OT: Racing 2009 (Spoiler Alert)

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:36 pm

Rodster wrote:Another way to save money is to eliminate the employee(s) who walk around with the drivers when facing the media.

That's kind of like cutting your toenails to lose weight, in my opinion. I know it is easy to point to the PR and marketing side of racing and call it a waste of money, and I know first-hand how that can be true with some teams, but these teams are multi-multi-multi-million dollar marketing investments for their sponsors. As such, they require professionals to make sure the most visible part of that investment remains on message.

Yes, I'm biased

Speed costs money. That's been true in the past and will continue to be true in the future, and when you're trying to find tenths of a second, that quest will be VERY expensive.

Has the FIA ever said how they plan to enforce the budget cap? Thinking about Ferrari, I'm not sure how the FIA would know everything they do, especially when you consider their set-up with the Fiorano track on campus. I could very easily see them set up a sports car program to essentially test components for their F1 efforts.

Enough politics for me today, living through the CART/IRL split gave me more than my fill of racing political drama.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:59 pm

Thanks, Dave. You saved me a lot of typing.

The top PR people in F1 probably make around $250,000 per year, which is much more than their brethren in the U.S. Still, trimming $350,000 for two PR people to cut a $400 million budget is bit like trying to add water to the ocean by taking a piss at the shore.

James also has a great point. This is not spec racing. Every team manufactures its own chassis, gearbox, and most of the parts and pieces. The engineering that goes into each of these bits is beyond impressive. That requires manpower and cash.

Not to mention the logistical staffs that are responsible for sending race and test teams all over the globe for 11 months per year. Not to mention the marketing and sales staffs that must attract and satisfy global corporations who serve as sponsors.

It's ludicrous to think a current F1 team could function on a budget of $60 million. NASCAR Sprint Cup teams require approximately $20 million per year per car, and they never leave the U.S. They're also using technology that is absolutely paleolithic compared to F1.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:16 pm

Dave wrote:Enough politics for me today, living through the CART/IRL split gave me more than my fill of racing political drama.

At work earlier, tired, hungover and utterly utterly sick of FOTA and the FIA and whoever else might be involved today, I found myself trying and failing to comically muddle up driver names in the way that old Murray did when he called him Bunsen Jetton. I was doing this almost entirely to avoid having to answer any more questions from my workmates about splits and breakaways and Max, and it occurred to me that if I was prepared to sink that far to get away from politics, my current politics-free, racing-only stance must be a healthy one.

Allow me to continue that stance by saying that, even if there's a certain amount of underperformance around him, Sebastian Vettel's Q3 today was absolutely stunning.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:45 pm

Vettel is my definition of a damn good driver and on his way to be among the elite in the sport. Also Bernie has decidedly thrown his support for the rebel teams. So maybe there's hope that this all conclude with a comprise after all.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:23 pm

Hell of a qualifying wrap-up today Simo. I have to say it is even better than your usual efforts, the Kate's Dirty Sister of posts on your blog.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:35 am

What a dominant win by Vettel.

Ferrari had a good day today. Bourdais needs to clean his glasses. He ruined his own race as well as that of Hekkei. Lewis' car was just a handful for him to do anything with it. At one point he radioed in and said I need to come in early, "I have no grip". Team responds "negative, that won't work".

Nelson bested his teammate and no prize for Jenson. Overall fun race.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:59 pm

Rodster wrote:Bourdais needs to clean his glasses. He ruined his own race as well as that of Hekkei.

You could, of course, suggest that life would have been easier for Bourdais had Kovalainen maintained one line going into Vale, rather than the three separate ones he tried in the space of about a second. Whether Bourdais could have slowed it down in a million years is another thing, of course, but Kovy isn't blameless by any means.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:09 pm

Dave wrote:Hell of a qualifying wrap-up today Simo. I have to say it is even better than your usual efforts, the Kate's Dirty Sister of posts on your blog.

Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. The big problem over the next few races is that I'm running out of ways to rename Vettel's car. I thought I could always fall back on Nelson again but he beat Alonso today, so I could really be in schtuck before too long...

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:59 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
Rodster wrote:Bourdais needs to clean his glasses. He ruined his own race as well as that of Hekkei.
You could, of course, suggest that life would have been easier for Bourdais had Kovalainen maintained one line going into Vale, rather than the three separate ones he tried in the space of about a second. Whether Bourdais could have slowed it down in a million years is another thing, of course, but Kovy isn't blameless by any means.

I just saw the replay again and your right i'm wrong mate.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:22 pm

Both open-wheel races today were snoozers.

Iowa had its moments, but it wasn't the best short-track show, especially when you consider there were only 14 of 20 starters running just one-fifth into the race.

Silverstone was an absolute snoozer for all but a few laps. Brilliant drive by Vettel and some interesting action early in the race, followed by a halfway-decent scrap for fourth in the closing laps. But not much to shout about.

Sadly, F1 is reverting to old regs' (before this season) form when it comes to racing. It's becoming largely processional, with overtaking quite difficult among the top cars due to overreliance on aero. KERS also f*cks things up, as it allows slower leading cars to squirt ahead on the straightaway, making it almost impossible for quicker trailing cars without KERS to overtake. It should be eliminated for 2010, regardless of the series.

My only hope is that if FOTA launches a series, it creates a sweeping overhaul of the regs to encourage better racing.

It would be nice, even if only once, to see Vettel and Button actually go wheel-to-wheel for a victory or the lead in a meaningful race late in the season. I pray this isn't another season in which the tide turns so quickly in the factories that parity among the top two teams isn't achieved at least for one race.

Sure seems that Newey and Co. have found some magic with the Red Bull updates, while the Brawns looked fairly stagnant this weekend in comparison. Hopefully they have something in the pipeline at the factory.

The best thing about Hamilton's race was his big off into the grass, as we got a full frontal Nicole Scherzinger shot. Good Lord, she is SMOKING.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:40 pm

A lot of ideas that haven't worked out in F1. The racing is like it used to be. No one other than Ferrari is using KERS or wants to and the cars look like crap. I would love to see F1 like it used to be where passing was possible instead of leapfrogging your rival in the Pits.

The worst part of all of this is that all of it was mandated by Mosley and Co. It costs the teams millions upon millions to drastically change over their cars and introduce KERS and the racing is basically the same. At the same time Mosley wants the teams to spend less. To quote Kimi, "gee what a guy".

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:25 pm

Rodster wrote:The worst part of all of this is that all of it was mandated by Mosley and Co. It costs the teams millions upon millions to drastically change over their cars and introduce KERS and the racing is basically the same. At the same time Mosley wants the teams to spend less. To quote Kimi, "gee what a guy".

So true, dude. It's why I'm rooting for FOTA in this tussle. But I have serious questions about how long this team harmony will remain once a rival series takes flight.

Once the backstabbing starts, what will prevent the FOTA series from becoming anarchy if it's run by the teams? Who is going to run the show?

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:51 pm

pk500 wrote:
Rodster wrote:The worst part of all of this is that all of it was mandated by Mosley and Co. It costs the teams millions upon millions to drastically change over their cars and introduce KERS and the racing is basically the same. At the same time Mosley wants the teams to spend less. To quote Kimi, "gee what a guy".
So true, dude. It's why I'm rooting for FOTA in this tussle. But I have serious questions about how long this team harmony will remain once a rival series takes flight.

Once the backstabbing starts, what will prevent the FOTA series from becoming anarchy if it's run by the teams? Who is going to run the show?

Take care,
PK

As you well know that was part of the demise of CART and the beginning of the IRL. A racing series can't be run from within and the rules set from within, because they are competing against each other. No truer words have been spoken by Max and Bernie.

You need a figure head to run things. Where Max and the FIA went wrong and where I side with the teams is there was no consultation. One year the FIA issued a set of rules, the next year it's different, the following year it's radically different. Rinse, repeat.

All these decision as we all know has produced basically the same racing and the teams have blown millions of dollars on bad ideas because of Max and the FIA. That's why i'm kind of pleased in a way that Ferrari has come back strong in recent races because they designed their car around KERS which took their eye off the areo stuff and now they are the only ones using KERS.

Max should have gotten input from the teams and taken it into consideration and that's where he's to blame. With that said having someone objectively set the rules is much better than leaving it to the teams themselves to do it because competition breeds contempt and it will happen and won't work in the long haul. Right now FOTA is all lovey dovey and in harmony but that's only because it's them against the FIA and Max. Wait till they go racing and it won't be long before the bickering and in fighting will start again.

Max has dropped the lawsuit and said he wants to talk with the teams and we'll all see what's decided at the WMSC this Weds. Hopefully cool heads will prevail. I'm still hopeful.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:29 pm

Bernie thinks the breakaway series won't happen.

http://www.eatsleepsport.com/formula-on ... 14905.html

"If (a breakaway) started, everybody would be suing everybody else and there would be no other series.

"There would be nothing. It would be finished - it would be a total disaster. Everyone would spend a fortune on lawyers and nothing will happen."

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:40 pm

Because Top Gear has racing in it sometimes, because the man involved was a racing driver and because even if you might not be able to watch the embedded video (I don't know - I'm in the UK so it's a bit hard for me to tell) the story is fun:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8111588.stm

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:53 pm

On a side note, has anyone gone to Autoracing1.com or AR1? The guy running the site charges a subscription for news you can Google right from his headlines for free. Are people dumb enough not to know that?

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:41 pm

pk500 wrote:Both open-wheel races today were snoozers.

I agree. Too bad Fox picked Silverstone of all F1 races to show on national tv. I doubt they gained many new fans based on that race. I watched about 15 laps and was bored to tears. Turns out I didn't miss much. This season started out exciting and fresh, but it appears to be back to the same old same old formula where you can count on 1 hand the amount of exciting moments. The start of an F1 race is ALWAYS exciting, but after that it's hit or miss what kinda show you will get.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:37 am

The BBC is reporting that a deal has been struck between the FIA and FOTA so there will be no breakaway series.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 116756.stm

F1 resolution found, says Mosley

An agreement has been reached between Formula 1's governing body and the teams to prevent a breakaway series, says FIA president Max Mosley. The two parties had been engulfed in a bitter row over planned budgetary and technical changes for the new season.

But it appears a resolution has not been found, with Mosley agreeing not to stand for re-election as part of the deal "now there is peace," he said.

*^^^ This part doesn't make sense. Maybe it was a typo error.*^^^

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:56 am

Don't trust anything in this situation until both parties have acknowledged it. Max is trying to save face here, and he will say anything to make the press believe he is the white knight.

When FOTA acknowledges a truce, I'll believe it. Until then, there's a reason Max has brown eyes -- his entire body is full of sh*t.

But if the end result is that Max is gone after this fall, that could be a good thing. It all depends on his replacement. Plus there's still the 78-year-old problem known as Bernie, who continues to whore out the sport to the highest-bidding sultan or dictator in his efforts to help CVC recover its debt.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:07 pm

It's official a deal has been struck. Common sense has prevailed as both sides claim they were victorious.

F1 deal ends threat of breakaway
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 116756.stm

Peace in F1: the first details, compromises in rebel teams' favour
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 0141.shtml

Ferrari claims rebel teams' victory FOTA wins the F1 war
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 0725.shtml

No one lost F1 war, Mosley insists, Sport needs to be ''relaunched'' says di Montezemolo
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 5900.shtml

FIA release statement following meeting
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/6/9551.html

"After a meeting of the World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Wednesday, Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, issued the following statement:

All currently competing teams have committed to the FIA Formula One World Championship.

There will be no alternative series or championship and the rules for 2010 onwards will be the 2009 regulations as well as further regulations agreed prior to 29 April 2009."

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 pm

How does Montezemolo claim victory for FOTA if F1 is running in 2010 under the same regs and structure as this season, with changes agreed to before April 29?

Where's the "new F1" promised by FOTA?

This sure seems like a Band-Aid to me until I see more specifics. If all the two parties did was to agree to a united front, another civil war is inevitable unless FOTA's real problem all along was with Max, and not the current structure of the sport. And that's very possible.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:25 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 117712.stm

Interesting interview by Luca Di Montezemolo. He hinted that it's possible some FOTA teams might add a third car because of lower costs. No caps in place for 2009 and 2010 because budgetary caps will be in place for the 2011 season back to early 90's team budgets. At least that's how i've read into it, maybe some of you might see it a different way.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:50 pm

pk500 wrote:KERS also f*cks things up, as it allows slower leading cars to squirt ahead on the straightaway, making it almost impossible for quicker trailing cars without KERS to overtake. It should be eliminated for 2010, regardless of the series.

While I'm wholly in agreement with that - if, as seen in Turkey, an overtaking move can be immediately cancelled out by the overtaken driver pushing a button down the straight, that's not right, and if they've all got it then it's stalemate - that only one team ran KERS at Silverstone and still the racing was ordinary at best highlights how far the new regs have gone to promoting close racing: not far enough.

Rod, if Max Mosley left the battlefield with an arrow sticking out of one eye, he'd claim victory on the grounds that his other eye was still functioning perfectly. Is he leaving because there's an agreement or is the agreement because he's leaving? The 2010 grid is full, assuming the 3 new entrants have the funding in place to run without a budget cap (I've no idea how important that was in their plans, but I'd imagine that if they intend to go racing on 40 mil next year, the blue flag will be called into far more frequent service), so he'd argue that he has some of what he wanted. However, all of the cost-cutting and regulatory measures revealed so far are FOTA measures, not FIA ones, and the grid could surely have been filled another way if the teams are serious about the 'technical assistance' and 'reducing costs to early 1990s levels' (all bloody vague, this, isn't it?). It smacks of desperation from the outgoing President; outgoing, that is, as long as he keeps his word this time...

PK, as far as the "new F1" is concerned, surely that's what Max was proposing? FOTA's technical and regulatory blueprint is pretty much exactly the one we're apparently getting for next year, isn't it? If I've understood the commercial aspect of things properly, the teams are committed on an open-ended basis to the FIA but only through 2012 to FOM, with separate agreements presumably giving scope to tackle the financial issues down the line.

Not that it means anything. I could tackle Jonah Lomu but I wouldn't knock him over.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:31 pm

FOTA played chicken with Max and Max had to flinch. I am impressed. Although it would have been interesting to see what a different series could come up with in terms of venues and rules, it's good that the sport is staying unified. I think FOTA served warning enough this go around that they are not playing around. Hopefully this will bring more stability and continuity to F1 over the coming years than the mess we've been getting from Max and Bernie over the past few seasons. There is only so much that needs to be changed radically from year to year. Hats off to FOTA for not buckling early on like a lot of people predicted they would do.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:11 am

Interesting article over at the BBC. The Winners and losers of yesterday's agreement. The big winner FOTA !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... _this.html

Excerpt:

"And the old divide-and-conquer game that Ecclestone and Mosley used to play to keep the teams under control will no longer be possible.

Perhaps the most striking development to come out of all of this is that it has become clear that there are now three major forces in F1 - Ecclestone through his F1 Management (FOM) company, the FIA and Fota. And Fota is arguably the most powerful.

Fota's aims include: securing the place of countries with a rich F1 history on the calendar; at least one race in America; fewer races in places where no-one wants to watch; better TV coverage; cheaper ticket prices; disparity of cars and engines between the teams; and that the sport should not be owned by a venture capital company that squeezes out half its profits.

For fans of the sport, the end to this crisis in F1 could turn out to be just the beginning of the good news."