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.
According to several of my buddies in the UK it was exactly that, a fluke.

According to my friends from the UK ANYTHING the US does in soccer is a fluke. Given the performance of the English team in recent memory all I can do is laugh at anyone from England dogging the US national team. And, as for today's game being a fluke, anyone who understands the sport and watched today's game is a complete fool for saying it was a fluke win. A surprising result? Yes. A fluke? Give me a break!

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:06 pm

Nice Brandy Chastain-like celebration taking off his jersey haha.

Wow....no male players have EVER done that celebration before

Improbable win....Yes

Lucky....No

The US deserved the win.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:06 pm

Rodster wrote: Fletch be prepared for Toon to remind you of your race car abilities as well.

Nah, I'll just remind him of what prompted the infamous racing videos stuff I've been ribbing him about:

fletcher21 wrote:Who is making things up? If you need video proof, send me a pm and I'll show you what's up and then you can give me an apology in this very thread. s*** is hilarious to me.

and

fletcher21 wrote:You'll get it. Sorry my life doesn't revolve around this site. It takes a while to upload videos, you know.

and

fletcher21 wrote:Do you even know me? I'm honest to a fault. If you must know, my gf recently was laid off from her job and I've been working like a mad man. Gotta support the family. I really don't have anything to prove to you, so it'll be up when it's up. Until then, feel free to label me a liar or whatever else you so choose DSP is serious business, I guess.

I really want to apologize to him badly, as he says I will need to do, but the connection speed in his neck of the woods is slower than Force India given that the videos were promised in late February. In any case, I can only gasp in awe at his great knowledge of soccer, along with the British friends he talked to after today's match.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:21 pm

davet010 wrote:Blimey, get a grip lads - you beat Egypt, currently ranked #40 in the world.

Naples, great analysis. And yes the US was lucky, but lucky underdogs win every week in club football in just these kinds of games. Nature of the sport.

The predominant question in my mind is what changed between the Italy/Brazil games and this one? The level of effort and intensity was clearly different. It seems that there may have been a sense of resignation at facing such daunting competition in the group stages, and that resignation changed to optimism after the Egypt game. It's one thing to face titans like Italy and Brazil in a group and another to do so where one good day and some breaks can deliver the game.

In any event it was a great win and props to Bradley for having the boys ready to fight.

Howard was immense. Altidore absolutely MUST get regular playing time with a club. He's a shambles in possession, but the strength, balance and technique displayed on the goal were impressive.

And Sergio Ramos remains a ticking time-bomb. Slow and steady Arbeloa would definitely be an improvement, even with the loss of Ramos' offensive contributions.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:14 am

wco81 wrote: Hmm, if this was in the WC, it would be bigger even than US-USSR in Olympics hockey.

Call it a miracle on grass, maybe not the World Cup, but still an American soccer echo of the US hockey team's upset of the Soviet Union at the 1980 Olympics. If indeed it was the WC, it's got to be classified as one of the biggest world upsets and Team USA should be darn proud of the result.

I don't think they are as bad as when they lost to Italy 3-1 while scoring first and many were hunting heads, and not as brilliant as this win suggests.

They defended very well, especially the last 15 minutes of the game when Spain threw everything at team USA and there's always some luck involved in a win. Howard, Donovan and Onyewu were really strong in their plays, especially the latter who's having a great time in this Cup and becoming a wall for the team. His aerial ability is amazing.

Spain definitely missed Iniesta and Villa and Torres just missed key opportunities. Personally, I was hoping for a Spain-Brazil final but this win has to rank high up in US's soccer history.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:23 am

Huge win, but let's back down from the hyperbolic comparison of this victory to the U.S. victory over the USSR in the 1980 Winter Olympics' ice hockey tournament.

That was amateurs against professionals. This was professionals against professionals.

That had the stage of the Olympic Games. This had the stage of a tournament that only soccer aficionados follow.

That had the backdrop of the Cold War. This had no political backdrop whatsoever.

But again, huge win in the annals of U.S. soccer. I'm really happy for the U.S. program. But the win doesn't compare with Lake Placid 1980. Not even close.

Take care,
PK

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:57 pm

toonarmy wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:
toonarmy wrote: Bottom line is we beat a major soccer power today 2-0 and it was not a fluke win.
According to several of my buddies in the UK it was exactly that, a fluke.
According to my friends from the UK ANYTHING the US does in soccer is a fluke. Given the performance of the English team in recent memory all I can do is laugh at anyone from England dogging the US national team. And, as for today's game being a fluke, anyone who understands the sport and watched today's game is a complete fool for saying it was a fluke win. A surprising result? Yes. A fluke? Give me a break!

A fluke is the same thing as a surprise. The US were playing their best while Spain went into zombie mode at the worst time. An average American team shutting out a team with a 451 minute shutout streak is more than just a surprise I'm sorry. And about the English fans, at least they produce some quality soccer players. Who does the US team have as their Beckham/Ronaldo/Ronaldinho/Messi go to player? No one outside of this country can name more than 2-3 players max. I am sorry but if you are comparing the English team as being on the same level as the Americans, you've lost some credibility here. I'm sure you saw this win coming, much like you predicted the Penguins as a team on the rise

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:44 pm

fletcher21 wrote:A fluke is the same thing as a surprise.

Horsesh*t.

A fluke is a victory over a superior opponent without merit. Let's say Spain dominated all aspects of the game against the U.S. and the Americans won, 1-0, on a deflected goal or an own goal.

A surprise is when a team of lesser caliber like the U.S. beats a superior team with smart, disciplined play, good tactics and a few breaks. That's what happened in the game yesterday.

Take care,
PK

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:03 pm

A fluke is defined as an accidental advantage.

A surprise is a unexpected occurrence.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:24 pm

pk500 wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:A fluke is the same thing as a surprise.
Horsesh*t.

A fluke is a victory over a superior opponent without merit. Let's say Spain dominated all aspects of the game against the U.S. and the Americans won, 1-0, on a deflected goal or an own goal.

Take care,
PK

Which is pretty much what happened - Spain had 29 shots (so much for good defence) and Howard was his usual shot-stopping self, US's first was a proper howler by Casillas with a one handed flap, and the second was an illustration of why Sergio Ramos is a bag of shite - you don't try trapping the ball and playing it in your own 6 yard box.

At the end of the day, it's the equivalent of a pre-season friendly.

miget33 · Post by **miget33** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:45 pm

davet010 wrote:
pk500 wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:A fluke is the same thing as a surprise.
Horsesh*t.

A fluke is a victory over a superior opponent without merit. Let's say Spain dominated all aspects of the game against the U.S. and the Americans won, 1-0, on a deflected goal or an own goal.

Take care,
PK
Which is pretty much what happened - Spain had 29 shots (so much for good defence) and Howard was his usual shot-stopping self, US's first was a proper howler by Casillas with a one handed flap, and the second was an illustration of why Sergio Ramos is a bag of shite - you don't try trapping the ball and playing it in your own 6 yard box.

At the end of the day, it's the equivalent of a pre-season friendly.

That's crap as well Dave, if England were to ever qualify and participate in this event, or had England been the one to upset Spain, you wouldn't be calling it a pre-season friendly

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:07 pm

LOL, so not only was it a fluke, but it was a meaningless fluke!

I'm sorry, but anyone who tries to paint this game as poor defense by the Americans and a game stolen by Howard clearly didn't watch it. Please feel free to criticize the very poor possession game by the US midfield and forwards, but criticizing the defensive performance just reveals ignorance about the match.

29 shots? All shots are not created equal. Not a single Spain shot was as good a look as Altidore had on the goal.

*cue comment about how Onyewu 'failed' during a loan to Newcastle and is therefore utterly incapable of ever playing well; and the same goes for Demerit and Bocanegra after their relatively brief time the EPL, therefore conclusively proving that the USA played poor defense yesterday*

Oh well, I'll just take this as a 'no, we don't have DaveT's approval to celebrate this win.'

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:33 pm

miget33 wrote:
davet010 wrote:
pk500 wrote: Horsesh*t.

A fluke is a victory over a superior opponent without merit. Let's say Spain dominated all aspects of the game against the U.S. and the Americans won, 1-0, on a deflected goal or an own goal.

Take care,
PK
Which is pretty much what happened - Spain had 29 shots (so much for good defence) and Howard was his usual shot-stopping self, US's first was a proper howler by Casillas with a one handed flap, and the second was an illustration of why Sergio Ramos is a bag of shite - you don't try trapping the ball and playing it in your own 6 yard box.

At the end of the day, it's the equivalent of a pre-season friendly.

That's crap as well Dave, if England were to ever qualify and participate in this event, or had England been the one to upset Spain, you wouldn't be calling it a pre-season friendly

Errm....we probably would have had a much more difficult qualification route than the USA, and in the final analysis this is a meaningless tournament devised by Sepp Blatter to distribute his patronage and largesse around the globe in order to keep his power base happy - and don't think otherwise.

Post by **Jared** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:53 pm

davet010 wrote:Which is pretty much what happened - Spain had 29 shots (so much for good defence) and Howard was his usual shot-stopping self, US's first was a proper howler by Casillas with a one handed flap, and the second was an illustration of why Sergio Ramos is a bag of shite - you don't try trapping the ball and playing it in your own 6 yard box.

At the end of the day, it's the equivalent of a pre-season friendly.

Spain had 29 total shots, but only 19 on goal (meaning 10 were blocked), with only eight on target. The game plan (especially after the US got the lead) was to clog the middle and cut out passing lanes in the final third of the pitch, forcing long shots or chances from crosses (hoping that Onyewu, Demerit, and Bocanegra would take care of most anything in the air, which they did). They did a great job of forcing Spain to play to their weaknesses, and played solid defense.

The US played against Spain last year in Spain in a friendly and did alright, only losing 1-0. (Didn't England lose 2-0 to Spain in a friendly this year?) I'm not saying the US would win the majority of matchups between the sides....Spain has a great squad. But this is not the same as if, for example, New Zealand beat Spain (no offense to NZ).

As for it being akin to a pre-season friendly, looking at the squads team brought, it's clear teams aren't treating this like a C tournament. It's not the WC, and its not the European Championships. My guess is that, had England qualified, they'd bring an A team like everyone else and treat it like a proper tournament, as has everyone else.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:11 pm

I know countries have brought an A squad....City are having to wait until they get back to announce the next wave of MONSTER signings

And no, none of them will be from the USA squad - DeMarcus Hopeless put us off fishing in that pond for a good few years yet.

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:16 pm

English fans as a whole despise American soccer. That's just a fact. Trying to change something that they grew up believing isn't gonna do much. In the words of my buddy in London "you lot could win the bloody world cup for all I care but you're never going to get the respect of anyone in Europe until you win time and again like the great teams from Europe have. Brazil will punish you furiously this upcoming match."

The above is a text he sent to me. Proof positive that Brits hate the US and think we should stick to baseball and basketball while they play "real football". I think it's kinda funny myself lol. I am pumped for the World Cup. This tournament reminds me of the World Baseball Classic. A cute little tournament but it doesn't have the glammor or the big stage of the WC. You can't take anything away from the American team, but it really is a kind of mediocre tourney. I'll put on my flame suit now.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:45 pm

fletcher21 wrote:English fans as a whole despise American soccer. That's just a fact. Trying to change something that they grew up believing isn't gonna do much. In the words of my buddy in London "you lot could win the bloody world cup for all I care but you're never going to get the respect of anyone in Europe until you win time and again like the great teams from Europe have. Brazil will punish you furiously this upcoming match."

The above is a text he sent to me. Proof positive that Brits hate the US and think we should stick to baseball and basketball while they play "real football". I think it's kinda funny myself lol. I am pumped for the World Cup. This tournament reminds me of the World Baseball Classic. A cute little tournament but it doesn't have the glammor or the big stage of the WC. You can't take anything away from the American team, but it really is a kind of mediocre tourney. I'll put on my flame suit now.

No Fletch, it's even worse than that - we don't really care about the US national team, because deep down we know that Americans by and large don't care about it either. I'd much rather than the World Cup, for example, is held in countries that do care even if the facilities aren't as good, because the WC should be about winning the title, not junketing by the rich and ignorant.

Call it snobbery if you will, but I think the worst thing that happened to the WC was its expansion to 32 teams, allowing more entrants from the much weaker confederations. And don't try to tell me that it increases the overall competence of those areas which have an increased representation, because I just don't see that being the case.